Infallibility of Church?

[MT1926]

just saying it can be problematic, doesn’t have to be but can be, for same cited reasons that circumcision was.

Sure based on your criteria. But you have to admit ir can in the same way that it can be problematic in a young adult.

No , I said knowing what is happening to you is one thing (that you are being baptized, or that you “changed”), apart from any cooperation and free will, which is utilized by an adult baptism, though effected by grace.

Once again more stuff. Don’t really think being born again is based on whether or not you think you have changed. It’s not up to you it’s up to God.

God Bless

 

[mcq72]

Sure based on your criteria. But you have to admit ir can in the same way that it can be problematic in a young adult.

That is right.

Once again more stuff. Don’t really think being born again is based on whether or not you think you have changed. It’s not up to you it’s up to God.

Yes it is up to God, and why I dont like basing it on what we do or have done for us, such as baptism.

Don’t base it on understanding or change, but one is certainly changed and certainly comes to understand…

 

[MT1926]

Yes it is up to God, and why I dont like basing it on what we do or have done for us, such as baptism.

Then as I have already stated once. If you can’t have assurance that you are born again because of the sign of the new covenant Baptism given to us by Jesus. Then there is no way you can prove, in this lifetime, that you were born again.

Basically you have guy one says I was born again when I was physically baptized. Vs guy two who says I was born again when I said I was.

You claim you can stand there and say guy one is wrong guy twois right, even though you can see the evidence from guy one and have no way of knowing if guy two is lieing to both you and himself.

Don’t base it on understanding or change, but one is certainly changed and certainly comes to understand…

I agree. However, it seems the difference between us is I believe one is born again and after this happens they become changed and come to understanding. Where as it seems from your statements, unless the change and understanding occurs first then they’re not there yet.

God Bless

 

[mcq72]

Where as it seems from your statements, unless the change and understanding occurs first then they’re not there yet.

Lol, for the millionth time ( how is that for hyperbole), these are not prerequisites for new birth. Perhaps you think that of me because I say it is a prerequisite for water baptism. One is baptized after they believe, after they come to see and understand.

If you can’t have assurance that you are born again because of the sign of the new covenant Baptism given to us by Jesus.

Well you can have assurance that you are born again. I mean I just got done stating again of a change, a change of understanding, a change of faith. I have also stated that the Spirit bears witness to our regenerated, born again spirit that we are, and that we are a child of God, born of the Spirit. Even Peter says about baptism it is not the outward sign that counts as much ( the washing away of dirt) but of the inner awareness of a clean conscience towards God, the enmity between gone!

Just because baptism or an altar call or prayer or an experience one might have surrounding new birth is problematic ( may not be real McCoy), does not mean it can not also be very real. But, if it is real, if faith and new life is real, it will be followed by works to that effect.

But again, anything real can be faked, any outward deed can be fake, but you cant fake a converted heart, a clean conscience. And sooner or later it is borne out, comes to light. And once again, this is where baptismal doctrine matters, of teaching that it is always effectual and makes one born again, or not. You are either a butterfly or not. You either have wings or not. It would be foolish for the caterpillar to just try harder to be like the butterfly.

 

[thistle]

Basically you have guy one says I was born again when I was physically baptized.

This one is correct. You are Catholic so you should know this. It is what the Church teaches.

 

[steve-b]

steve-b:

Jesus ultimately required everyone to be together. Not just sort of together, but perfectly together.

"If it be possible, as much as is in you, have peace with all men. "

Sorry , not quite exact on my quote, but still same, that perfection of togetherness is conditional (two people), if not problematic, but yes the goal

thanks

Rm 12:18 makes sense “If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all.” (RSV-CE)

Absolutely good advice.

AND for context

Paul’s advice there, doesn’t negate what he also taught HERE in Romans and Galatians

 

[MT1926]

Perhaps you think that of me because I say it is a prerequisite for water baptism.

No, this because 11 days ago you said…

If the flesh ain’t killed totally by your baptism, or in your confession of faith, you aren’t their yet , not in saving grace yet, for no flesh shall enter the kingdom.

We were talking about being born again and this was your response. This is the basis of why it seems you believe the change (flesh killed totally) and understanding (confession of faith) must occur first. The “prerequisites” that you now say don’t exist?

I’m not being rude here, it just seems you throw out these explicit statements as facts of how you know someone isn’t born again then say the very thing you use to know someone isn’t born again really isn’t a prerequisite. Well if it isn’t required then how do you use it to show they aren’t born again when it’s not present?

Even Peter says about baptism…

I think the important part of that verse is Baptism now saves you.

Just because baptism or an altar call or prayer or an experience one might have surrounding new birth is problematic ( may not be real McCoy),

When I read the Bible I only see one of those being talked about as being the real McCoy.

But, if it is real, if faith and new life is real, it will be followed by works to that effect.

Agree

But again, anything real can be faked, any outward deed can be fake, but you cant fake a converted heart, a clean conscience.

Sure you can. You don’t believe a person with an unclean conscience is capable of convincing themselves their conscience is clean. Heck that’s actually a bigger problem than the people who admit their conscience is unclean.

And once again, this is where baptismal doctrine matters, of teaching that it is always effectual and makes one born again, or not.

I agree and I think this is the issue. Catholic doctrine doesn’t believe Being born again is the end of salvation we believe it is the beginning of our walk with Christ. We believe when we are born again God’s grace is effectual to push us to walk with Christ. The good works you spoke of. However, we also believe one who is born again has the free will to walk away later in life. Just because we walk away doesn’t mean God failed to do his part in making us born again. It just means we threw that free gift back at God.

You are either a butterfly or not. You either have wings or not. It would be foolish for the caterpillar to just try harder to be like the butterfly.

And the butterfly could do something stupid against his nature and lose his wings causing him to crash and burn ( pun intended)

God Bless

 

[mcq72]

, this because 11 days ago you said…

mcq72:

If the flesh ain’t killed totally by your baptism, or in your confession of faith, you aren’t their yet , not in saving grace yet, for no flesh shall enter the kingdom.

First, the quote deals with your baptism or a protestant counterpart, confession of faith. The quote does not deal with a P being born again, for that is something that happens prior or just prior to confession/ baptism. But from C baptism you say it is one and same ( rebirth with baptism). So I posted the flesh must fully have been put to death if it is a true birth, a true confession.Another words if one is not sincere in their confession, or not sincere in an adult Catholic baptism, I would think it proper to have option to question the effectualness of the baptism should counseling be sought out later.

Do you think God revives a spirit in an insincere, carnal baptism?

I mean the bible says cry out to the Lord and you shall be saved. Do you think all cries are the same, are they all from an abased and broken heart? Can a cry be motivated for what I want and not for what God wants?

I think it problematic to, in backward fashion, apply doctrine that infants are born again in baptism to adults, that they do nothing to be born again also.

Again change and understanding come when one is broken in their flesh and spirit.
For the umpteenth time understanding and change come with new birth, not before.

Are there prerequisites to being born again, absolutely, but only that which a carnal, fleshly, unrevived spirit can do or what you call prevenient grace I think.

 

[MT1926]

Like I said in my last post I think the problem we are having is we have different meanings of what it means to be born again.

Maybe we can start over. If I knew exactly what you mean and why, when you say born again, it might help.

Catholics believe being born again is the beginning of our journey not the end…

1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua) ,4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

[1214] This sacrament is called Baptism , after the central rite by which it is carried out: to baptize (Greek baptizein ) means to “plunge” or “immerse”; the “plunge” into the water symbolizes the catechumen’s burial into Christ’s death, from which he rises up by resurrection with him, as "a new creature."6

[1215] This sacrament is also called " the washing of regeneration and renewal by the Holy Spirit ," for it signifies and actually brings about the birth of water and the Spirit without which no one "can enter the kingdom of God."7

[1216] "This bath is called enlightenment , because those who receive this [catechetical] instruction are enlightened in their understanding . . . ."8 Having received in Baptism the Word, “the true light that enlightens every man,” the person baptized has been “enlightened,” he becomes a “son of light,” indeed, he becomes “light” himself:9

Do you think God revives a spirit in an insincere, carnal baptism?

I’m thinking it depends on what you mean when you say “carnal baptism”.

I think it problematic to, in backward fashion, apply doctrine that infants are born again in baptism to adults, that they do nothing to be born again also.

What infant doctrine do you believe is being applied to adults?

Again change and understanding come when one is broken in their flesh and spirit.
For the umpteenth time understanding and change come with new birth, not before.

I’m starting to wonder what you mean when one is broken in their flesh and spirit? or like you said above the flesh ain’t killed totally?

Could you please describe what the flesh killed totally is?

Are there prerequisites to being born again, absolutely, but only that which a carnal, fleshly, unrevived spirit can do or what you call prevenient grace I think.

Once again I think it comes down to your definition of carnal, fleshly, unrevived spirit? We believe one can be born again in Baptism before they succumb to their fleshly natures (sin).

Looking forward to some more insight on what is meant by the words “born again”.

God Bless

 

[mcq72]

I’m thinking it depends on what you mean when you say “carnal baptism”.

mcq72:

ok, closest thing is the insincere, or wrong motivations (carnal as opposed to spiritual, to please or help self instead of please, glorify God).

I’m starting to wonder what you mean when one is broken in their flesh and spirit? or like you said above the flesh ain’t killed totally?

Could you please describe what the flesh killed totally is?

mcq72:

Well similar to "burial into Christ’s death, as “a new creature.” Can one try to save some of his old nature, have impure, selfish, insincere motivations. Do we not offer ourselves to die , In Christ, and so can one partially do that ? A little bit like Ananias , partially giving and partially keeping.

For example I once heard that if you get baptized just so you don’t go to hell, you probably don’t qualify for a sincere participation in the sacrament/rite.

i have also heard it said that it is like breaking a stallion. breaking is the wrong word. transfer is a better word. These horses are meant to follow a leader. They are very social complete with heirarchy. Man can get a horse to transfer his allegiance from the top horse to the man, after the man can show he is worthy to be followed, can be trusted, and that he is actually calling to be followed. There is only room for leader. The transfer must be complete , not partial.

So to our will must totally transfer trust from oneself, from “saving” oneself, to totally trusting God to take over and lead where one would previously not go.

I think that is what I mean by totally dying to self, to one’s flesh, carnal nature.

[

 

[mcq72]

Looking forward to some more insight on what is meant by the words “born again”.

As to this , we learned that man was made in image of God, not that God has flesh for He is a spirit. So man is a spiritual being, as exhibited in Garden where we naturally walked and talked with God, in innocence.Sin then entered and we were separated form God (we hid, covering our own sin with leaves). Our spirits died(in that day you shall surely die) dead in sin. The spirit could no longer connect with God properly, in holiness/innocence

God in His grace then reconciled. He shed blood of an animal to cover the sin, and restored, justified a spiritual relation with Adam and Eve with a promise of further restoration, justification thru a future Messiah. Apparently Adam and Eve believed, unto salvation, even for us all . To me they were born of the spirit again, revived.

This was the model for OT. The bible says some men walked with God, others did not. These were prophesied in garden, some seed of Satan, some sons,seed of the promise, of Eve.

So born again is regeneration, or sometimes referred as being born of God, born of/in the spirit. The role of the Holy Ghost was to convict of sin, judgement and righteousness in the Holy One to come, the ultimate justifier and reconciler. The Holy Ghost was with OT saints, even indwelling sometimes for special feats .

So by the time Jesus arrives , you see Him tell Nicodemus that he should know this stuff, about being born again, born of God, born of the Spirit.

For us the new thing is permanent indwelling of the Holy Ghost, even his baptism and giftings. By peremanet I don’t mean OSAS , but as different from OT, where it was temporary.

But born again is what happens to us, to our spirit, irregardless of dispensational differences of how Holy Ghost plays a role. It goes from Adam and Eve to us, this “born again”. Some also suggest that the Holy Ghost is doing nothing new, that what He does in NT He did in OT, just in different magnitude and scale, for indeed Today His Spirit is being poured out over all the earth , over all humanity to hear.

 

[MT1926]

Can one try to save some of his old nature, have impure, selfish, insincere motivations.

Still not following you. Are you saying we aren’t born again until we no longer commit sin? I mean nobody is perfect. I do my best to carry the crosses Christ has put in my life but sometimes they become more than I can handle and a stumble and fall into selfishness.

Do we not offer ourselves to die , In Christ, and so can one partially do that ?

I think many do. Sometimes life becomes more than we can bear and we fall from Grace. This doesn’t mean we were never born again to begin with it means we lost our way and need to find it again.

So to our will must totally transfer trust from oneself, from “saving” oneself, to totally trusting God to take over and lead where one would previously not go.

If I’m following your analogy correctly It seems Catholics believe being born again is the beginning of the transfer where as you believe it is after the transfer is complete.

How do you come to this conclusion? Biblically that is.

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

To me they were born of the spirit again, revived.

Yes I am realizing this, but you aren’t really showing me where this is taught in the OT.

It seems what you say here is the foundation of everything you are taught about being born again. Seeing that you are sola scriptura shouldn’t this be firmly grounded in the OT and easily pointed to in scripture?

I don’t mean to come across pushy or anything but if Nicodemus should “know this stuff” could you please point to the scriptural references that Nicodemus should have so easily seen? Because not only does Nic not see it but I don’t think any of the Church Fathers or any other evidence shows us that the early Christans saw it either.

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[thistle]

what is meant by the words “born again”.

How many times do we have to say it. “Born again” is when you are baptised.

 

[MT1926]

How many times do we have to say it. “Born again” is when you are baptised.

Thanks thistle. I do agree that this happens when one is Baptized but if you look closer at my question I didn’t ask when it occurs I asked him WHAT IS THE MEANING of those words. I asked because it seemed like the reason we keep going round and round is because we were both saying the same words, born again, but we weren’t MEANING the same thing when we said those words.

I already posted the Catholic meaning of those words up above. Do you agree with the MEANING I posted above or do you have a different MEANING for those words?

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[thistle]

Thanks thistle. I do agree that this happens when one is Baptized but if you look closer at my question I didn’t ask when it occurs I asked him WHAT IS THE MEANING of those words. I asked because it seemed like the reason we keep going round and round is because we were both saying the same words, born again, but we weren’t MEANING the same thing when we said those words.

I already posted the Catholic meaning of those words up above. Do you agree with the MEANING I posted above or do you have a different MEANING for those words?

Thanks,

God Bless

It means born again in Christ when baptised. It does not mean born again in any other circumstances.

 

[Wannano]

MT1926:

Thanks thistle. I do agree that this happens when one is Baptized but if you look closer at my question I didn’t ask when it occurs I asked him WHAT IS THE MEANING of those words. I asked because it seemed like the reason we keep going round and round is because we were both saying the same words, born again, but we weren’t MEANING the same thing when we said those words.

I already posted the Catholic meaning of those words up above. Do you agree with the MEANING I posted above or do you have a different MEANING for those words?

Thanks,

God Bless

It means born again in Christ when baptised. It does not mean born again in any other circumstances.

I am enjoying this conversation this morning, however your answer to MT1926, did not for me at least, answer his question which I think is a question of utmost importance, ie, what is the meaning of being born again? Or to implement your phrase, what is the meaning of being born again in Christ?

 

[Wannano]

thistle:

How many times do we have to say it. “Born again” is when you are baptised.

Thanks thistle. I do agree that this happens when one is Baptized but if you look closer at my question I didn’t ask when it occurs I asked him WHAT IS THE MEANING of those words. I asked because it seemed like the reason we keep going round and round is because we were both saying the same words, born again, but we weren’t MEANING the same thing when we said those words.

I already posted the Catholic meaning of those words up above. Do you agree with the MEANING I posted above or do you have a different MEANING for those words?

Thanks,

God Bless

Is the Catholic meaning found in the articles 1213 to 1216 inclusive?

I found the words of those articles quite meaningful as it relates to an adult baptism but I can’t follow the rationale when applied to infants.

 

[MT1926]

It means born again in Christ when baptised.

Sorry it seems we are talking past one another. To say born again in Christ is still just words on a page that can have different MEANINGS to different people.

What I am asking is what do these words mean to you?

Basically, what I am getting at is some believe being born again is a new birth in Christ. This birth is the beginning of our faith journey not the end.

Where as it seems others are saying when we are born again we are there, it is the end of the journey, it is finished and we have the Holy Spirit within us and all of the gifts that come with the Holy Spirit.

I say seems here because that what it seems they are saying, which is why I ask for clarification.

Thanks,

God Bless

 

[MT1926]

Is the Catholic meaning found in the articles 1213 to 1216 inclusive?

I found the words of those articles quite meaningful as it relates to an adult baptism but I can’t follow the rationale when applied to infants.

No here is the entire section if you would like to read it.

It goes from 1213 to 1284. 1250 touches on infant Baptism but you really need to read what is said there in the context of the entire chapter.

Hope this helps,

God Bless