Infallibility of the Church

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DM_P

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What is the best argument for this? This guy im discussing with is a little persistent and would like to ask for good arguments against his claim. Here are his arguments:
You told me that because of the church we have the Scriptures… and I told you the canon became canon once God spoke… NOT when His people recognized them as Scripture. So prior to collection of the canon you said the Scriptures did not function as such until the church said it was so… how then do you say that the pope can function infallibly prior to 1870 if they had yet recognized it was so? You would have to take one of two positions:
  1. That the church is above Scripture since you’re not applying the same standard of measure of determining authenticity.
  2. Scripture DID function as Scripture prior to it being defined as such by any formal council.
Again, you have to admit Sola ecclesia if you take the first route.

If you take the second route, you have to admit Sola Scriptura because ultimately it would be Scriptural authority that takes precedence.​

Btw, i did not told him scriptures does not function as such until the church said it so. I did not know where he got it. So to continue with his arguments here it is:
only Scripture is referred to as θεόπνευστος…

Regarding John 16:13.

I didn’t say the apostles were infallible I said the Holy Spirit is.
In fact, that was my point. I wasn’t denying special authority by the apostles… but even they answered back to Scripture on all their teachings… (today’s OT).

That’s my whole problem with the RCC. They place themselves above the Lord.

2 Peter 1:17-21 (I did not include the verse)

It is very clear that only God’s words hold the weight to command authority for life. You say Sola Scriptura is not taught? I would contest that it is more than clear that we are to hold to Scripture as the only such thing as infallible.

Even Peter, who saw Christ transfigured, regarded Scripture as much better than and “more sure” than such experiences.

And I feel compelled to remind you that Sola Scriptura does not mean Scripture isolated… it means: “Scripture alone as the sole infallible rule of faith for the church”.
Due to character limit in the post, I’ll post the continuation in the replies. (oh please bear with me) thank you
 
Here is the continuation:
Here are is what the 1689 London Baptist Confession says:
“The authority of Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, and obeyed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man, or church, but wholly upon God (Who is truth itself) the author thereof: and therefore it is to be received, because it is the word of God.”

But again… this document I appealed to is a standard… yet a subordinate standard to Scripture.

And regarding your statement of infallibility to the disciples:

If it was given them infallibility then what about the OT prophets?..should be say they spoke infallibly as well?.. yet there is nothing in Scripture that says such “power” was conferred on them… and, if not, does this mean I’m to assume they were errant when they spoke? I doubt it… my point is that it is God who speaks infallibility. Not men. And you can’t therefore say that John 16:13 says such an exclusive thing to the disciples and not others.

Another thing about oral tradition:

You remember corban in Mark 7?.. this was a tradition of the Jews and was transmitted orally through generations. Yet they did so fallibly. How do I know? Jesus corrects them:

Mark 7:6-12 NASBS

And He corrects them with Scripture at that! Again point here is the word as infallible. Not people.​

That was a little lengthy, but I consider this as a good way to learn to debate with non-catholics. I hope you can help me on this. Thank you so much in advance.

David
 
DM_P said:
You told me that because of the church we have the Scriptures… and I told you the canon became canon once God spoke… NOT when His people recognized them as Scripture.
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Because of the Church, we know which ancient writings were really God’s Word and approved for reading during the Liturgy. There were hundreds of writings floating around, some bearing the names of Aposltles, and not all of them were really God’s Word. Scripture was Scripture before anyone said it was, but without the Church to tell us so, we would not know which writings were Scripture vs. those which were not.
Sure, Scripture functioned as Scripture prior to the Canon.
DM_P said:
only Scripture is referred to as θεόπνευστος
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If this is supposed to mean that sola Scriptura is true, then it excludes the New Testament, because this was written before most of the New Testament was written and was only referring to the Old Testament which Timothy has learned in his youth (which was the Greek-speaking Jewish Canon, which is the one Catholics still use today).
But don’t forget that Christ ALSO breathed authority into His Apostles (Jn 20:21-23). And the only time we see God breathing into man was when He breathed life into Adam.

As to infallibility, it was Christ Who made His Church infallible…incapable of teaching error. And it only makes sense, otherwise, you’d end up with hundreds or thousands of differing opinions about what the Scriptures “meant” by such-n-such verse, which would lead to divisions and people making their own churches where only the “real” truth is taught…just like in protestantism today.

Christ’s Church is infallible because He said so. HE made it the “pillar and bulwark of Truth” (1Tim 3:15). HE said that the Spirit will lead the Church into ALL truth (Jn 14:26, Jn 16:13, 1Jn 2:27) for ALL time (Mt 28:18-20). HE promised that whoever listened to them would be listening to Christ Himself (Lk 10:16). God’s own inspired written Word attests that the Church speaks on behalf of the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:28).

Catholics put their faith in Jesus Christ on this matter. We believe what He said as shown to us in the written Word of God.
 
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Matthew 16:16-18 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

75 "Christ the Lord, in whom the entire Revelation of the most high God is summed up, commanded the apostles to preach the Gospel, which had been promised beforehand by the prophets, and which he fulfilled in his own person and promulgated with his own lips. In preaching the Gospel, they were to communicate the gifts of God to all men. This Gospel was to be the source of all saving truth and moral discipline."32

In the apostolic preaching. . .

76 In keeping with the Lord’s command, the Gospel was handed on in two ways:
  • orally “by the apostles who handed on, by the spoken word of their preaching, by the example they gave, by the institutions they established, what they themselves had received - whether from the lips of Christ, from his way of life and his works, or whether they had learned it at the prompting of the Holy Spirit”;33
  • in writing “by those apostles and other men associated with the apostles who, under the inspiration of the same Holy Spirit, committed the message of salvation to writing”.34
. . . continued in apostolic succession

77 "In order that the full and living Gospel might always be preserved in the Church the apostles left bishops as their successors. They gave them their own position of teaching authority."35 Indeed, "the apostolic preaching, which is expressed in a special way in the inspired books, was to be preserved in a continuous line of succession until the end of time."36

78 This living transmission, accomplished in the Holy Spirit, is called Tradition, since it is distinct from Sacred Scripture, though closely connected to it. Through Tradition, "the Church, in her doctrine, life and worship, perpetuates and transmits to every generation all that she herself is, all that she believes."37 "The sayings of the holy Fathers are a witness to the life-giving presence of this Tradition, showing how its riches are poured out in the practice and life of the Church, in her belief and her prayer."38

79 The Father’s self-communication made through his Word in the Holy Spirit, remains present and active in the Church: "God, who spoke in the past, continues to converse with the Spouse of his beloved Son. And the Holy Spirit, through whom the living voice of the Gospel rings out in the Church - and through her in the world - leads believers to the full truth, and makes the Word of Christ dwell in them in all its richness."39
 
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80 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal."40 Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ, who promised to remain with his own “always, to the close of the age”.41

. . . two distinct modes of transmission

81 "Sacred Scripture is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit."42

"And [Holy] Tradition transmits in its entirety the Word of God which has been entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit. It transmits it to the successors of the apostles so that, enlightened by the Spirit of truth, they may faithfully preserve, expound and spread it abroad by their preaching."43

82 As a result the Church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scripture and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence."44
 
Protestants claim the Bible is the only rule of faith, meaning that it contains all of the material one needs for theology and that this material is sufficiently clear that one does not need apostolic tradition or the Church’s magisterium (teaching authority) to help one understand it. In the Protestant view, the whole of Christian truth is found within the Bible’s pages. Anything extraneous to the Bible is simply non-authoritative, unnecessary, or wrong—and may well hinder one in coming to God.

Catholics, on the other hand, recognize that the Bible does not endorse this view and that, in fact, it is repudiated in Scripture. The true “rule of faith”—as expressed in the Bible itself—is Scripture plus apostolic tradition, as manifested in the living teaching authority of the Catholic Church, to which were entrusted the oral teachings of Jesus and the apostles, along with the authority to interpret Scripture correctly.

In the Second Vatican Council’s document on divine revelation, Dei Verbum (Latin: “The Word of God”), the relationship between Tradition and Scripture is explained: "Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence
 
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Francis said:
Hence there exists a close connection and communication between sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture. For both of them, flowing from the same divine wellspring, in a certain way merge into a unity and tend toward the same end. For sacred Scripture is the word of God inasmuch as it is consigned to writing under the inspiration of the divine Spirit. To the successors of the apostles, sacred Tradition hands on in its full purity God’s word, which was entrusted to the apostles by Christ the Lord and the Holy Spirit.

Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence
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HI
“Francis said:
Thus, by the light of the Spirit of truth, these successors can in their preaching preserve this word of God faithfully, explain it, and make it more widely known. Consequently it is not from sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same devotion and reverence
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Hi Francis, thank you for your reply. Is this last paragraph included in the quote or was this part of your explanation? I will try to use this quote to my friend.
 
Ask him where Jesus taught bible alone.

Period.

Tell him, charitably, that he follows man’s version of Christ and not Christ’s version of Christ.
 
It’s the part of the last paragraph.
As not everything is written in the bible. John 21:24 says This is the disciple who is testifying to these things and has written them, and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things that Jesus did; if every one of them were written down, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Sure, Scripture are Scriptures which God has spoken or give .If the Catholic Church wouldn’t have preserved and faithfully handed down to us, would you and I have the Bible (them)? No, you have to acknowledge the facts. Learn you history lessons about the Church, before you make comments. It was Jesus himself who established the Catholic Church when he said specifically to peter (Now don’t give silly excuses that he said about himself as the Rock ) it’s very clear in this context he said to peter ) in Matthew 16:16-18. The Catholic officially begins in Acts 2 Full ,When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 2 And suddenly from heaven there came a sound like the rush of a violent wind, and it filled the entire house where they were sitting. Acts 14. 14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, raised his voice and addressed them, “Men of Judea and all who live in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to what I say….
Before the foundations of the world the Holy Trinity planned and decided to establish the Catholic Church for the salvation of humans, because Jesus knows after his death, the effects of sin and satan would still obscure salvation of souls, that’s why he established the Catholic Church and the Successors of Peter, the Popes will guide the souls to Heaven through the (Catholic Church) through the sacraments, he would give them Faithful leaders in Jeremiah 3:15 I will give you shepherds (St Peter and his Successors the Popes) after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Finally Only The Catholic Church has the sole right to interpret the scriptures and to correct errors Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son. 2 Timothy 3: 13 But wicked people and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, 15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work.
2 Peter 1:20-21 20 First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, 21 because no prophecy ever came by human will, but men and women moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
 
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Papacy/infallibility
Mt 10:1-4; Mk 3:16-19; Lk 6:14-16; Acts 1:13; Lk 9:32 … Peter always mentioned first, as foremost apostle.
Mt 18:21; Mk 8:29; Lk 12:41; Jn 6:69 … Peter speaks for the apostles.
Acts 2:14-40 … Pentecost: Peter who first preached.
Acts 3:6-7 … Peter worked first healing.
Acts 10:46-48 … Gentiles to be baptized revealed to Peter.
Jn 1:42 … Simon is Cephas (Aramaic: Kepha for rock).
Mt 16:18-19 … “on this Rock … keys … bind … loose”
Is 22:22; Rev 1:18 … keys as symbol of authority.
Jn 21:17 … “feed my sheep”
Lk 22:31-32 … “Simon … strengthen your brethren”.
Lk 10:1-2, 16; Jn 13:20; 2 Cor 5:20; Gal 4:14; Acts 5:1-5 … “vicars” (substitutes) of Christ.
Mk 6:20; Lk 1:70,2:23; Rom 12:1; Act 3:21, 1 Cor 7:14; Eph 3:5; Col 1:22 … humans can be holy (“call no one holy”).
 
DM_P said:
Mark 7:6-12 NASBS

And He corrects them with Scripture at that! Again point here is the word as infallible. Not people.
That was a little lengthy, but I consider this as a good way to learn to debate with non-catholics. I hope you can help me on this. Thank you so much in advance.
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He did quote Mark 7:6-12 comparing the church to the Authorities of the Jews. He pointed out that in this verse that the Jews taught wrong doctrine. If this was the case with the Jews, he then concludes that the church also can fall like this. I do know Jews have authority at that time. But I don’t know if God gave them infallibility. Am I correct?
 
@DM_P

The Church was established by Christ. That Church, which Scripture calls the pillar of truth, can only be the Catholic Church, based on what the Apostles understood of Christ’s teachings, beginning with the primacy of the pope. in Jeremiah 3:15 I will give you shepherds (St Peter and his Successors the Popes) after my own heart, who will feed you with knowledge and understanding.Acts 20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and over all the flock, of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own Son.

The jews can be compared to protestants they are disobedient stubborn who have falsely hatred for Catholics they know scriptures only in studies and not in the spirit

.“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.” Fulton J. Sheen

2 Timothy 3: 13 But wicked people and impostors will go from bad to worse, deceiving others and being deceived. 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it, 15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
 
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The authority held by the Pharisees was not infallible. But the Jews were obligated to obey them as they would Moses. Jesus corrected them for making lesser traditions added on by successors of Moses carry more weight than the written Law that came directly from Moses.

The teaching authority of the Church is infallible because it is handed down from Christ who is infallible. Being God the authority carries the weight of God and the successors that carry that authority have the Holy Spirit to preserve what they teach from error
 
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The Authority was given to the Catholic by Jesus himself which is from above

John 3:27;31-35 John answered, “No one can receive anything except what has been given from heaven. 31 The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is of the earth belongs to the earth and speaks about earthly things. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32 He testifies to what he has seen and heard, yet no one accepts his testimony. 33 Whoever has accepted his testimony has certified[n] this, that God is true. 34 He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for he gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has placed all things in his hands. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure God’s wrath.
John 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above;….

Matthew 16:16-18 16 Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God.17 And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(The Catholic Church) Psalm 12:6 The promises of the LORD are promises that are pure,
silver refined in a furnace on the ground,
purified seven times.
 
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Why I believe in Apostolic Succession Apologetics
(Sorry for the obnoxious length of this) Authority is central to all other issues. Even when we, as reasonable men with our wills fully desiring to know God’s truth and who have turned our lives over to Jesus’ care, study scripture as well as we are able, we come to mutually exclusive conclusions about what it means. Because of the effects of original sin, our wills are weakened and our intellects are darkened. We are easily deceiv…
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