Infallability

[gurneyhalleck1]

The Orthodox Church is part of that Church founded by Christ; is the Holy Spirit infallibly guiding them to all truth? Why is the Holy Spirit only guiding the Western part of Christendom into “all truth?” The Coptics? They were a part of that Church as well…

With full ecumenical councils recognizing ALL the bishops equally in a holy meeting guided by the Holy Spirit the Church was indeed infallibly protected by God and delivered wholesome, perfect, holy doctrines…

Gurney, if the holy spirit is forever

 

[Irish_Polock]

Stop wondering, joe, because I’m with you! The idea that the papal legates marching into Hagia Sophia right during a beautiful, solemn Mass and slamming down excommunication papers at the foot of the altar was somehow the Orthodox pridefully “leaving” the Church is a humorous touch of irony and really bad history! It’s like the wife who files for divorce remembering the split as the husband being the one who filed.

Certainly, I would have to disagree with you. In fact I think we would both have to agree to disagree to prevent a hijacking of this thread. Your analogy is somewhat wrong, it would more like a wife filing for a divorce after her dear husband had left her for some other woman, and after years of attempting to reconcile with him eagerly, and him being steadfast in his infidelity, remembering that it was he whom held the responsibility for said divorce.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Biblical basis for the doctrine of infallibility: Jesus Christ, who founded the Catholic Church in Matthew 16:18,

It would be argued by many that it was not the CC that was founded in Matt.16.

also promised the gift of the Holy Spirit to guide His church into all truth, forever

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Then there was the Council of Jerusalem, in Acts 15. This Church council was held to determine whether or not Gentiles had to first be circumcised before becoming Christians. In Peter’s closing he says the following, from Acts 15:28:

The only thing that Peter says is in vs. 7-11 and it is really interesting what he does say.
7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Peter is here saying that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on the Gentiles as well as Jewish believers. He certainly is not saying that the Spirit will be given “exclusively” to the Apostles

“For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things”.

The Holy Spirit was invoked, so therefore, it must be an infallible decision.

Invocation? hardly, BTW it is James Jesus brother and the head of the church at Jerusalem that makes this statement, not Peter. This is more like a passing coment than an invocation.

The CC founded by Jesus, (comprised of all fallible leaders) - has the protection of the Infallible Holy Spirit, promised by Jesus Christ Himself to protect His Church from moral error - agreed?

I don’t think this statement is true. Consider the parable of the wheat and tares. Matt13:24-30

To ignore these scripture verses is to ignore one of the central tenets of the Bible. Even Protestants believe in the infallibility of scripture, because it’s inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is no different.

What is no diferent?

The only other option is: the holy spirit stopped protecting the CC from within and without, and stopped guiding her into all truth, once the CC codified the infallible bible in 393 AD, leaving us with no sure way to know, with certainty, the truth regarding certain teachings. Doesn’t seem too plausible does it???

No, this is not the only other option. Read Matt.13:24-30

 

[Irish_Polock]

This is priceless: heck, even the Anglicans!

Yes indeed, it is odd. Is it not?

 

[Nicea325]

Quote:
Originally Posted by joe370
Biblical basis for the doctrine of infallibility: Jesus Christ, who founded the Catholic Church in Matthew 16:18,

Quote: Richard Kastner:

It would be argued by many that it was not the CC that was founded in Matt.16.

And it is a well known fact it certainly isn’t the church you belong to or any church founded by a man,woman or group of people. I can bet all of my life savings on that FACT of life and history!

 

[joe370]

Hey Gurney…

The Orthodox Church is part of that Church founded by Christ;

Agreed…

is the Holy Spirit infallibly guiding them to all truth?

Not if the HS is guiding the CC into all truth, for the simple fact that they have some truths that conflict with the CC. The HS cannot be responsible for conflicting truths. For example, the filique…Other than that, discipline, notwithstanding, and the primacy of the pope, I can’t think of any other difference. They clearly believe in some sort of purgation for the simple fact that they pray for the dead…

Why is the Holy Spirit only guiding the Western part of Christendom into “all truth?” The Coptics? They were a part of that Church as well…

The holy spirit is guiding the church of Matthew 16 into all truth, which is the church built on Kepha. The EOC does not believe that Jesus’ church was built on Kepha…If I am wrong please correct me.

With full ecumenical councils recognizing ALL the bishops equally in a holy meeting guided by the Holy Spirit the Church was indeed infallibly protected by God and delivered wholesome, perfect, holy doctrines…

I understand…You believe that the holy spirit is no longer guiding the church founded by Christ, into all truth. I respectfully disagree.

 

[joe370]

[TE=**Richard
[/QUOTE]
Kastner;7236017]It would be argued by many that it was not the CC that was founded in Matt.16.

Okay, let us assume that you are right; the CC is not the church of Matthew 16. Help me find the church, founded by Jesus…the church of Matthew 16?

I’m not quite sure why you found it necessary to make this statement. Do you think it is possible for the Spirit of God to lead us into untruth? While it is clear that Jesus is directing His remarks to the Apostles, it is also clear that He is talking to us, as I have pointed out. So, if the Spirit leads the Apostles into all truth, infallability, He also leads us into all truth, infallability.

So the HS is talking to both you and me? Okay…is the holy spirit infallibly guiding you and me into all truth? Keeping in mind that you and I don’t agree when it comes to certain infallible teachings?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Okay, let us assume that you are right; the CC is not the church of Matthew 16. Help me find the church, founded by Jesus…the church of Matthew 16?

Here it is. Rev12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

So the HS is talking to both you and me? Okay…is the holy spirit infallibly guiding you and me into all truth? Keeping in mind that you and I don’t agree when it comes to certain infallible teachings?

Again I ask, would the Holy Spirit lead into untruth?

 

[joe370]

[Richard Kastner;7236631]Here it is. Rev12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Okay, but you absolutely did not answer my question. You said: “It would be argued by many that it was not the CC that was founded in Matt.16.”

Okay, let us assume that you are right; the CC is not the church of Matthew 16. Help me find the church, founded by Jesus…the church of Matthew 16?

Again I ask, would the Holy Spirit lead into untruth?

No!!! Clearly the holy spirit is not guiding you and I into all truth for the simple fact that we don’t agree vis-a-vis all truth.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Okay, but you absolutely did not answer my question. You said: “It would be argued by many that it was not the CC that was founded in Matt.16.”

Okay, let us assume that you are right; the CC is not the church of Matthew 16. Help me find the church, founded by Jesus…the church of Matthew 16?
Rev12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I absolutely did answer your question. The church founded by Jesus is #1 A remnant. In other words it would always be a smaller church, and #2they would keep the commandments. This would be the Ten commandments and #3 they have the Spirit of Prophecy which would be the testimony of Jesus Christ Rev.19:10.

No!!! Clearly the holy spirit is not guiding you and I into all truth for the simple fact that we don’t agree vis-a-vis all truth.

Exactly, so the Holy Spirit would not be leading at least one of us and possibly both. The only way to know is if we align ourselves with the word of God.

1Cor.2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[joe370]

Richard Kastner, you said:

It would be argued by many that it was not the CC that was founded in Matt.16.

I then asked you which church in the world today was the church of Matthew 16 founded by Jesus, to which you said:

Rev12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Today we see hundreds of non-Catholic churches along with the CC, that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so I don’t see how that answers my question.

This does not answer my question:

I absolutely did answer your question. The church founded by Jesus is #1 A remnant. In other words it would always be a smaller church, and #2they would keep the commandments. This would be the Ten commandments and #3 they have the Spirit of Prophecy which would be the testimony of Jesus Christ Rev.19:10.

Richard, please identify the name of the church in the world today that is the church of Matthew 16 founded by God, where the remnant, (which, according to you, would always be a smaller church, comprised of people who keep the commandments and have the Spirit of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus Christ Rev.19:10) - can be found??? You said that that remnant was arguably not the Catholic church, so we can arguably rule that remnant out - correct???

I said: No!!! Clearly the holy spirit is not guiding you and I into all truth for the simple fact that we don’t agree vis-a-vis all truth.

Exactly, so the Holy Spirit would not be leading at least one of us and possibly both. The only way to know is if we align ourselves with the word of God.

Richard, you and I both defer to the word of God and come away from the word of God with polar opposite beliefs, regarding certain things. If the Holy Spirit is not leading at least one of us and possibly both, as you said, then clearly the spirit of truth is not guiding each and every person into all truth - correct?

 

[mark_a]

So I’ve done a lot of thinking…perhaps too much as it has led me to question the Catholic Church.

But not in a negative way. I have faith in the Church, that she has a response to my questions and issues; I just don’t know what it is.

My problem is infallablity. My issue is that I don’t see where in Acts of the Apostles we see anybody speak of infallability. So how do we know that the Church was always understood to have it?

Now, don’t get me wrong. Nowhere in Acts is infallability contradicted. Theoretically it is a possibility, since nobdy erred on what the CC has defined as an infallible statement. But doesn’t it strike ou as…IDK…careless, perhaps, not to simply tell us that the Church had infallible authority? I mean, clearly the whole Church didn’t know that it was infallible, since a lot of Bishops (the direct successors of the Apostles) disagree with this and now belong to the Orthodox Church.

It’s hard to vocalize my thoughts here…actually come to think of it, I happen to agree kind of with JonNC, sort of.

No, JonNC is not responsible for me questioning the Church, so don’t hurt him . I’m just saying that when I see his views on matters regarding the early Church they sort of look like how I view the early Church-that councils were normally called to settle disputes and that nobody ever really claimed to be infallible and when disputes arose, a Council was called to resolve it, with Peter heading the council.

IDK. I sound very…Orthodox, don’t I?

I’m interested to see what both Catholics and non-Catholics have to say on the issue.

Which post 1057 infallible teachings do you disagree with?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner, you said:

I then asked you which church in the world today was the church of Matthew 16 founded by Jesus, to which you said:

Today we see hundreds of non-Catholic churches along with the CC, that have the testimony of Jesus Christ, so I don’t see how that answers my question.

This does not answer my question:

Richard, please identify the name of the church in the world today that is the church of Matthew 16 founded by God, where the remnant, (which, according to you, would always be a smaller church, comprised of people who keep the commandments and have the Spirit of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus Christ Rev.19:10) - can be found??? You said that that remnant was arguably not the Catholic church, so we can arguably rule that remnant out - correct???

I think the answer is quite clear. The church that Jesus started resides in the hearts of any and all that Keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus.

Richard, you and I both defer to the word of God and come away from the word of God with polar opposite beliefs, regarding certain things. If the Holy Spirit is not leading at least one of us and possibly both, as you said, then clearly the spirit of truth is not guiding each and every person into all truth - correct?

In order to be lead one must follow.

 

[joe370]

=Richard

Kastner;7237588]I think the answer is quite clear. The church that Jesus started resides in the hearts of any and all that Keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus.

I think I get it; the invisible church??? Does that include the very visible Catholic Church, which, according to you, is not the church of Matthew 16 founded by Jesus???

In order to be lead one must follow.

And in your opinion it does not matter if one follows the teachings of the Catholic church or the Lutheran church, or the Baptist church or the Pentecostal church or the 7th day Adventist church or one of the many Evangelical churches etc. etc… ad nauseam?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I think I get it; the invisible church??? Does that include the very visible Catholic Church, which, according to you, is not the church of Matthew 16 founded by Jesus???

Does the CC keep and teach to keep, the commandments of God and have the spirit of prophecy?

And in your opinion it does not matter if one follows the teachings of the Catholic church or the Lutheran church, or the Baptist church or the Pentecostal church or the 7th day Adventist church or one of the many Evangelical churches etc. etc… ad nauseam?

I don’t know where you got that idea. I certainly did not say that.

1Cor.2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[joe370]

Does the CC keep and teach to keep, the commandments of God and have the spirit of prophecy?

Yes… However, you did say: It would be argued by many that it was not the CC that was founded in Matt.16.

Do you agree with the “many…?”

 

[Janet1983]

Do you agree with the “many…?”

I guess I do in this case. Though I am not quite sure whether this is actually a majority opinion here or anywhere else.
Thinking that the Orthodox might see it like the Catholics this would mean roughly 1.5 billion. If I’d assume that everyone else disagrees I’d come up with about 600 million (and I even put the African indigenous sects in this number).

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Does the CC keep and teach to keep, the commandments of God and have the spirit of prophecy?

Yes…

They don’t keep the Sabbath.

However, you did say: It would be argued by many that it was not the CC that was founded in Matt.16.
Do you agree with the “many…?”

Yes.

 

[BTTG]

Rev12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

I absolutely did answer your question. The church founded by Jesus is #1 A remnant. In other words it would always be a smaller church, and #2they would keep the commandments. This would be the Ten commandments and #3 they have the Spirit of Prophecy which would be the testimony of Jesus Christ Rev.19:10.

Exactly, so the Holy Spirit would not be leading at least one of us and possibly both. The only way to know is if we align ourselves with the word of God.

1Cor.2
9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Are the protestants keeping the 10 commandments? What about the 4th commandment?

written with love