Infallibility: Will someone evaluate this article for me?

[po18guy]

catholicconcerns.com/Infallibility.html

Anyone know if these claims are true? If so, what’s our feedback? Thanks so much!

Whom do you trust? A woman who has lost her faith and has returned to worldly pursuits? Or the Holy Spirit, Which Christ Himself promised would lead the Church to all truth. Forever. Christ Himself instituted infallibility by sending the Holy Spirit upon the apostles at Pentecost. That pretty much settles it.

Recall also that Christ gave the Apostles the power of binding and loosing. They then held bound that their Apostolic authority was passed on to worthy, tested men by the laying on of hands. As has the guiding by the Holy Spirit, Apostolic succession has continued, uninterrupted, to this very day, and until the last day.

Christ’s peace.

 

[FCEGM]

All I’m saying is this. There is so much going on in Catholicism that it’s easy to find a place to hide and do your own thing if that’s what you want to do.

Yes, that can be true within our large Church - and on the smaller “playing field” of one’s local parish - , but that was not what you said earlier; you claimed that people who believe things diametrically opposed to what Christ teaches through His Church can be considered “good Catholics” and this is most definitely not the case. Further, even in hiding and doing your own thing, you cannot hide from God.

I was raised Catholic and I went to 4 yrs of Catholic high school and I never knew I was a Christian. I was taught as long as you are Catholic you’re OK. I was taught salvation by luck. If you sinned during the week you had to hope you didn’t die before your next confession. I came to understand the gospel through personal bible study and by attending Protestant churches.

I don’t doubt that many Catholic high schools have done a woefully inadequate job in instructing the youth placed in their charge, but can it also be that you weren’t paying much attention? And what Gospel did you later hear? The false gospel that all one has to do is accept Jesus Christ as one’s Savior and one is saved without fear of losing one’s salvation? Is it the false gospel that employs only Scripture and not Sacred Tradition and makes of one’s subjective understanding the final authority (from which, btw, and per the topic at hand, the Infallibility of the Church employed by the Bishop of Rome saves us)?

For instance when you listen to Billy Graham there is no way to misunderstand him. You repent and accept Jesus or keep walking.

What does it mean to accept Jesus if one does not also accept all He instructed us to do and does not accept all that that He gave to us in His Church?

When the Pope gets on TV I ask myself “What is he trying to say?” He talks about a lot of stuff but he rarely talks about believing in Jesus.

Then you have not heard the Holy Father speak, for this is his endless theme both in speaking and in writing. Here but a few examples:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20070720_youth_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20080824_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20080810_en.html

 

[ron77nyc]

And Jesus will say… “Hmmm Funny I checked my book here and it says that you did not killed millions like Hitler, or betrayed me like Judas, but willingly disobeyed the authority of my Church, which I clearly state in scripture is my authority”. Rebellion against the authority of God is a terrible thing… Satan tried that and look what it got him into.

In His love

 

[ron77nyc]

This bit of information makes me question certain individuals with a lot of authority and the traditions they follow. It makes a mockery out of fasting and penance. The last 3 paragraphs are really ridiculous.

Bishops Lift Meatless Friday Rule for St. Pat’s Day
By David Barnes
Religion News Service

Irish-loving Catholics face a St. Patrick’s Day dilemma this March 17. Do they follow the holiday’s tradition of eating corned beef or honor the church’s tradition of meatless Fridays during Lent?

Fortunately, cardinals and bishops are solving the problem in some parts of the country.
Dozens of Catholic dioceses have announced that they will grant indults – exceptions to the Catholic Church’s common law – to allow their members to eat meat on St. Patrick’s Day.

Chalk it up to the luck of the Irish.

“For those Catholics desiring some pastoral guidance regarding whether it is permitted to eat meat on St. Patrick’s Day … Cardinal (Adam) Maida grants his blessing and permission,” says a message sent to the Archdiocese of Detroit’s more than 300 parishes.

In exchange for eating corned beef, Maida suggests Catholics perform personal acts of penance, such as “prayer, fasting and almsgiving.”

The Archdioceses of New York and heavily Irish Boston have also decided to suspend the rule, as has the Diocese of Brooklyn. Overall, at least 29 of the 195 U.S. dioceses have granted exceptions so far, according to an informal tally by Catholic commentator Rocco Palmo, who has tracked the issue on his blog, Whispers in the Loggia, a widely watched source of all things Catholic.

Bishop Carl F. Mengeling of the Diocese of Lansing, Mich., has also decreed it’s OK for parishes, groups and individual Catholics to eat all the meat they want on March 17.

“I appreciate the bishop for not putting the Irish in a place of internal conflict whether to obey the church or our heritage,” said Neil Huiskens, a deacon at St. John the Evangelist Roman Catholic Church in Davison, Mich., and grand marshal of the 25th annual St. Patrick’s Day Festival in Flint, Mich.

Under Catholic rules for Lent – the 40-day period before Easter – Ash Wednesday and Good Friday are days of fasting and abstinence, and every Friday is to be meatless.

While giving a pass on St. Patrick’s Day, Mengeling urged the faithful to avoid meat on another day of the same week.

Many other dioceses, however, are standing firm in sticking to the rules and avoiding meat, even on the Irish’s big day.

“It just hasn’t come up as an issue here,” said James Wharton, spokesman for the Catholic diocese of Sioux City, Iowa. He added that many local parishes hold “fish fries” on Lenten Fridays to offer an alternative to meat. Catholics, he said, are welcome to enjoy their corned beef on the day before or after St. Patrick’s Day.

Corned beef began as a traditional Easter Sunday meal in rural Ireland. The beef was preserved through the winter in a brine solution of salt and sugar so that it could be eaten after the Lenten fast.

This year’s St. Patrick’s Day scuffle isn’t the first fight that’s been waged over Catholicism’s meatless Friday rule. In 2004, Boston baseball fans were irked when the Red Sox opened their season at Fenway Park on a Lenten Friday, forcing them to forgo hot dogs and Italian sausages for the game.

On these meaty controversies, Bill Donahue, president of the New York-based Catholic League, places himself in the beef-eating camp. “These are all man-made rules of the Catholic Church. These aren’t quoted in Scripture,” he said.

St. Patrick, the patron saint of Ireland, is also patron saint of the Archdiocese of New York. Donahue suggested that could be having an influence on New York bishops who decided Donahue and other Irishmen deserve their beef this St. Patrick’s Day.
“The cuisine,” said Donahue, “calls for corned beef – as well as for lots of green beer. That can’t be ignored.”

 

[ron77nyc]

Yes, that can be true within our large Church - and on the smaller “playing field” of one’s local parish - , but that was not what you said earlier; you claimed that people who believe things diametrically opposed to what Christ teaches through His Church can be considered “good Catholics” and this is most definitely not the case. Further, even in hiding and doing your own thing, you cannot hide from God.

I don’t doubt that many Catholic high schools have done a woefully inadequate job in instructing the youth placed in their charge, but can it also be that you weren’t paying much attention? And what Gospel did you later hear? The false gospel that all one has to do is accept Jesus Christ as one’s Savior and one is saved without fear of losing one’s salvation? Is it the false gospel that employs only Scripture and not Sacred Tradition and makes of one’s subjective understanding the final authority (from which, btw, and per the topic at hand, the Infallibility of the Church employed by the Bishop of Rome saves us)?

What does it mean to accept Jesus if one does not also accept all He instructed us to do and does not accept all that that He gave to us in His Church?

Then you have not heard the Holy Father speak, for this is his endless theme both in speaking and in writing. Here but a few examples:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/messages/youth/documents/hf_ben-xvi_mes_20070720_youth_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20080824_en.html

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/angelus/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_ang_20080810_en.html

 

[ron77nyc]

Thank you. I have a lot of respect for you because you know what you are talking about, you are sincere, truthful and understanding and non-defensive. You’re a wise woman.

 

[po18guy]

Hi,
Thanks for that website. I read it and it is also hard to understand. I also read the ewtn website. All these attempts to explain infallibility never get to the point and are written like legal documents that the average person cannot interpret. Can anyone give one or more examples of and infallible teaching? Is everything in the Catholic Catechism an infallible teaching? If not what is and what is not? Why doesn’t anyone have specific examples? Doesn’t the presence of the imprimatur mean that it’s been approved of by the Church? Does that mean the Pope agrees with it? Does that mean it’s an infallible teaching?

Ron, I can understand many of your questions, since I had many of them myself. Some of these concerns can only be answered by the Lord Himself. Would you consider spending time in Christ’s presence at Adoration? Place your petition for enlightenment before Christ and, in due time, you will have your answers. I suggest this since man’s written wisdom does not always suffice for some of us. Some of us need a spiritual answer rather than an intellectual one.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

ron77nyc, Not another bl**dy Irishman! No wonder we have the same difficulties! Perhaps St. Patrick’s intercession before our Lord will help the two of us. We are hard cases.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

.
That’s the thing, we don’t know for sure. The Mormons claim it all was lost after the apostles died. I don’t see how this could happen. Or why God would do that. It seems like he’d be tricking humanity then for 2000 yrs after Jesus came. God doesn’t seem to trick us though. He seems to spell out the gospel message clearly. Anyway, I’ve had to just have faith that the message was true as it is in the Bible, but if what Mormons say is true, that would mean that even those first bishops/early church fathers were deceived/wrong/deceivers in their writings. The Early Church Fathers writing were what has led me to consider the Catholic Church, but then I fear, What if THEY were the deceivers? What if THEY were on some conspiracy/power trip? Then all is lost. Then THEY would be the ones who picked and chose books to be in the Bible that suited THEIR interests or plans and the tares would’ve won over the wheat. In which case, the Mormons would be right! So, how can I be sure the Early Fathers had it right? Then I would assume the authority really was given to the church leaders and would stay that way, even when they did things that seemed anti-christian in my view. I’m going to post another thread asking, "Why were there no more “apostles” appointed after the apostles. Why were they only bishops? " That’s another Mormon argument for why Christians lost authority…because only apostles had it. so stay tuned…

The fatal fallacy of Mormonism is that it’s core has constantly shifted. Just one example: their deity prohibited African descendants from the LDS priesthood until 1978, then suddenly changed by “revelation”. What??? I note that this occurred a short 14 years after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed. There are many such examples of their core beliefs changing. Just browse some of the LDS threads.

Know also that they proclaim the “great apostasy”, of the early Catholic Church, even though they cannot place a single name, date or place on this earth-shaking occurrence. Their bible remains the KJV, which is still basically the bible that was canonized by the “apostate” Catholic church. How on earth can they say that the church fell into “total apostasy” in the post-Apostolic age, yet rely on a version of the bible that was canonized by apostates? They shun apostates, even their own families who leave the LDS. Their beliefs defy their doctrines, and vice versa. They want it both ways.

Sounds like some fresh-faced missionaries have visited you?!? Use caution, a they are allowed to use deception in defense of their faith. It is not considered a sin for them.

Christ’s peace.

 

[mesl4]

The fatal fallacy of Mormonism is that it’s core has constantly shifted. Just one example: their deity prohibited African descendants from the LDS priesthood until 1978, then suddenly changed by “revelation”. What??? I note that this occurred a short 14 years after the Civil Rights Act of 1964 was passed. There are many such examples of their core beliefs changing. Just browse some of the LDS threads.

 

[ron77nyc]

I’m not rebelling against authority. I’m following the apostolic teaching of the Bible which contradicts Church Law.
Collosians 2:20 If you died with Christ to the elemental powers of the world, why do you submit to regulations as if you were still living in the world?
21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”
22 These are all things destined to perish with use; they accord with human precepts and teachings.
23 While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they are of no value against gratification of the flesh.

 

[ron77nyc]

ron77nyc, Not another bl**dy Irishman! No wonder we have the same difficulties! Perhaps St. Patrick’s intercession before our Lord will help the two of us. We are hard cases.

Christ’s peace.

 

[ron77nyc]

I’m not Irish. I’m Italian.
Thanks for you advice about a spiritual answer rather than an intllectual one.

 

[ron77nyc]

And Jesus will say… “Hmmm Funny I checked my book here and it says that you did not killed millions like Hitler, or betrayed me like Judas, but willingly disobeyed the authority of my Church, which I clearly state in scripture is my authority”. Rebellion against the authority of God is a terrible thing… Satan tried that and look what it got him into.

In His love

 

[ron77nyc]

How do you reconcile abstaining from meat with this scripture?

Collosians 2:20 If you died with Christ to the elemental powers of the world, why do you submit to regulations as if you were still living in the world?
21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”
22 These are all things destined to perish with use; they accord with human precepts and teachings.
23 While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they are of no value against gratification of the flesh.

 

[ron77nyc]

They also don’t really rely on the Bible. It’s just one of their scriptures but not as correct as the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenant teachings of the “Prophets.”

“What if they’re right?” They’re so nice and caring and gentle and seem like such a good example of Jesus. They love him and want to please him at least as much as trinitarian believing Christians and have so many good points

Ahhh! Why does it have to be so confusing?

 

[ron77nyc]

po18guy;4130489:

Yes, I know of this. But so has the Catholic church (like the meat eating thing mentioned above, limbo ideas, etc.)

I don’t mean to get off on the LDS tangent, but just to respond these questions I will. I studies Mormonism quite in depthly over the past 6 yrs. They believe the apostasy is because no more “apostles” lived after a certain point and the apostles were the ones who gave the authority. They called new apostles for a while, but they died and only bishops were left and that bishops did not have all the authority like apostles did so the apostasy was based on a loss of authority, rather than a loss of sincerity/knowledge/practice. They also don’t really rely on the Bible. It’s just one of their scriptures but not as correct as the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenant teachings of the “Prophets.”

No, but I’ve had close neighbor friends that are Mormons and they’ve been some of my favorite people. Years ago I had hours and hours of discussion w/the missionaries though. Every once in awhile the thoughts creep back in of, “What if they’re right?” They’re so nice and caring and gentle and seem like such a good example of Jesus. They love him and want to please him at least as much as trinitarian believing Christians and have so many good points…but also so many far stretches. They’re just one more to add to the confusion I guess which is why I either want to go back to the beginning (the Catholic church) or become some New Agey, “all you need is love- connect w/God in your heart- no matter what religion it is” type. Ahhh! Why does it have to be so confusing?

 

[po18guy]

po18guy;4130489:

Yes, I know of this. But so has the Catholic church (like the meat eating thing mentioned above, limbo ideas, etc.)

The rules regarding fasting from meat are within the authority of the church to declare, or to change. They are not dogma, but rather a discipline. Discipline can change - dogma cannot and does not. Many times, the appearance of change occurred as the church was being formed and reflected only man’s developing understanding of God’s revelation.

Compare this to the policies and procedures of many companies and governmental organizations: Policy is set and does not change. Procedures regarding how to implement and observe the policies can and do change. That is completely legitimate. As to the Catholic Church, remember that Jesus bestowed amazing power upon men for the first time in history, telling them that they had the power to bind and loose. Jesus knew what they would do with it, gave it to them still, and promised that the gates of hell would not ever prevail against the church. There are no more comforting words regarding church authority in scripture.

As to LDS, their concept of God has indeed changed, by Joseph Smith’s sole declaration. Yes, the vast majority of them are nice, caring people. But, their theology changes and there is not one shred of earthly evidence for anything that they claim from the BOM. You are called to lead them to true Christianity, actually.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

How do you reconcile abstaining from meat with this scripture?

Collosians 2:20 If you died with Christ to the elemental powers of the world, why do you submit to regulations as if you were still living in the world?
21 “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”
22 These are all things destined to perish with use; they accord with human precepts and teachings.
23 While they have a semblance of wisdom in rigor of devotion and self-abasement (and) severity to the body, they are of no value against gratification of the flesh.

Was not Paul here speaking of those who accepted Christ, but remained obedient also to secular and/or OT regulation?

Also, the abstention from meat is out of love and respect for the sacrifice of Christ, made on Good Friday. Not sure I’m understanding your point here…

 

[po18guy]

I’m not Irish. I’m Italian.
Thanks for you advice about a spiritual answer rather than an intllectual one.

Here, I thought it was an Irish thing! The Lord made us mind, body and spirit. When the mind will not or cannot grasp revelation, the spirit becomes the chosen path.

As with conversion to Christ, the Holy Spirit accomplishes all such grace. He sometimes uses us, but the glory is His. As to fasting, recall also that Christ said:

Matthew 9:15 Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom mourn while he is with them? The time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; then they will fast.

Mark 2:19 Jesus answered, "How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them.

Mark 2:20 But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.

Luke 5:34 Jesus answered, "Can you make the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them?

Luke 5:35 But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them; in those days they will fast."

Christ’s peace.