Indulgences

[Cat]

Thanks, RNRobert. Excellent Scripture reference.

Often, whenever I talk about my experiences in that church, Christians tell me, “You haven’t truly forgiven them or you wouldn’t be thinking about it.”

Not so. I merely want other people to know about the experience to help others who might be facing the same situation. Frankly, I think that churches shouldn’t hurt people. (When I say “churches,” of course I am referring to the people in the church, which is the Protestant understanding of church.)

There are websites and books about people who have been terribly betrayed and hurt by their churches. We’ve heard worse stories than ours. Certainly nothing is as awful as the priest sex abuse scandal and I don’t wish to trivialize the agony of those who have been involved with that.

But for those who have been betrayed in some other way, their pain is real, too. Yet, churches (people) continue to sweep the ones they hurt out of the back door and “wish them into the cornfield.”

Well, I found my way out of the cornfield, through the mercy of God, and I want churches (people) to STOP hurting their own people, and I want all to know that churches (people) who DO hurt their own people will be held accountable by GOD. Even if they think they’ve gotten away with it and God has forgiven them anyway, their sin will be purged eventually.

 

[Odell]

But it says that the person will be saved “as through a fire” and that some may enter heaven with the smell of smoke on their garments! I don’ t know about you,but having had my dwelling burn down with me in it I can tell y ou for sure that a person does not remain unaffected by such an experience.

Just curious but does it say that some may enter heaven with the smell of smoke on their garments. I have not heard of this and I like it and would like to use it but can not find it.

 

[RNRobert]

Just curious but does it say that some may enter heaven with the smell of smoke on their garments. I have not heard of this and I like it and would like to use it but can not find it.

I believe it’s a reference to 1 Corinthians 3:15.

 

[guanophore]

Just curious but does it say that some may enter heaven with the smell of smoke on their garments. I have not heard of this and I like it and would like to use it but can not find it.

Yes, I Cor 3:15 is one reference to purgatory.

another is

Heb 6:7-8
7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

Notice that it is “near to being cursed” but will be burned. This is a person who was saved, but did not live out their salvation. they were blessed by God, rained upon, but did not produce fruit, or produced bad fruit.

But I was thinking of Jude 22-23 "And have mercy on some who are wavering; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy on still others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies. "

That struck me this week, because this week the Church celebrates the neophytes. In the olden days, the newly baptized wore their white baptismal garments all week, only taking them off after Mass on this Sunday. If a person was living on the edge of hell, then their garment (wedding, or baptismal) would smell of smoke. It happens to me whenever I barbeque!

Rev 3:3-6
4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

 

[RNRobert]

Thanks, RNRobert. Excellent Scripture reference.

Thank you! :tiphat:

Often, whenever I talk about my experiences in that church, Christians tell me, “You haven’t truly forgiven them or you wouldn’t be thinking about it.”

Not so. I merely want other people to know about the experience to help others who might be facing the same situation. Frankly, I think that churches shouldn’t hurt people. (When I say “churches,” of course I am referring to the people in the church, which is the Protestant understanding of church.)

There are websites and books about people who have been terribly betrayed and hurt by their churches. We’ve heard worse stories than ours. Certainly nothing is as awful as the priest sex abuse scandal and I don’t wish to trivialize the agony of those who have been involved with that.

But for those who have been betrayed in some other way, their pain is real, too. Yet, churches (people) continue to sweep the ones they hurt out of the back door and “wish them into the cornfield.”

Well, I found my way out of the cornfield, through the mercy of God, and I want churches (people) to STOP hurting their own people, and I want all to know that churches (people) who DO hurt their own people will be held accountable by GOD. Even if they think they’ve gotten away with it and God has forgiven them anyway, their sin will be purged eventually.

Years ago, I had a tract by a Protestant minister called Don’t Shoot the Wounded, and it dealt with problems similar to what you experienced.

BTW, I like the “wish them into the cornfield” part. Good Twilight Zone reference!

 

[Odell]

Yes, I Cor 3:15 is one reference to purgatory.

another is

Heb 6:7-8
7 For land which has drunk the rain that often falls upon it, and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed; its end is to be burned.

Notice that it is “near to being cursed” but will be burned. This is a person who was saved, but did not live out their salvation. they were blessed by God, rained upon, but did not produce fruit, or produced bad fruit.

But I was thinking of Jude 22-23 "And have mercy on some who are wavering; 23 save others by snatching them out of the fire; and have mercy on still others with fear, hating even the tunic defiled by their bodies. "

That struck me this week, because this week the Church celebrates the neophytes. In the olden days, the newly baptized wore their white baptismal garments all week, only taking them off after Mass on this Sunday. If a person was living on the edge of hell, then their garment (wedding, or baptismal) would smell of smoke. It happens to me whenever I barbeque!

Rev 3:3-6
4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who conquers shall be clad thus in white garments, and I will not blot his name out of the book of life; I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

Yes but you also said that some will enter with the smell of smoke. Does scripture say that? If it does I would liike to know the verse.

 

[RNRobert]

Yes but you also said that some will enter with the smell of smoke. Does scripture say that? If it does I would liike to know the verse.

1 Cor 3:15 comes closest:

3:11. For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.
3:12. Now, if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble:
3:13. Every man’s work shall be manifest. For the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire. And the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.
3:14. If any man’s work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
3:15. If any mans work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

 

[Odell]

1 Cor 3:15 comes closest:

Ok another question
I know you dont suffer in heaven and you cant suffer loss in hell then get out. And if it was just your works that you are not suposed to have anyway acording to protestants than it would not be suffering you should be happy that your works ared burned it would not be suffering.

But if purgatory is the final stage of santification and it is a purification why is it that we suffer?

 

[RNRobert]

Ok another question
I know you dont suffer in heaven and you cant suffer loss in hell then get out. And if it was just your works that you are not suposed to have anyway acording to protestants than it would not be suffering you should be happy that your works ared burned it would not be suffering.

But if purgatory is the final stage of santification and it is a purification why is it that we suffer?

My take on it would be that the suffering is due to the relinquishing of self necessary to enter into heaven. Have you ever offended somebody and then apologized? Remember how hard it felt to admit you were wrong (especially if you have alot of pride)? I think the sufferings of purgatory are that kind of pain. Also, perhpas regret that we didn’t serve the Lord more in our life. But that’s just speculation.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Oh, its better than that!! The sin is:nope: not just covered!! The sin will have all been washed away!!! Praise God!! I don’t have to see my Lord & Saviour for the 1st time face to face, with all that old muck just out of sight!! It will no longer exist.

Well, but then you might not get to Heaven at all!!
No, we are all of us “working out our salvation with fear & trembling”…

I think that the reason that a lot of Protestants have problems with the idea of purgatory, is that a lot of us have the wrong picture of it in our heads.
It was a great revelation to me, the first time that somebody explained it, as being a cleansing process that we go through when we die… That is how I think of it now: Purgatory is the chance to take a nice hot bath, shampoo my hair, brush my teeth & put on fresh clothing before I meet the Master.
Isn;t that how we all would like to be, when we meet some important person here on earth??? How much more, then, should we wish for the same thing, before we meet the King of kings & Lord of lords??
Not clutching my garments around me, in the:blush: hopes that nothing shows…
Scripture tells us that we will be “changed into His image”. His image is perfection! So He will give us the chance for that dip in the spiritual tub.

HTH!

My turn on the confusion section

you correct me when I said covered by His Blood with it also washing away.

Then what you say after about the spiritual tub and getting washed up…

Why would we need “washing” if we are already washed??

just wondering . . . .

 

[Kitty_Chan]

At the Most basic level, yes. Both bestow a kindness from God, administered by His Priests to His people.

The word indulgence originally meant kindness or favor;

The word blessing; “the priests [of the OT] at the express direction of God were wont to administer it to the people. “Thus shall you bless the children of Israel. . . and the Lord will turn His countenance and give them peace””

Ok I get that, but do you think only priests can bless?

Because if Ive recieved a blessing then there is not always a priest/pastor around. Not too mention for example Ive been speaking to someone and they have blessed me with something they have said. once again just wondering.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Ok I get that, but do you think only priests can bless?

Because if Ive recieved a blessing then there is not always a priest/pastor around. Not too mention for example Ive been speaking to someone and they have blessed me with something they have said. once again just wondering.

Not only that, but a blessing may be attached to an object.
Holy water - carries its blessing whereever it goes.
Blessed salt - the same.
Oil - for anointing of the sick - “Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the Church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And if they have committed sins, these will be forgiven.”
Or, a blessing or indulgence can be formally attached to an action - like reading the Bible.
These formal things belong to the Church and the Church distributes them for the benefit of all.
But maybe the most common expression among Catholics that I know of is ‘God Bless’ but it does not formally carry a prayer from the Church like the above do, its just an expression of goodwill or a type of prayer for the person.
So, to answer your question, not only can the person bless, but so can the priest.
And not only can the priest bless but so can the Pope.
And not only can the Pope bless but so can God - through His Church, through His Pope, Bishops, priests and people formally or informally.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Not only that, but a blessing may be attached to an object.
Holy water - carries its blessing whereever it goes.
Blessed salt - the same.
Oil - for anointing of the sick - “Are any among you sick? They should call for the elders of the Church and have them pray over them, anointing them with oil in the name of the Lord. And their prayer offered in faith will heal the sick, and the Lord will make them well. And if they have committed sins, these will be forgiven.”
Or, a blessing or indulgence can be formally attached to an action - like reading the Bible.
These formal things belong to the Church and the Church distributes them for the benefit of all.
But maybe the most common expression among Catholics that I know of is ‘God Bless’ but it does not formally carry a prayer from the Church like the above do, its just an expression of goodwill or a type of prayer for the person.
So, to answer your question, not only can the person bless, but so can the priest.
And not only can the priest bless but so can the Pope.
And not only can the Pope bless but so can God - through His Church, through His Pope, Bishops, priests and people formally or informally.

ok interesting thanks, that clears it up nicely. I know the water and the oil.

another question regarding superstition, my catholic friend struggles. She had a fung shi person in and they put salt under the bed and around the house to ward off evil spirits. or absorb them I cant remember exactly. How does the Holy Salt work in the Catholic Church?? I assume the water is sprinkled around the house what about the salt is it left in pots around ??

I told her to dump them and she was afraid to, they were put there by a hucksuckler fung shei lady selling fear and oppresion. But perhaps theres a catholic “thing” rolling in the back of her head if you know what I mean. Which is unfortunetely supporting these salt bowls put there by the fung shei lady.

how does the salt work?

 

[I_Leatherman]

Salt
Blessings
Sacramentals
Consecration
Indulgences
I suppose salt is used in much the same way as water.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

From what I can see about the salt I think I didnt oppose any Catholic teaching for her to remove the bowls of salt from under the bed and by the doors etc. Is that what you see too.??

Besides I guess I could add that a Priest didnt bless them anyway and He wouldnt put them all over the hour as well.

Just want to check Im on the right track.

 

[grace2020]

I’m new. I hope I am posting this in the right place.

I came across this Catholic IQ test – concernedcatholics.org/iq-test.htm – and missed this question:

22. Which of the following is NOT true about indulgences?

1. An indulgence is the remission granted by the church of temporal punishment due to sin after guilt has been forgiven
2. The basic requirement for indulgences is a real internal and complete conversion to God.
3. Indulgences are often the object of much misunderstanding and abuse.
4. An indulgence is one way to merit God’s mercy and forgiveness for sin
5. An indulgence is one way the church expresses God’s mercy and forgiveness

All the answers seemed true to me. The answer is 4.

Can anyone here tell me why answer 4 is not true?

Thanks,
Grace

 

[guanophore]

My turn on the confusion section

you correct me when I said covered by His Blood with it also washing away.

Then what you say after about the spiritual tub and getting washed up…

Why would we need “washing” if we are already washed??

just wondering . . . .

John 13:8-11
8 Peter said to him, “You shall never wash my feet.” Jesus answered him, “If I do not wash you, you have no part in me.” 9 Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, not my feet only but also my hands and my head!” 10 Jesus said to him, “He who has bathed does not need to wash, except for his feet, but he is clean all over; and you are clean, but not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was to betray him; that was why he said, “You are not all clean.”

Because we are walking in a sinful world, and our feet get dust on them.

 

[Kitty_Chan]

Because we are walking in a sinful world, and our feet get dust on them.

ok

 

[I_Leatherman]

I’m new. I hope I am posting this in the right place.

I came across this Catholic IQ test – concernedcatholics.org/iq-test.htm – and missed this question:

22. Which of the following is NOT true about indulgences?

1. An indulgence is the remission granted by the church of temporal punishment due to sin after guilt has been forgiven
2. The basic requirement for indulgences is a real internal and complete conversion to God.
3. Indulgences are often the object of much misunderstanding and abuse.
4. An indulgence is one way to merit God’s mercy and forgiveness for sin
5. An indulgence is one way the church expresses God’s mercy and forgiveness

All the answers seemed true to me. The answer is 4.

Can anyone here tell me why answer 4 is not true?

Thanks,
Grace

"WHAT AN INDULGENCE IS NOT
To facilitate explanation, it may be well to state what an indulgence is not. It is not a permission to commit sin, nor a pardon of future sin; neither could be granted by any power. It is not the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; it supposes that the sin has already been forgiven. It is not an exemption from any law or duty, and much less from the obligation consequent on certain kinds of sin, e.g., restitution; on the contrary, it means a more complete payment of the debt which the sinner owes to God. It does not confer immunity from temptation or remove the possibility of subsequent lapses into sin. Least of all is an indulgence the purchase of a pardon which secures the buyer’s salvation or releases the soul of another from Purgatory. The absurdity of such notions must be obvious to any one who forms a correct idea of what the Catholic Church really teaches on this subject. "

From here…

 

[I_Leatherman]

From what I can see about the salt I think I didnt oppose any Catholic teaching for her to remove the bowls of salt from under the bed and by the doors etc. Is that what you see too.??

Besides I guess I could add that a Priest didnt bless them anyway and He wouldnt put them all over the hour as well.

Just want to check Im on the right track.

If it is not blessed salt I cannot imagine how you would have opposed any Catholic teaching…its just salt.