Infallability

[PJM]

And do what with it? Interpret it? How do you think you got the myriads of protestant denominations that exist today? The source is authoritative but the interpretation is not. Protestants would like to wrap themselves in the mantle of Holy Scripture because they know full well that by their denial of any authority other than scripture they have no authority to interpret scripture so their interpretations leaves them naked.

Allow me please to add a biblical support to this important message.

AFTER ALL THE CC IS THE ONE TRUE BIBLE CHURCH *

Matt.16 Verses 15 to 19: "He [JESUS] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [YOU] I [JESUS] will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [19]*** I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven***, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Eph. 2:19-20 ** "So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophetsB]*, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit".

**Eph. 4: 4 -8 **“There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs[/COLOR]] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, Only One God] ***one faith, ***Only One set of doctrine and dogmas] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

“Binding and Loosing” were common rabitical Terms for FREE and Unlimited Governance used often for the one given local authority of Governace of “the kingdom.” These terms and Power were enforceable at Law! [See Mt. 18:18] where the authority is extended to the Apostles [and therefore to there successors].

So who can FULLY and Properly translate the Bible? ONLY Chrsit Catholic Church

**2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 **“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

**2 Pet.3: 16 **“peaking of this as he [PAUL] in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. “

**1Tim.3: 15 **“if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth“. [All SINGULAR] The CC.

Friends, if in doubt look it up in YOUR verision of the ONE Bible.

God’s continued Blessings!

 

[Irish_Polock]

You have not adressed these questions at all. Here they are again.

1. What is the teaching outside of the teaching of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins do we need for our salvation that is only found in the CC’s oral tradition?

None Richard, it is all in Scripture, the problem is, is that you are choosing to ignore parts of Scripture that you don’t agree with, this results in a false Gospel. Scripture clearly teaches us that both the Church and Tradition in addition to Scripture are authorities.

1. Is this oral tradition inspired by God.

It is a source of Divine Revelation.

Could you be more specific? Which prayers and what liturgy do we need for our salvation?

The Mass.

Ok, you of coarse have a list of the “Fathers” and if I’m getting this right. You are saying that the writings of these yet to be named “Fathers” are 1) inspired by God and 2) all of their writings are in complete agreement with one another (unanimity) and 3) The unanimous inspired writing of these “Fathers” are needed for our salvation?

Oral Tradition has been preserved by the Church though the writings of the Fathers and is a source of Divine Revelation where they agree with the Church and Scripture.

Here is 1Tim2:13-14

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

I’m not sure how this illustrates your point.

You are correct, this was a typo, I meant 2 Thess. 13-14

To be clear, you mean in the light of the prayers and liturgy of the church and the writings of the “Fathers” in unanimity?

Indeed.

If you claim the Bible is the **ONLY **divine authority, then show me where the Bible says what you claim. Moreover, where does the Bible teach what books are supposed to belong in the Bible?

Where does the Bible teach that one can break away from the Church if one feels the Church is wrong?

Where does the Bible teach that the Church is only a spiritual entity of all believers and not also a physical entity?

 

[Irish_Polock]

That this why we have to go to an authoritative source which is Gods Word.

Where does the Bible teach that only the Bible is the truth of God or what we are supposed to believe from God?

 

[Irish_Polock]

Actually no. The burden is on the group saying that a certain tradition was added that we need to believe for our salvation that is not contained in concrete form such as Scripture, GOD’s written Word…

I am not sure what you’re alluding to when you say “a certain tradition was added that we need to believe for our salvation”, please enlighten me. Surely this addition wouldn’t go against what the Church, Tradition and Scripture have taught us?

 

[vulcano37214]

And do what with it? Interpret it? How do you think you got the myriads of protestant denominations that exist today? The source is authoritative but the interpretation is not. Protestants would like to wrap themselves in the mantle of Holy Scripture because they know full well that by their denial of any authority other than scripture they have no authority to interpret scripture so their interpretations leaves them naked.

you are right when you say that there are many different denominations that have many different interpretations and they will all say they are guided by the Holy Spirit. I would also say that these denominations believe that Jesus is the Savior. The difference is the way to Salvation. So let me ask you this question If i asked you what must i do to be saved, what would you tell me?

 

[Irish_Polock]

you are right when you say that there are many different denominations that have many different interpretations and they will all say they are guided by the Holy Spirit. I would also say that these denominations believe that Jesus is the Savior. The difference is the way to Salvation. So let me ask you this question If i asked you what must i do to be saved, what would you tell me?

Repent, and be Baptized, trust in Jesus alone for your salvation, and though Gods’ gift of grace that is in you, work out your salvation in “fear and trembling”.

 

[inkaneer]

you are right when you say that there are many different denominations that have many different interpretations and they will all say they are guided by the Holy Spirit. I would also say that these denominations believe that Jesus is the Savior. The difference is the way to Salvation. So let me ask you this question If i asked you what must i do to be saved, what would you tell me?

I would tell you that Jesus established A church for a reason. I would tell you that Jesus chose people to be the leaders of that church and Jesus would tell those leaders “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” [Luke 10:16] I would tell you that to be saved you must listen to the Church established by Jesus and I will tell you that if you reject that Church you reject Jesus. I will also tell you that Church is called by scripture the ecclesia kata holis and that Church is not any of the protestant denominations formed in the last 500 years because the protestant denominations are powerless in dealing with sin. But Jesus’ church has authority over sin in that it can forgive sins. For Jesus told those church leaders, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” [John 20:23].

And that is why I will tell you that extra ecclesia nolo salus, [outside the church there is no salvation].

 

[Richard_Kastner]

None Richard, it is all in Scripture, the problem is, is that you are choosing to ignore parts of Scripture that you don’t agree with, this results in a false Gospel. Scripture clearly teaches us that both the Church and Tradition in addition to Scripture are authorities.

Irish, don’t you see what you have said here. You are saying that oral tradition is contained in scripture, but the church and tradition are authorities in addition to scripture. I’m assuming you mean teaching authorities. And if oral tradition is contained in scripture it must be teaching the same thing that scripture is teaching which would validate the principle of sola scriptura.

It is a source of Divine Revelation.

If oral tradition is teaching the same things as scripture, I couldn’t agree more.

The Mass.

You are saying that I as a Protestant I need to embrace the mass for my salvation?

Oral Tradition has been preserved by the Church though the writings of the Fathers and is a source of Divine Revelation where they agree with the Church and Scripture.

Ok, but that would be true of anyone who is teaching/preaching the Gospel message.

You are correct, this was a typo, I meant 2 Thess. 13-14

What chapter?

Indeed.

If you claim the Bible is the **ONLY **divine authority, then show me where the Bible says what you claim. Moreover, where does the Bible teach what books are supposed to belong in the Bible?

But you said above “None Richard, it is all in Scripture” You were refering to oral tradition. So if you are teaching oral tradition, you are teaching the bible only and this whole question becomes moot.

Where does the Bible teach that one can break away from the Church if one feels the Church is wrong?

Are you saying you would stay in a church even if you thought it was wrong?

Where does the Bible teach that the Church is only a spiritual entity of all believers and not also a physical entity?

You mean like a building?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I would tell you that Jesus established A church for a reason. I would tell you that Jesus chose people to be the leaders of that church and Jesus would tell those leaders “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” [Luke 10:16] I would tell you that to be saved you must listen to the Church established by Jesus and I will tell you that if you reject that Church you reject Jesus. I will also tell you that Church is called by scripture the ecclesia kata holis and that Church is not any of the protestant denominations formed in the last 500 years because the protestant denominations are powerless in dealing with sin. But Jesus’ church has authority over sin in that it can forgive sins. For Jesus told those church leaders, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” [John 20:23].

And that is why I will tell you that extra ecclesia nolo salus, [outside the church there is no salvation].

Wow, you sure typed a lot without answering the question. Let me ask. What must I do to be saved?

 

[joe370]

Richard, you asked: What must I do to be saved?

In Mt 16:18, we read where Jesus spoke of His church…in which He promises, “I will build my church” and which not even the “gates of Hades” shall prevail against it, either by trying to:

Prevent its establishment (death did not prevent Jesus from building His church and death cannot destroy His church no matter how much death undermines His church)

Or

Altering doctrinal truth. killing Christians does not destroy Jesus’ church; altering truth in His church however, would definitely destroy his church even if His church, on the surface, seemed structurally in tact. If truth had been altered at any time then Paul, who said that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, is made out to look like a liar, making the bible the fallible word of God. Of course doctrinal truth remains in tact thanks to the ever presence of the Holy Spirit, guiding Jesus’ church into all truth. The question still remains: where in the world today, can Jesus’ church, (established almost 2000 years ago, on Pentecost) - be found?

Some people often disparage the church…I have heard people say in effect, “Christ, yes; the church, no; my own sister says that.” Some, profess they love Jesus, desiring to faithfully follow Him, but they have little use for “the church,” which is Jesus’ Mystical Body of which He is the head and savior. How can one (some, not all) - claim to love Jesus but dismiss his church as unnecessary?

The concept of the church which is in harmony with the Bible, as all catholics and non-catholics would agree:

Jesus is “head over all things to the church” - Ep 1:22. Jesus’ church “is His body” - Ep 1:23 The church is “the fullness of Him who fills all in all” - Ep 1:23 The church constitutes His fullness! If one is to be in Christ, by implication, he or she must be in the church founded by Christ, if in fact he or she is not totally oblivious as to what and where Jesus’ church can be found. A familial upbringing in a different religion would definitely be the exception. One cannot be judged for something one has never heard of or had access to. Jesus’ church is the house of the living God, so clearly we must belong to God’s House on earth. Jesus’ church is part of God’s “eternal purpose” which is why Jesus’ church is His Fathers house and we, as a united Christian family, belong to God’s house - Ep 3:10-11. The manifold wisdom of God is made known through the church; again, the question remains: which church? To God be “glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages” - Ep 3:21 In His church and by Jesus Christ, God will be glorified forever! “Christ is the head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body” - Ep 5:23 The bible tells us that Christ is the Savior, not of all men, but of His Body, which is His church! Not my words. According to the bible, to be saved, we must be in His body, the church! Christ “loved the church and gave Himself for it” - Ep 5:25 Jesus loves His church, even as a husband is to love his wife. Jesus Christ died for His church. Even as we care for our own body. so Jesus has the same concern for His body, the church, all because “we are members of His body.” What Jesus’ church is not: Jesus’ church is not a building.

Richard, you asked: What must I do to be saved?

To encapsulate, Jesus’ church is one and the church was purchased with the blood of Christ - Ac 20:28. His church is the house of the living God. Jesus’ church is His body of which He is the head and SAVIOR - Col 1:18,24. Jesus’ church is the united family of God, regardless of geographical location, and His church is the pillar and foundation of the truth - 1Ti 3:15 - and the manifold wisdom of God is made known through the church, and again, the 64000 dollar question remains: which church?

According to the bible you and I must belong to the church founded by Jesus Christ, (where truth is safeguarded until Jesus’ glorious return) - to be saved, and yet you and I belong to different churches. If doctrinal truth in Jesus’ church, was ever altered, then the bible looks like it has a serious flaw, for if truth had been altered, the gates of hell would have prevailed, and John 16:13 John 14:16 and 1 Tim 3:15 are merely fallible teachings.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
I would tell you that Jesus established A church for a reason. I would tell you that Jesus chose people to be the leaders of that church and Jesus would tell those leaders “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.” [Luke 10:16] I would tell you that to be saved you must listen to the Church established by Jesus and I will tell you that if you reject that Church you reject Jesus. I will also tell you that Church is called by scripture the ecclesia kata holis and that Church is not any of the protestant denominations formed in the last 500 years because the protestant denominations are powerless in dealing with sin. But Jesus’ church has authority over sin in that it can forgive sins. For Jesus told those church leaders, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained” [John 20:23].

And that is why I will tell you that extra ecclesia nolo salus, [outside the church there is no salvation].

Wow, you sure typed a lot without answering the question. Let me ask. What must I do to be saved?

Salvation is within the Church established by Jesus. That is the reason Jesus established the Church and *extra ecclesia nolo salus * is still valid today aas it was 2.000 years ago. Your solo fide is, like the rest of protestantism, a perversion of the salvific function of the Church. For if you believe in Jesus Christ then you believe in the Church He established based on the Apostles. If you don’t believe in His Church then you don’t believe in Jesus Christ. For Jesus said, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.” [John 3:36] So how can you claim you believe in Jesus and reject His Church?

 

[inkaneer]

Irish, don’t you see what you have said here. You are saying that oral tradition is contained in scripture, but the church and tradition are authorities in addition to scripture. I’m assuming you mean teaching authorities. And if oral tradition is contained in scripture it must be teaching the same thing that scripture is teaching which would validate the principle of sola scriptura.

The early church operated on Oral Tradition. The scriptures were chosen because they support that Oral Tradition. That is there is no contradiction between the two for both emanate from the same source, The Holy Spirit. But not all of the Oral Tradition is contained in the scriptures. In addition scripture has to be intrepreted in the light of the Oral Tradition. That is why sola scriptura is not valid and that is also the reason why protestantism has the thousands of different denominations with their own interpretations of scripture. Even basic doctrines such as Baptism are different among protestants. First of all they can’t agree that baptism is necessary. They can’t agree whether it saves one or not. They can’t agree on whether it is a sacrament or an ordinance. Infant or adult? All of these cannot be teaching truth. So where is the Holy Spirit when protestants need Him? He is in the Catholic Church.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard, you asked: What must I do to be saved?

In Mt 16:18, we read where Jesus spoke of His church…in which He promises, “I will build my church” and which not even the “gates of Hades” shall prevail against it, either by trying to:

Prevent its establishment (death did not prevent Jesus from building His church and death cannot destroy His church no matter how much death undermines His church)

Or

Altering doctrinal truth. killing Christians does not destroy Jesus’ church; altering truth in His church however, would definitely destroy his church even if His church, on the surface, seemed structurally in tact. If truth had been altered at any time then Paul, who said that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth, is made out to look like a liar, making the bible the fallible word of God. Of course doctrinal truth remains in tact thanks to the ever presence of the Holy Spirit, guiding Jesus’ church into all truth. The question still remains: where in the world today, can Jesus’ church, (established almost 2000 years ago, on Pentecost) - be found?

Some people often disparage the church…I have heard people say in effect, “Christ, yes; the church, no; my own sister says that.” Some, profess they love Jesus, desiring to faithfully follow Him, but they have little use for “the church,” which is Jesus’ Mystical Body of which He is the head and savior. How can one (some, not all) - claim to love Jesus but dismiss his church as unnecessary?

The concept of the church which is in harmony with the Bible, as all catholics and non-catholics would agree:

Jesus is “head over all things to the church” - Ep 1:22. Jesus’ church “is His body” - Ep 1:23 The church is “the fullness of Him who fills all in all” - Ep 1:23 The church constitutes His fullness! If one is to be in Christ, by implication, he or she must be in the church founded by Christ, if in fact he or she is not totally oblivious as to what and where Jesus’ church can be found. A familial upbringing in a different religion would definitely be the exception. One cannot be judged for something one has never heard of or had access to. Jesus’ church is the house of the living God, so clearly we must belong to God’s House on earth. Jesus’ church is part of God’s “eternal purpose” which is why Jesus’ church is His Fathers house and we, as a united Christian family, belong to God’s house - Ep 3:10-11. The manifold wisdom of God is made known through the church; again, the question remains: which church? To God be “glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages” - Ep 3:21 In His church and by Jesus Christ, God will be glorified forever! “Christ is the head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body” - Ep 5:23 The bible tells us that Christ is the Savior, not of all men, but of His Body, which is His church! Not my words. According to the bible, to be saved, we must be in His body, the church! Christ “loved the church and gave Himself for it” - Ep 5:25 Jesus loves His church, even as a husband is to love his wife. Jesus Christ died for His church. Even as we care for our own body. so Jesus has the same concern for His body, the church, all because “we are members of His body.” What Jesus’ church is not: Jesus’ church is not a building.

Richard, you asked: What must I do to be saved?

To encapsulate, Jesus’ church is one and the church was purchased with the blood of Christ - Ac 20:28. His church is the house of the living God. Jesus’ church is His body of which He is the head and SAVIOR - Col 1:18,24. Jesus’ church is the united family of God, regardless of geographical location, and His church is the pillar and foundation of the truth - 1Ti 3:15 - and the manifold wisdom of God is made known through the church, and again, the 64000 dollar question remains: which church?

According to the bible you and I must belong to the church founded by Jesus Christ, (where truth is safeguarded until Jesus’ glorious return) - to be saved, and yet you and I belong to different churches. If doctrinal truth in Jesus’ church, was ever altered, then the bible looks like it has a serious flaw, for if truth had been altered, the gates of hell would have prevailed, and John 16:13 John 14:16 and 1 Tim 3:15 are merely fallible teachings.

As I was reading your post I was keeping an eye open for the answer to my question, but I didn’t see it. I can only surmise by interpreting your rather lenghthy post that you are saying that we are saved by joining the CC. Is that right?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

QUOTE=inkaneer;7275703]

:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Wow, you sure typed a lot without answering the question. Let me ask. What must I do to be saved?

And that is why I will tell you that extra ecclesia nolo salus, [outside the church there is no salvation].

What is why you will tell me this?

Salvation is within the Church established by Jesus. That is the reason Jesus established the Church and *extra ecclesia nolo salus * is still valid today aas it was 2.000 years ago.

Your saying that Jesus established a church for our salvation? Why then did He die on the cross?

Your solo fide is, like the rest of protestantism, a perversion of the salvific function of the Church. For if you believe in Jesus Christ then you believe in the Church He established based on the Apostles. If you don’t believe in His Church then you don’t believe in Jesus Christ. For Jesus said, “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.” [John 3:36] So how can you claim you believe in Jesus and reject His Church?

I believe in Jesus and His church. I just don’t belive that His church is the CC.

The early church operated on Oral Tradition. The scriptures were chosen because they support that Oral Tradition. That is there is no contradiction between the two for both emanate from the same source, The Holy Spirit. But not all of the Oral Tradition is contained in the scriptures. In addition scripture has to be intrepreted in the light of the Oral Tradition. That is why sola scriptura is not valid

So again, are you saying that there is something contained in your oral tradition that is not contained in scripture and is necessary for our salvation?

and that is also the reason why protestantism has the thousands of different denominations with their own interpretations of scripture. Even basic doctrines such as Baptism are different among protestants. First of all they can’t agree that baptism is necessary. They can’t agree whether it saves one or not. They can’t agree on whether it is a sacrament or an ordinance. Infant or adult? All of these cannot be teaching truth. So where is the Holy Spirit when protestants need Him? He is in the Catholic Church.

Are you saying that we are saved by baptism. Didn’t you say above that we are saved by Jesus church “Salvation is within the Church established by Jesus. That is the reason Jesus established the Church”

 

[Richard_Kastner]

By the way joe, if you get time I would appreciate an answer/comment on this post.

joe370:

Heck, for the longest time there was no bound codified bible for Christians to read, and the bible is a product of tradition. The CC didn’t defer to scripture to codify scripture. It was the tradition of the CC stemming from the apostolic age and traversing each generation, that was the yardstick by which the canon of scripture was finally codified and the holy spirit gets all the credit for this preservation of truth.

If there are no traditions of the CC outside of Jesus Christ and Him crucified then all this doesn’t matter because the Apostles were teaching everything in their so called oral tradition that would eventually be codified into the bible. This whole question of sola scriptura becomes moot.

 

[inkaneer]

By the way joe, if you get time I would appreciate an answer/comment on this post.

If there are no traditions of the CC outside of Jesus Christ and Him crucified then all this doesn’t matter because the Apostles were teaching everything in their so called oral tradition that would eventually be codified into the bible. This whole question of sola scriptura becomes moot.

But who says that everything in the Oral Tradition was ‘codified’ in writing? Note the three early church writers I quote below. One, Origen, writes in 225 AD before the scriptures are codified. The other, Basil the Great, writes in 375 AD when the scriptures were in the processof being finalized and the third, Augustine, writing in 400 AD after the canon of the scriptures was settled. First Origen

“Although there are many who believe that they themselves hold to the teachings of Christ, there are yet some among them who think differently from their predecessors. The teaching of the Church has indeed been handed down through an order of succession from the apostles and remains in the churches even to the present time. That alone is to be believed as the truth which is in no way at variance with ecclesiastical and apostolic tradition” (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:2 [A.D. 225]).

Then Basil the Great:

“Of the dogmas and messages preserved in the Church, some we possess from written teaching and others we receive from the tradition of the apostles, handed on to us in mystery. In respect to piety, both are of the same force. No one will contradict any of these, no one, at any rate, who is even moderately versed in matters ecclesiastical. Indeed, were we to try to reject unwritten customs as having no great authority, we would unwittingly injure the gospel in its vitals; or rather, we would reduce [Christian] message to a mere term” (The Holy Spirit 27:66 [A.D. 375]).

And Augustine:

“But in regard to those observances which we carefully attend and which the whole world keeps, and which derive not from Scripture but from Tradition, we are given to understand that they are recommended and ordained to be kept, either by the apostles themselves or by plenary [ecumenical] councils, the authority of which is quite vital in the Church” (Letter to Januarius [A.D. 400]).

ANd to sum it all up I offer you one more of the giants of the early church, John Chrysostom. He wrote:

“[Paul commands,] ‘Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you have been taught, whether by word or by our letter’ [2 Thess. 2:15]. From this it is clear that they did not hand down everything by letter, but there is much also that was not written. Like that which was written, the unwritten too is worthy of belief. So let us regard the tradition of the Church also as worthy of belief. Is it a tradition? Seek no further” (Homilies on Second Thessalonians [A.D. 402]).

Now I ask you where do you see sola scriptura in this early christian church. You don’t. You see a church based on both the Oral as well as the WrittenTraditions. Sola scriptura did not exist until man invented it in the 16th century. It is a man made tradition of the very kind that Jesus warned about.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
And that is why I will tell you that extra ecclesia nolo salus, [outside the church there is no salvation].

What is why you will tell me this?

Your question does not make any sense.

Quote:
Salvation is within the Church established by Jesus. That is the reason Jesus established the Church and extra ecclesia nolo salus is still valid today aas it was 2.000 years ago.

Your saying that Jesus established a church for our salvation? Why then did He die on the cross?

Jesus sacrificial death made salvation possible for all but not all will be saved. Jesus established a church through which the salvation graces made possible by His death would be applied to man. The Church is empowered by Jesus’ death on the cross.

I believe in Jesus and His church. I just don’t belive that His church is the CC.

Okay then show me a church that has been here since Pentecost that has been the light of the world and don’t tell me this church was invisible as that contradicts scripture.
For Jesus said in Matthew 5:14:

“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hid.”

Show me one protestant denomination that meets the historical test. You show me a church other than the Catholic Church that meets this requirement of being the light of the world in every century since that first Pentecost when Pope Peter addressed the crowd and I will join it. But you can’t. You don’t want to believe the Catholic Church is the one church established by Christ because you don’t want to believe it and by doing so you are rejecting Christ and condemning yourself eternally. That is not a recommended practice.

So again, are you saying that there is something contained in your oral tradition that is not contained in scripture and is necessary for our salvation?

Jesus left the Apostles with the complete deposit of faith some of that was written down and some of it was not. But it is not enough to say we have the scriptures if you do not interpret them correctly. Tell us how you interpret Mt 16 17-19; John 20:21-23 and John 21:15-17.

Are you saying that we are saved by baptism. Didn’t you say above that we are saved by Jesus church “Salvation is within the Church established by Jesus. That is the reason Jesus established the Church”

I was repeating what Peter said in 1Pe 3:21. Baptism remits sin and instills in us the grace of God. But Baptism is only done once. After Baptism we sin and that sin needs to be dealt with either now or in eternity. If that sin is mortal it is dealt with in the Church by confession or it is dealt with eternally in hell. Unlike Jesus and His Church your denomination has no authority over sin. So yes, extra ecclesia nolo salus, outside the church there is no salvation.

 

[joe370]

As I was reading your post I was keeping an eye open for the answer to my question, but I didn’t see it. I can only surmise by interpreting your rather lenghthy post that you are saying that we are saved by joining the CC. Is that right?

I see you don’t really like lengthy posts so I will keep this one short. The answer to your question is: NO. You find the church that you believe with all your heart soul and mind, is the church founded by God circa AD 33, on Pentecost, in Jerusalem and you will have found the house of the living God, (where the fullness of Jesus who fills all in all, can be found) - the pillar and foundation of truth, (where the manifold wisdom of God is made known) - the Mystical Body of Christ of which Jesus is the head and savior,

 

[vulcano37214]

Allow me please to add a biblical support to this important message.

AFTER ALL THE CC IS THE ONE TRUE BIBLE CHURCH *

Matt.16 Verses 15 to 19:* "He [JESUS] said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock [YOU] I [JESUS] will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. [19]*** I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven***, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

**Eph. 2:19-20 ** “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, singular] built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophetsB], Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [singular] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit”.

**Eph. 4: 4 -8 **“There is one body [Only One Church] and one Spirit, [Only One set of beliefs[/COLOR]] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, Only One God] ***one faith, ***Only One set of doctrine and dogmas] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. "

“Binding and Loosing” were common rabitical Terms for FREE and Unlimited Governance used often for the one given local authority of Governace of “the kingdom.” These terms and Power were enforceable at Law! [See Mt. 18:18] where the authority is extended to the Apostles [and therefore to there successors].

So who can FULLY and Properly translate the Bible? ONLY Chrsit Catholic Church

**2nd. Peter Chapter One verse 20 **“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. “

**2 Pet.3: 16 **“peaking of this as he [PAUL] in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. “

**1Tim.3: 15 **“if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth“. [All SINGULAR] The CC.

Friends, if in doubt look it up in YOUR verision of the ONE Bible.

God’s continued Blessings!

You know what amazes me is that the catholics on this forum will use Scripture to try to support their claim that Christ Church is the catholic church, (the above scriptures give no mention of the catholic church or the succession of popes) but when someone on this forum gives scriptural proof to support a biblical doctrine you guys tell them that they are guilty of using sola scripture. The word Church means the called out ones not the catholic church.

 

[joe370]

You know what amazes me is that the catholics on this forum will use Scripture to try to support their claim that Christ Church is the catholic church, (the above scriptures give no mention of the catholic church or the succession of popes) but when someone on this forum gives scriptural proof to support a biblical doctrine you guys tell them that they are guilty of using sola scripture. The word Church means the called out ones not the catholic church.

According to that logic, no church in the world today, is Christ’s church founded circa AD 33. If you are correct then just pick one that conforms to your set of beliefs and go.

As far as sola scriptura goes, no one SS advocate will give me the universal definition of SS. Thus far I have heard three different interpretations of SS. To believe in SS I first have to know definitively what the practice of SS is, and I don’t, but I keep asking.