Infallibility beyond the Pope

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Can someone please explain what the Church authoritatively teaches regarding infallibility? When is the church infallible beyond the Pope ex cathedra? Ex cathedra is what was discussed in church, but I am confused about infalliblity in regards to anything else. I have heard conservatives claim that teaching statements by the Pope other Bishops are infallible, or that teachings that the church has held to for a long time are infallible?

For example, is Greek philosophy of the three fonts of morality of an act an infallible formula or just a suggestion?

If 90% of the Bishops agree with a teaching, but 10% do not, is that an infallible teaching?

If the church has taught something for 1000 years, does that make it infallible?

On the liberal side, many liberals say that the church can change on things such as women in the priesthood or sexual morals etc.? According to the official documents, are these infallible teachings or not?
 
Whatever is contained within the “normal magisterium” of the Church may be considered to be infallible.If not, then “Jesus is Lord” may be subject to doubt and discussion.
 
Can someone please explain what the Church authoritatively teaches regarding infallibility? When is the church infallible beyond the Pope ex cathedra? Ex cathedra is what was discussed in church, but I am confused about infalliblity in regards to anything else. I have heard conservatives claim that teaching statements by the Pope other Bishops are infallible, or that teachings that the church has held to for a long time are infallible?

For example, is Greek philosophy of the three fonts of morality of an act an infallible formula or just a suggestion?

If 90% of the Bishops agree with a teaching, but 10% do not, is that an infallible teaching?

If the church has taught something for 1000 years, does that make it infallible?

On the liberal side, many liberals say that the church can change on things such as women in the priesthood or sexual morals etc.? According to the official documents, are these infallible teachings or not?
Hieroglyph:

Read through this; then ask more questions if you want to. 🙂

infallibility

God bless,
jd
 
Can someone please explain what the Church authoritatively teaches regarding infallibility? When is the church infallible beyond the Pope ex cathedra? Ex cathedra is what was discussed in church, but I am confused about infalliblity in regards to anything else. I have heard conservatives claim that teaching statements by the Pope other Bishops are infallible, or that teachings that the church has held to for a long time are infallible?

For example, is Greek philosophy of the three fonts of morality of an act an infallible formula or just a suggestion?

If 90% of the Bishops agree with a teaching, but 10% do not, is that an infallible teaching?

If the church has taught something for 1000 years, does that make it infallible?

On the liberal side, many liberals say that the church can change on things such as women in the priesthood or sexual morals etc.? According to the official documents, are these infallible teachings or not?
Don’t listen to the liberals or their arguments, they are whacked out, whackey.
Everything in your Catechism is Infallibly taught. If you run into a doubtful situation you are bound to resolve your conscience according to the mind of the Church. In doubtful cases seek the advise of your pastor or even the Bishop. But don’t try to dream up situations, in 70 plus years I have never bumped into one. 👍
 
Don’t listen to the liberals or their arguments, they are whacked out, whackey.
Everything in your Catechism is Infallibly taught. If you run into a doubtful situation you are bound to resolve your conscience according to the mind of the Church. In doubtful cases seek the advise of your pastor or even the Bishop. But don’t try to dream up situations, in 70 plus years I have never bumped into one. 👍
There is no need to dream up anything. History and modern liberalism pose plenty of problems themselves. And the catechism is a fairly modern invention, though I greatly enjoyed the St Joseph catechism I read.

Medieval and historical catholic positions that seem morally wrong or defective. Supporting slavery of Muslims, opposing vernacular Bibles, opposing vernacular services, abuse of indulgences, etc. All of these issues challenge the faith since they were examples of faith and moral issues that were taught by the Holy Father.

And what about when the church changes her mind? Vernacular services, Bibles, slavery, and even some philisophical positions have changed. Reading the history of the church, I am disturbed by the development of certain teachings which involved reversals. Reversals seem to imply fault and not infallibility. It also leaves the door open for modern liberalism.
 
Hieroglyph:

Read through this; then ask more questions if you want to. 🙂

infallibility

God bless,
jd
" Finally, it is objected that the acceptance of ecclesiastical infallibility is incompatible with the theory of doctrinal development which Catholics commonly admit. But so far is this from being true that it is impossible to frame any theory of development, consistent with Catholic principles, in which infallible authority is not recognized as a guiding and controlling factor. For development in the Catholic sense does not mean that the Church ever changes her definitive teaching, but merely that as time goes on and human science advances, her teaching is more deeply analyzed, more fully comprehended, and more perfectly coordinated and explained in itself and in its bearings on other departments of knowledge. It is only on the false supposition that development means change in definitive teaching that the objection has any real forc
 
" Finally, it is objected that the acceptance of ecclesiastical infallibility is incompatible with the theory of doctrinal development which Catholics commonly admit. But so far is this from being true that it is impossible to frame any theory of development, consistent with Catholic principles, in which infallible authority is not recognized as a guiding and controlling factor. For development in the Catholic sense does not mean that the Church ever changes her definitive teaching, but merely that as time goes on and human science advances, her teaching is more deeply analyzed, more fully comprehended, and more perfectly coordinated and explained in itself and in its bearings on other departments of knowledge. It is only on the false supposition that development means change in definitive teaching that the objection has any real forc
If more comprehension means that the teaching can be reversed, then doesn’t that undercut the whole point of infallibility?
 
There is no need to dream up anything. History and modern liberalism pose plenty of problems themselves. And the catechism is a fairly modern invention, though I greatly enjoyed the St Joseph catechism I read.
Medieval and historical catholic positions that seem morally wrong or defective. Supporting slavery of Muslims, opposing vernacular Bibles, opposing vernacular services, abuse of indulgences, etc. All of these issues challenge the faith since they were examples of faith and moral issues that were taught by the Holy Father.
You are mixing apples and oranges. The Church never taught that slavery was permissible and certainly no Pope ever did. It admonished owners of slaves to treat their slaves as " their brothers in Christ " not as property. In so doing the Church was acknowledging the existence of a prevailing evil from which God would draw a greater good - the end of slavery. And the use of vernacular and indulgences falls under Discipline and per se is neither a faith or a moral issue. The Church is perfectly free to change Discipline to suit historical circumstances. The abuse of indulgences was never approved by the Church and certainly not by the Pope. But it is an example of situation to which the Church was slow to respond. The reason for the slow response involves historical questions I am ignorant of. But those engaged in such practices were morally wrong, at least objectivelly.
And what about when the church changes her mind? Vernacular services, Bibles, slavery, and even some philisophical positions have changed. Reading the history of the church, I am disturbed by the development of certain teachings which involved reversals. Reversals seem to imply fault and not infallibility. It also leaves the door open for modern liberalism.
Issues crop up at various times and are dealt with when they become a real problem. This does not involve " new doctrines " or new positions on morality or faith. In faith and morals the Church teaches today what the Church has always believed. But at times ( i.e. the Assumption of Mary, the condemnation of embyonic cell research, the use of new forms of contraceptives, etc.) Traditionally held matters of Faith and Morals are made more clear and specific to a particular historical situation or mind set. Only Discipline changes from time to time. 👍
 
You are mixing apples and oranges. The Church never taught that slavery was permissible and certainly no Pope ever did.:
Popes having slaves is public enough to cause scandal and to teach the unwary that slavery is ok.

"For many centuries the Church was part of a slave-holding society. The popes themselves held slaves, including at times hundreds of Muslim captives to man their galleys. Throughout Christian antiquity and the Middle Ages, theologians generally followed St. Augustine in holding that although slavery was not written into the natural moral law it was not absolutely forbidden by that law. St. Thomas Aquinas, Luther, and Calvin were all Augustinian on this point. Although the subjection of one person to another (servitus) was not part of the primary intention of the natural law, St. Thomas taught, it was appropriate and socially useful in a world impaired by original sin. " - Cardinal Dulles
firstthings.com/article/2007/01/development-or-reversal-37

Slavery is a matter of faith and morals, thus the position of the doctors of the church who thought it permissible under some circumstances is scandalous. Equally, current Catholic teaching refers to it as an infamy, but not an intrinsic evil.
The abuse of indulgences was never approved by the Church and certainly not by the Pope.
The indulgences that are most bothersome are those personally signed and authorized by the Pope which granted plenary indulgence AND remission of all sins in exchange for donations to the building of St Peters. This became the cause of great scandal at the time and led to attacks from many corners including Wittenberg university’s Martin Luther. Luther’s attacks would later be brought to trial, at which time he began to rethink and reject a whole host of church teachings. Ironically, after Luther was thrown out of the Church, the Church did reverse itself on the indulgence, however by that time Luther had already embraced a host of other reform stances, so the reversal came too late to stop the Reformation snowball. Protestant Source: Here I Stand pg 55-200

The Catholic encyclopedia confirms that the indulgences were authorized by the Pope, bold added:
"The epoch-making event connected with the publication of the papal Bull of Indulgences in Germany, which was that of Julius II renewed in adaptable form by Leo X, to raise funds for the construction of St. Peter’s Church in Rome, brought his spiritual difficulties to a crisis.

Albert of Brandenburg was heavily involved in debt, not, as Protestant and Catholic historians relate, on account of his pallium, but to pay a bribe to an unknown agent in Rome, to buy off a rival, in order that the archbishop might enjoy a plurality of ecclesiastical offices. For this payment, which smacked of simony, the pope would allow an indemnity, which in this case took the form of an indulgence. By this ignoble business arrangement with Rome, a financial transaction unworthy of both pope and archbishop, the revenue should be partitioned in equal halves to each, besides a bonus of 10,000 gold ducats, which should fall to the share of Rome.
…It is not denied that a doctrine like that of the indulgences, which in some aspects was still a disputable subject in the schools, was open to misunderstanding by the laity; that the preachers in the heat of rhetorical enthusiasm fell into exaggerated statements, or that the financial considerations attached, though not of an obligatory character, led to abuse and scandal. The opposition to indulgences, not to the doctrine—which remains the same to this day—but to the mercantile methods pursued in preaching them, was not new or silent. Duke George of Saxony prohibited them in his territory, and Cardinal Ximenes, as early as 1513, forbade them in Spain. "
newadvent.org/cathen/09438b.htm

So I am left with doctrine, which is to be accepted as infallible, but which may be allowed to be misunderstood, abused, and scandalized even within infallibility? This really undercuts my whole understanding of what infallibility means. So if I follow Cardinal Dulles correctly, then only the original doctrines are infallible, NOT the current application in any specific culture. This seems to coincide with the liberal interpretation in practice or moral application, though not in theory. For example, it would be licit for the Church to change the application of the commandment that thou shalt not commit adultery in relation to birth control and so on as liberals have pressed for, so long as the Church continues to affirm the doctrine of no adultery. Thus it would appear that the laity have misunderstood the position of the church in regards to infallibility to mean that the teachings are infallible, when instead the Church only means that the original or most basic teachings are and not the applications.
 
Popes having slaves is public enough to cause scandal and to teach the unwary that slavery is ok.
Then you would have a different definition of papal infallibility than does the Church.
Remember, failure to follow doctrine is not the same as actively teaching the contrary of doctrine.

As for your example, it is very confusing. I’m not sure how contraception is logically related to adultery, or further, how the commandment against adultery is applied to give us a prohibition against contraception. Regardless, contraception isn’t anything new, really. And you have Church teaching against it from the beginning… even before the Church with the Jews if I am not mistaken. But you still have popes and bishops in the modern era teaching the same thing… it will, however, always remain for you to realize that something is an act of contraception and therefore wrong (trivial point, but true).

But in response to your general gist, welcome to the world of human actions where people may act in all sorts of stupid ways. Please take a moment and think what life would be like if your definition of infallibility were true and you may come closer to the Church’s definition.

Good luck!
 
The Magisterium teaches infallibly in any of three ways:
  1. Papal Infallibility, by solemn definitions of the Pope
  2. Conciliar Infallibility, by solemn definitions of an Ecumenical Council
  3. the ordinary and universal Magisterium:
Second Vatican Council: “Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ’s doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held.” (Lumen Gentium 25)

All other teachings of the Magisterium, that is, teachings on matters of faith and morals that do not fall under any of the three types of infallibility, are non-infallible and non-irreformable, and are subject to a limited possibility of error and reform.

There are two types of assent to these two types of teaching.

Infallible teachings require the full assent of faith, which is an exercise of the infused theological virtue of faith. This type of assent is called theological assent or the assent of divine and catholic faith.

Non-infallible teachings require a different type and degree of assent, called religious submission of mind and will, or religious assent.
 
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