Indult Mass and Rights

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Herrobp

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I am a Catholic who attends an indult mass in Cincinnati. I also attend the English mass when I can’t make the Tridentine mass, and will soon be married (in an English mass). I have some serious questions.

I have read that every Catholic has the right to attend a Tridentine mass if they desire.
  1. If that is the case, isn’t it also the right of any priest to pray the Tridentine mass if he so desires?
  2. So then why is an indult required?
  3. Is it indeed required by Church law for a priest to obtain an indult to say that mass, or has that just become the de facto norm?
  4. Finally I read (in the Wanderer–I think) that the Holy Father was going to explicity acknowledge this right through a “universal indult” this year. What has come of this?
If you can help, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks!
 
Catholics have the priviledge of attending Mass, they don’t however have the right to a particular Mass.

Each Bishop determines what priest can say what Masses in his diocese, unless he is overruled by the Vatican.

Since the Tridentine Mass is not the norm, it needs an indult.

Cardinal Arinze spopke on this at length on EWTN with Raymond Arroyo recently.
 
But in his Apostolic Letter, Ecclesia Dei ( July 2, 1988 ), the Holy Father said:

"To all those Catholic faithful who feel attached to some previous liturgical and disciplinary forms of the Latin tradition, I wish to manifest my will to facilitate their ecclesial communion by means of the necessary measures to guarantee respect for their rightful aspirations. In this matter I ask support of the Bishops and of all those engaged in the pastoral ministry in the Church.

“By virtue of my Apostolic Authority I Decree … respect must everywhere be shown for the feelings of those who are attached to the Latin liturgical tradition, by a wide and generous application of the directives already issued some time ago by the Apostolic See, for the use of the Roman Missal … of 1962.” (Emphasis added.)

The Holy Father views an attachment to the Tridentine mass as a “rightful aspiration”. Doesn’t “rightful” indicate the existence of a right?
 
1., 2. ‘Ecclesia Dei’ recognises rightful ASPIRATIONS TO the Tridentine Mass, not a RIGHT TO the Tridentine Mass whenever you want it. You have a rightful aspiration which the Pope has said Bishops should respect. But Priests don’t have the RIGHT to celebrate the Tridentine Mass, they act as Priests only under the authority of the Bishop, the ‘steward of the mysteries of God’ in the Diocese. Therefore, a Priest of the Latin Rite of the Church must celebrate the normative Latin Rite Mass (the ‘Novus Ordo’), unless given permission otherwise.
3. Therefore an indult is required by Canon Law.
4. Cardinal Arinze said there was and is never to be a ‘universal indult’ for the Tridentine Mass, but that the CDW document ‘Redemptionis Sacramentum’ says that priest may always and everywhere celebrate Mass in Latin. But ‘Mass’ means the normative rite of Mass for the Roman Catholic Church - the ‘Novus Ordo’. So an indult must be given to use the superceded version (1962) of the ‘Missale Romanum’.
 
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Trevelyan:
1., 2. ‘Ecclesia Dei’ recognises rightful ASPIRATIONS TO the Tridentine Mass, not a RIGHT TO the Tridentine Mass whenever you want it. You have a rightful aspiration which the Pope has said Bishops should respect. But Priests don’t have the RIGHT to celebrate the Tridentine Mass, they act as Priests only under the authority of the Bishop, the ‘steward of the mysteries of God’ in the Diocese. Therefore, a Priest of the Latin Rite of the Church must celebrate the normative Latin Rite Mass (the ‘Novus Ordo’), unless given permission otherwise.
3. Therefore an indult is required by Canon Law.
4. Cardinal Arinze said there was and is never to be a ‘universal indult’ for the Tridentine Mass, but that the CDW document ‘Redemptionis Sacramentum’ says that priest may always and everywhere celebrate Mass in Latin. But ‘Mass’ means the normative rite of Mass for the Roman Catholic Church - the ‘Novus Ordo’. So an indult must be given to use the superceded version (1962) of the ‘Missale Romanum’.
Actually its requirement is not in Canon law

The indult is required by papal authority, not canon law.

Can. 2 For the most part the Code does not determine the rites to be observed in the celebration of liturgical actions. Accordingly, liturgical laws which have been in effect hitherto retain their force, except those which may be contrary to the canons of the Code.

And an indult just means permission to deviate from a law. In the US we have an indult for communion in hand, for moving Asension to Sunday if the bishop desires, etc. These are not in canon law always, but liturgical law

And there is an issue of immemorial custom and whether or no Paul VI aborogated the old Rite. It was the opinion fof the 1986 commission that he did not. However, at least with Ecclesia Dei adflicta I think one can say the old rite was derogated, that is the provisions of Quo Primum were changed as far as new legillation has been passed superceding it, but not totally

As for the original questions
  1. No one has the right to say Mass. However Catholics do have the right to have Mass in the rite of their sui iuris Church. Nevertheless that doesn’t really apply to the Missal of John XXIII, for the rite is that of Paul VI. It was argued, previously, that because Paul VI did not aborogate the old rite, that priests had the privilege intact of using it privately but not for public Mass.
  2. Notwithstanding controversy about the legal status of the Missal of John XXIII, an indult is required, generally, in order to deviate from norms. The Pauline Mass is the norm, ergo an indult is necessary, such as one is needed for communion in hand, which is against immemorial custom as well as universal law.
  3. Techinically an indult is not required for a private Mass. The local Ordinary must grant the indult for a public Mass. He can also grant such permission for a private Mass. However a priest with a celebret (from the PCED) may celebrated the old rite, even if the local Ordinary objects, in a private Mass. Public Mass always requires the indult.
  4. That was a rumor. Contrary to Arinze, there might very well be future permission. But it is unlikely. Ratzinger, who supports a wider use of the old rite, doesn’t even support the universal indult. Indeed there are issues with one.
 
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Trevelyan:
  1. Cardinal Arinze said there was and is never to be a ‘universal indult’ for the Tridentine Mass, but that the CDW document ‘Redemptionis Sacramentum’ says that priest may always and everywhere celebrate Mass in Latin. But ‘Mass’ means the normative rite of Mass for the Roman Catholic Church - the ‘Novus Ordo’. So an indult must be given to use the superceded version (1962) of the ‘Missale Romanum’.
So, if I understand you correctly, a priest may say the Novus Ordo mass in latin, but the 1962 mass used different rubrics. To use the prior rubrics, the priest would need permission from his bishop?

Sorry for the ignorance, but I am a post VII baby. I have attended a latin mass (normal mass in latin), but from what I am reading this is not the Tridentine mass of the 1962 Missal? I think I am confused.

Thanks,

John
 
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Lurch104:
So, if I understand you correctly, a priest may say the Novus Ordo mass in latin, but the 1962 mass used different rubrics. To use the prior rubrics, the priest would need permission from his bishop?

Sorry for the ignorance, but I am a post VII baby. I have attended a latin mass (normal mass in latin), but from what I am reading this is not the Tridentine mass of the 1962 Missal? I think I am confused.

Thanks,

John
They are two seperate Missals

latinliturgy.com/masstexts.html

For example the former always had ad orientem prayer (facing liturgical East), prayers at the foot of the altar, no vernacular hymns at High and Solemn High Mass (there is not even a distinction between Low Mass and High Mass in the new Mass), the Last Gospel (read after the dismissal, “Ite Missa Est”), the subdeacon (now abolished as an order in the Latin Rite), incense allowed only at Solemn High Mass (indult in the US for Missa Cantanta, or just High Mass), silent Canon and consercration, kneeling for communion, only one Canon (the EP I or Roman Canon), different formula for consercration, etc.

A lot of what is optional was required, like a paten (which is no longer optional actually) and kneeling for communion. And while the readings in a NO Latin Mass are generally vernacular, they were Latin in the old, said facing south/south-east for the Epistle, and north/north-east for the Gospel.

latinliturgy.com/masstexts.html

This is the Missals (and translation) in Latin of both Missals by the LLA
 
Yes they are two seperate missals, but they are actually an old and a new edition of the same document: Missale Romanum.

Ichthus, thank you for your correction re Canon Law. By the way - I heard and saw Card. Arinze say that there is to be be no universal indult. It’s not a rumour. Of course, anything could happen in the future.
 
Ok I thought this thread might help me understand some of these terms and what they mean. I went to latin mass today, it was magnificant that much I know for sure. But please define:

indult

tridentine

What I attended today was a ‘High’ Mass, the parish I attended also holds a ‘low’ latin mass. And next weekend our diocese is offering a ‘pontifical’ mass. This is all (literally) latin to me.
Forgive me I’m sure many of you learned this in your Religious education classes, I am a product of public schooling and a new convert to Catholicism.
 
Kevin - Tridentine refers to the “rite” (i.e. in accordance with the Missal of 1962)

Where as Indult refers to the “Right” (i.e. permission granted to celebrate the Mass using the 1962 missal).

There are both high and low Masses in the Tridentine Rite. The high Mass is most beautiful to witness because it is sung and more formal.
 
A missal is the book with all of the prayers for the Mass. The ordinary of the Mass is the same all the time. The Proper of the Mass changes.

The word Tridentine comes from “Trent”. At the council of Trent, which was called in answer to the Reformation, the Pope (one of the Pius) declared the Mass to be the Mass of the Catholic Church forever.

There are many people who do not like the Novus Ordo (New Order) Mass. There are many, many reasons they can cite as to why we should not have changed it. The Piux X Society was started after Vatican II by Archbishop Lefebvre in protest. He said he wanted to be able to say the Tridentine Mass.

Just do a search for Traditional Catholics and you’ll find a whole hosts of sites.
 
But be careful, not all the “sites” will take you to legitimate “licit” traditional Catholic Mass sites.

SSPX have traditional Masses but are considered to be in schism with the Catholic Church. Their Masses are valid but not licit. Their priests can validly celebrate the Mass and consecrate the host but they cannot hear confessions and absolve sins.

Now you are really lost, right?

Wherever you went to a Tridentine Mass, they should have offered you a red booklet (which has the order of the Mass) and and on one side is the Latin and the other the English with instructions of when to sit, stand, etc.

Next time you go, seek out the priest after Mass or the usher and ask some of your questions about the Mass.

The FFSP Fraternity of St. Peter has a good web site and this particular page explains a lot about the Tridentine (Traditional Latin Mass) fssp.org/en/liturgie1962.htm
 
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deogratias:
But be careful, not all the “sites” will take you to legitimate “licit” traditional Catholic Mass sites.

SSPX have traditional Masses but are considered to be in schism with the Catholic Church. Their Masses are valid but not licit. Their priests can validly celebrate the Mass and consecrate the host but they cannot hear confessions and absolve sins.

Now you are really lost, right?

Wherever you went to a Tridentine Mass, they should have offered you a red booklet (which has the order of the Mass) and and on one side is the Latin and the other the English with instructions of when to sit, stand, etc.

Next time you go, seek out the priest after Mass or the usher and ask some of your questions about the Mass.

The FFSP Fraternity of St. Peter has a good web site and this particular page explains a lot about the Tridentine (Traditional Latin Mass) fssp.org/en/liturgie1962.htm
I appreciate the concern, I am aware of the SSPX controversey, I’ve read a bit here and there. There are several members of SSPX that frequent Free Republic (www.freerepublic.com) another message board I frequent.

I am certain the service I attended is licit. Here is the diocese page
holyrosaryindy.org/. The did have the those books you mentioned, I just didn’t know that was called a ‘missal’ heh.
 
This pretty much locks it in I think- what I went to was a licit mass.

Found on the FSSP website:

Archdiocese of Indianapolis, IN
  • **Fr. Dennis Duvelius, FSSP, Associate Pastor
    **
  • **Holy Rosary Church
    520 Stevens St.
    Indianapolis, IN 46203
    tel (317) 636-4478
    fax (317) 636-2522
    Sunday 9:30 a.m.
    Monday-Friday 12:00 noon
    Tuesday & Thursday 5:45 p.m. (during Lent only)
    Wednesday & Friday 5:45 p.m. (except during Lent)
    Saturday 9:00 a.m. **
 
Kevin,

The Mass at Holy Rosary is fully licit. The pastor of that parish is the Vicar General (sort of the second-in-command behind the Archbishop) of the Archdiocese, so you can be sure that there’s nothing illegal going on.

You (and anyone else within traveling distance who is reading this) don’t want to miss the Pontifical Mass next Sunday.

12:30, Sacred Heart Church
1530 Union St, Indianapolis, IN
 
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kjvail:
This pretty much locks it in I think- what I went to was a licit mass.

Found on the FSSP website:

Archdiocese of Indianapolis, IN
  • Fr. Dennis Duvelius, FSSP, Associate Pastor
  • Holy Rosary Church 520 Stevens St. **Indianapolis, IN 46203 ****tel (317) 636-4478 ****fax (317) 636-2522 ****Sunday 9:30 a.m. **Monday-Friday 12:00 noon Tuesday & Thursday 5:45 p.m. (during Lent only) Wednesday & Friday 5:45 p.m. (except during Lent) **Saturday 9:00 a.m. **
Well you can’t do any better than that when looking for a Traditional Latin Mass. You next step might be to contact one of the priests there and let them know of your interest in learning more about the Catholic Church God Bless you and may the Holy Spirit continue to lead you home.
 
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smn:
Kevin,

The Mass at Holy Rosary is fully licit. The pastor of that parish is the Vicar General (sort of the second-in-command behind the Archbishop) of the Archdiocese, so you can be sure that there’s nothing illegal going on.

You (and anyone else within traveling distance who is reading this) don’t want to miss the Pontifical Mass next Sunday.

12:30, Sacred Heart Church
1530 Union St, Indianapolis, IN
I wouldn’t miss it! Have you been to Sacred Heart before? I have not but I pulled up their website they have a online photo gallery - WOW it’s incredible

michellestrahl.tripod.com/sacredheartofjesuscatholicchurch/id14.html
You next step might be to contact one of the priests there and let them know of your interest in learning more about the Catholic Church God Bless you and may the Holy Spirit continue to lead you home.
I am planning on taking the RCIA classes this year, me and my wife made the decision to join the Church in about October of last year, so I was a little too late. I’m grateful in a way - I have had months to devour all the theology I can find online.
 
RCIA meets weekly on Wednesday evenings from 7pm to 9pm during the months of September thru May. Meetings are held at the Sacred Heart Parish Hall at 1125 South Meridian. All are welcome. For more information call Shirley Ooley at 317-638-5551.

From the web site you posted - so looks like you will have a few months to wait as you say - that will give you lots of time to learn about the Mass first.
 
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