Infallability

[Richard_Kastner]

Of course we are saved by Jesus; we are saved by His sacrifice. Also, belonging to Jesus’ church is necessary according to the bible.

So, you are saying that we are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus and by membership in His church, right?

 

[inkaneer]

So, you are saying that we are saved by the sacrifice of Jesus and by membership in His church, right?

I think you are being obstinate and ridiculously so. I suspect that you are one who wants no affiliation in any church or denomination, the mythological "lone wolf christian’ if you will. But the fact remains that Jesus said He would establish a church that would prevail against the forces of hell and that church would have a heirarchial structure based on the Apostles and their successors and Jesus would remain with that church, which would be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit, until the end of the Age. Obviously scripture has a lot to say about this church but what does it say about “lone wolf christians”? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

This idea that “Jesus did it all so I don’t have to do anything” that you seem to espouse is nowhere to be found in scripture.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I’m going to take just this part of this post. Because I think this is where we are getting hung up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
I certainly am not putting words in your mouth note this exchange. I said

You have Richard , lets review:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner

1. What is the teaching outside of the teaching of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins do we need for our salvation that is only found in the CC’s oral tradition?

Which is in itself is a oddly articulated question and implies to me that we have much different definitions of Sacred Tradition. However, I did assumed you had meant What teachings. My response was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish_Polock
None Richard, it is all in Scripture, the problem is, is that you are choosing to ignore parts of Scripture that you don’t agree with, this results in a false Gospel. Scripture clearly teaches us that both the Church and Tradition in addition to Scripture are authorities.

After which you wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Irish, don’t you see what you have said here. You are saying that oral tradition is contained in scripture, but the church and tradition are authorities in addition to scripture. I’m assuming you mean teaching authorities. And if oral tradition is contained in scripture it must be teaching the same thing that scripture is teaching which would validate the principle of sola scriptura.

Nowhere have I responded with all Sacred Tradition is contained in Scripture, nor does Scripture teach such a thing. You are surely projecting your own ideas into what I have said.

Irish look at my first question that you have posted here. Let me repeat it so we don’t make any mistakes.

:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner

1. What is the teaching outside of the teaching of Jesus Christ and Him crucified for our sins do we need for our salvation that is only found in the CC’s oral tradition?

And you answer was

:
Originally Posted by Irish_Polock
None Richard, it is all in Scripture, the problem is, is that you are choosing to ignore parts of Scripture that you don’t agree with, this results in a false Gospel. Scripture clearly teaches us that both the Church and Tradition in addition to Scripture are authorities.

Are you not saying here that All your oral tradition is contained in scripture ? You got to help me out here you say something and then you say you didn’t say it.

 

[vulcano37214]

Isn’t the idea that someone who does not believe in Jesus Christ actually going to confession somewhere between ridiculous and ludicrous? Think about it. People go to confession because they believe in Jesus Christ and His delegation of authority to forgive sins to the Church as stated so clearly in John’s gospel:

“If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” [John 20:23 RSV]

People don’t go to confession because they do not believe in Jesus. That goes for protestants too. Because of sola scriptura you threw out more than just the baby with the bathwater. You threw out the tub too.

Do you think that everybody that steps foot in a church is a Christian. Jesus said it himself in Mathew 7 about the broad and narrow way. Just because you step foot in a confessional does not mean that you are a christian because you are confessing sin. There are a lot of people catholics and protestants that will be asking Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and he will say i never knew you. You know the most important thing in this world is not if you kinow Christ, but does Christ Know you.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I think you are being obstinate and ridiculously so. I suspect that you are one who wants no affiliation in any church or denomination, the mythological "lone wolf christian’ if you will. But the fact remains that Jesus said He would establish a church that would prevail against the forces of hell and that church would have a heirarchial structure based on the Apostles and their successors and Jesus would remain with that church, which would be guided into all truth by the Holy Spirit, until the end of the Age. Obviously scripture has a lot to say about this church but what does it say about “lone wolf christians”? Nothing, absolutely nothing.

Merely striving for clarity.

This idea that “Jesus did it all so I don’t have to do anything” that you seem to espouse is nowhere to be found in scripture.

Jn.3
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

[vulcano37214]

I note that you say, "Here is a good definition of sola Scriptura from a current reformer. [Emhasis mine] So my question to you is why has this doctrine changed since first formulated about 500 years ago. Then sola scriptura meant that
ONLY [that’s the sola part] scripture was authoritative. It was a denial of Church authority especially in the Catholic Church from which the protestants rebelled. Now sola scriptura has morphed into something other. And let’s be honest here. We have never claimed that Scripture was a science book or anything of the sort. So that is a red herring. What we have claimed is that, 1, sola scriptura is unbiblical, 2, sola scriptura is a man made tradition of the sixteenth century. 3. the early church operated on Oral Tradition before and after the canon of scripture was decided. 4. scripture clearly states that Jesus imparted authority to the heirarchy [the apostles] of the Church. 5. protestants removed seven books from the OT which were accepted as inspired for over 1100 years. 6. there is nothing in scripture that contradicts the Oral Tradition. 7. Scripture is authoritative but protestant interpretation of it is not. 8. The scriptures were codified into a book that was to be liturgical. It was not to be a self study guide to Christology. 9. the definition of sola scriptura has changed over the years and there is currently several definitions ranging from scripture being the sole infallible rule of faith and practice to being the final authority with other authorities subject to it. 10. Contrary to your definition, the scriptures do not teach that only scripture is sufficient for our salvation and spiritual life.

So what is in your oral tradition that is needed for salvation that is not in Scripture. And also why did the protest happen. Why did Luther protest the catholic church.?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Taking my comments out of context is getting typical for you Richard. As far as preaching the Gospel without the light of Sacred Tradition and the teaching authority of the Magisterium, -this could only lead to heresy and schism - and history has proven this.

Ok, Irish where is this sacred oral tradition of which you speak? And who is the magisterium?

 

[inkaneer]

Do you think that everybody that steps foot in a church is a Christian. Jesus said it himself in Mathew 7 about the broad and narrow way. Just because you step foot in a confessional does not mean that you are a christian because you are confessing sin. There are a lot of people catholics and protestants that will be asking Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and he will say i never knew you. You know the most important thing in this world is not if you kinow Christ, but does Christ Know you.

Okay, here we go. Person A is not a christian. Person A does not believe in Jesus nor the Bible nor in any christian ideas such as sin, eternal damnation or heaven and hell. But you still expect person A to suddenly appear inside a Catholic Church confessional to confess sins that he does not believe in? Where have you been all my life. You see I got this bridge in Pittsburgh that I will sell to you real cheap. Practically a steal. You can set up toll booths and make a fortune. Don’t want a bridge well then how about some prime real estate?

People go to confession because it is something they believe in. Just as you will not buy a bridge or “prime real estate” from me because you don’t believe me so too someone is not going to confession because they do not believe in it or Jesus Christ. And th epeople who go to confession are known by Christ. The ones who are not known by Christ are those who do not confess their sins and remain mired in them.

 

[inkaneer]

Ok, Irish where is this sacred oral tradition of which you speak? And who is the magisterium?

Well for openers try the Cathechism of the Catholic Church and the magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church which is based on the apostolic successors, the bishops.

 

[inkaneer]

So what is in your oral tradition that is needed for salvation that is not in Scripture. And also why did the protest happen. Why did Luther protest the catholic church.?

Luther protested due to many contributing factors not the least of which was the parental abuse he suffered as a child. It is hard to embrace any authority when the only authority you knew in your formative years was both physical as well as psychological abuse. Read Luther’s writings to see what he had to say about it. Read what Luther wrote about how he could never forgive his father and how his mother beat him till he was bloody over what Luther called “an insifgnificant nut.” Luther reacted by running away and joining the Augustinian order. But he could not escape authority because there he was subjected to the authority of the order as well as the church. This was to be the underlying reason why Luther ran away again rejecting church authority [in reality any authority] and coined the idea of sola scriptura. Here he could interpret scripture the way he wanted and his authority ruled the day, not someone else’s. This worked well as long as Luther was the one doing the interpretation. But others came along and disagreed with Luther. Luther would fly into a rage that someone would dare contradict him. Luther lived to see the results of what sola scriptura statrted as more and more protesters came on the scene. I wonder what he would think now if he could see the state of protestantism today.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Well for openers try the Cathechism of the Catholic Church

For openers? What does that mean? Is there more? and what do you mean by try? are you not sure?

and the magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church which is based on the apostolic successors, the bishops.

And why do I need this teaching authority for my salvation?

 

[Nicea325]

For openers? What does that mean? Is there more? and what do you mean by try? are you not sure?

And why do I need this teaching authority for my salvation?

Preciesly why you are called PROTESTant. Founded on spiritual pride and the end results show: thousands upon thousands of endless denominations with no end in sight.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Well for openers try the Cathechism of the Catholic Church

For openers? What does that mean? Is there more? and what do you mean by try? are you not sure?

I’m quite sure. And I said try because the Catechism is not just some religious tract consisting of a couple of paragraphs that protestants like to hand out. It is very comprehensive and I doubt very much if you will read all of it. That’s why I said to “try” it. After than we’ll go to the Fathers of the Church where you will see their testimony as to exactly what the early church believed and why they believed it. You will also see that what they believed, long before there was such a thing as protestantism, matches the Catechism. Then after that there are all the encyclicals and counciliar writings. But somehow I don’t think you will persevere to see it through.

Quote:
and the magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church which is based on the apostolic successors, the bishops.

And why do I need this teaching authority for my salvation?

Because contrary to what you think, neither scripture nor your interpretation of it, is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church is.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Well for openers try the Cathechism of the Catholic Church

I’m quite sure. And I said try because the Catechism is not just some religious tract consisting of a couple of paragraphs that protestants like to hand out. It is very comprehensive and I doubt very much if you will read all of it. That’s why I said to “try” it. After than we’ll go to the Fathers of the Church where you will see their testimony as to exactly what the early church believed and why they believed it. You will also see that what they believed, long before there was such a thing as protestantism, matches the Catechism. Then after that there are all the encyclicals and counciliar writings. But somehow I don’t think you will persevere to see it through.

Quote:
and the magisterium is the teaching authority of the Church which is based on the apostolic successors, the bishops.

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
And why do I need this teaching authority for my salvation?

Because contrary to what you think, neither scripture nor your interpretation of it, is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church is.

Ok, what is there that this magisterium or the catechism teaches that is not contained in scripture, that we need for our salvation?

 

[vulcano37214]

Okay, here we go. Person A is not a christian. Person A does not believe in Jesus nor the Bible nor in any christian ideas such as sin, eternal damnation or heaven and hell. But you still expect person A to suddenly appear inside a Catholic Church confessional to confess sins that he does not believe in? Where have you been all my life. You see I got this bridge in Pittsburgh that I will sell to you real cheap. Practically a steal. You can set up toll booths and make a fortune. Don’t want a bridge well then how about some prime real estate?

People go to confession because it is something they believe in. Just as you will not buy a bridge or “prime real estate” from me because you don’t believe me so too someone is not going to confession because they do not believe in it or Jesus Christ. And th epeople who go to confession are known by Christ. The ones who are not known by Christ are those who do not confess their sins and remain mired in them.

you are right person A is probable not going to set foot in a christian Church. You are missing my point. Read Mathew 7, What you are saying is that everyone that is person B that goes to confession knows why they are going and are therefore Christians. Have you not seen people that go to Church on sunday and then hate there brother on monday. Every denomination has these people. they are the tares among the wheat. No i do not expect an athiest to go to confession. but a luke warm person can.

But i still want to talk more about that bridge, i may be interested.

 

[vulcano37214]

Luther protested due to many contributing factors not the least of which was the parental abuse he suffered as a child. It is hard to embrace any authority when the only authority you knew in your formative years was both physical as well as psychological abuse. Read Luther’s writings to see what he had to say about it. Read what Luther wrote about how he could never forgive his father and how his mother beat him till he was bloody over what Luther called “an insifgnificant nut.” Luther reacted by running away and joining the Augustinian order. But he could not escape authority because there he was subjected to the authority of the order as well as the church. This was to be the underlying reason why Luther ran away again rejecting church authority [in reality any authority] and coined the idea of sola scriptura. Here he could interpret scripture the way he wanted and his authority ruled the day, not someone else’s. This worked well as long as Luther was the one doing the interpretation. But others came along and disagreed with Luther. Luther would fly into a rage that someone would dare contradict him. Luther lived to see the results of what sola scriptura statrted as more and more protesters came on the scene. I wonder what he would think now if he could see the state of protestantism today.

so the abuse of selling indulgences for the removal of sins had nothing to do with it?

 

[inkaneer]

Ok, what is there that this magisterium or the catechism teaches that is not contained in scripture, that we need for our salvation?

You question presupposes one has a proper interpretation of scripture. The magisterium teaches the proper interpretation for neither scripture nor your interpretation of it is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church is.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Luther protested due to many contributing factors not the least of which was the parental abuse he suffered as a child. It is hard to embrace any authority when the only authority you knew in your formative years was both physical as well as psychological abuse. Read Luther’s writings to see what he had to say about it. Read what Luther wrote about how he could never forgive his father and how his mother beat him till he was bloody over what Luther called “an insifgnificant nut.” Luther reacted by running away and joining the Augustinian order. But he could not escape authority because there he was subjected to the authority of the order as well as the church. This was to be the underlying reason why Luther ran away again rejecting church authority [in reality any authority] and coined the idea of sola scriptura. Here he could interpret scripture the way he wanted and his authority ruled the day, not someone else’s. This worked well as long as Luther was the one doing the interpretation. But others came along and disagreed with Luther. Luther would fly into a rage that someone would dare contradict him. Luther lived to see the results of what sola scriptura statrted as more and more protesters came on the scene. I wonder what he would think now if he could see the state of protestantism today.

so the abuse of selling indulgences for the removal of sins had nothing to do with it?

There are always abuses in the church and such abuses are settled within the church. Luther’s problem was not so much with the problem of selling indulgences but with the concept of indulgences themselves. Luther’s childhood abuse was due in part to the fact that his mother was a perfectionist [hence the bit about the nut being "insignificant]. Luther, try as he might, could never please his mother. So it is not a big leap to reason that if one cannot please his own mother how then could one possibly think they could please God. Luther made that leap. So that changed everything. Man could not please God so God’s grace did not transform man as the Church taught. Instead, it only covered man’s sins so God could not or would not see how wretched man really was. Luther was on a slippery slope that was getting steeper as he went. So indulgences were out as were prayers for the dead, That meant several books in the OT had to go to for Luther knew that the biblical basis for purgatory and prayers for the dead were based on the Book of Maccabbees. In short Luther rebelled from the church and like he did with his parents he ran away. Luther reformed nothing. The real reformation came in the council of Trent. That is where the abuses were resolved and where also Luther’s teaching was condemned as heresy. It still is.

 

[inkaneer]

you are right person A is probable not going to set foot in a christian Church. You are missing my point. Read Mathew 7, What you are saying is that everyone that is person B that goes to confession knows why they are going and are therefore Christians. Have you not seen people that go to Church on sunday and then hate there brother on monday. Every denomination has these people. they are the tares among the wheat. No i do not expect an athiest to go to confession. but a luke warm person can.

But i still want to talk more about that bridge, i may be interested.

Hey, I don’t doubt that people go to church on Sunday and come Monday it is back to the usual. I see it in people who go to church on Saturday too. Now one may question just how much of a christian someone like that is but the mere fact that someone does go to confession is evidence that they are cognizant of sin in their lives and the need to remit it. They obviously are thinking of their salvation because there really is no other reason to confess sins.

Now about that bridge, I don’t accept personal checks nor IOU’s.

 

[Irish_Polock]

Are you not saying here that All your oral tradition is contained in scripture ? You got to help me out here you say something and then you say you didn’t say it.

Richard, please read my last post. I have addressed this in said post.