Infallibility: Will someone evaluate this article for me?

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po18guy said:
Was not Paul here speaking of those who accepted Christ, but remained obedient also to secular and/or OT regulation?

Also, the abstention from meat is out of love and respect for the sacrifice of Christ, made on Good Friday. Not sure I’m understanding your point here…
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My point is I don’t see the importance of abstaining from meat and why such a big issue is made of it. I believe Vito Corleone ( I know he’s not a real person but you know what I mean) ate fish on Friday as did all people in Catholic countries and Catholic neighborhoods and it didn’t make them any better. The people I work with just belly up to the bar with a fish sandwich instead of a cheeseburger and nothing else changes but they feel better because they supposedly did something for God.
 
mesl4 said:
po18guy;4130489:
Yes, I know of this. But so has the Catholic church (like the meat eating thing mentioned above, limbo ideas, etc.)

I don’t mean to get off on the LDS tangent, but just to respond these questions I will. I studies Mormonism quite in depthly over the past 6 yrs. They believe the apostasy is because no more “apostles” lived after a certain point and the apostles were the ones who gave the authority. They called new apostles for a while, but they died and only bishops were left and that bishops did not have all the authority like apostles did so the apostasy was based on a loss of authority, rather than a loss of sincerity/knowledge/practice. They also don’t really rely on the Bible. It’s just one of their scriptures but not as correct as the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenant teachings of the “Prophets.”

No, but I’ve had close neighbor friends that are Mormons and they’ve been some of my favorite people. Years ago I had hours and hours of discussion w/the missionaries though. Every once in awhile the thoughts creep back in of, “What if they’re right?” They’re so nice and caring and gentle and seem like such a good example of Jesus. They love him and want to please him at least as much as trinitarian believing Christians and have so many good points…but also so many far stretches. They’re just one more to add to the confusion I guess which is why I either want to go back to the beginning (the Catholic church) or become some New Agey, “all you need is love- connect w/God in your heart- no matter what religion it is” type. Ahhh! Why does it have to be so confusing?:eek: :mad: :confused: 🤷
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ron77nyc said:
My point is I don’t see the importance of abstaining from meat and why such a big issue is made of it. I believe Vito Corleone ( I know he’s not a real person but you know what I mean) ate fish on Friday as did all people in Catholic countries and Catholic neighborhoods and it didn’t make them any better. The people I work with just belly up to the bar with a fish sandwich instead of a cheeseburger and nothing else changes but they feel better because they supposedly did something for God.
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Do you have the same problem with traffic citations? A rule made by the Church, for its members, is there for the betterment of those members.

Your examples clearly show why Christ was so hard on the Pharisees. They were going through the motions, but their heart was not in it. He called them hypocrits and no better than “white-washed tombs.”
 
No. I just have a problem with following rules just for the sake of following rules. If you see a sign that says 'No Parking in Driveway" and there is no driveway you would have to question why it is there.
 
ron77nyc said:
No. I just have a problem with following rules just for the sake of following rules. If you see a sign that says 'No Parking in Driveway" and there is no driveway you would have to question why it is there.
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So how is this equivalent with the fasting requirements?
 
Thanks David. I read it quickly. I will go back and read it again.
 
ron77nyc said:
Peter was teaching people that they had to be circumcised. He was straying from the original gospel teaching and putting his own spin on it. He was adding his own message to the original message. Is that a doctrinal error?
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No, Peter was not teaching that people shold be circumcised. Peter was refusing to eat with Gentiles when the Judaizers from Jerusalem were in town. Moreover, Paul had Timothy circumcised so as not to cause scandal among the Jews who “knew that his father was Greek.”
As far as abstaining from meat being a discipline; that was not the impression I or my parents or grandparents ever got from the church. We were taught it was a mortal sin and the consequence of eating meat on a Friday was loss of eternal life.
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Disobedience to the legitimate discipline of the Church is still a mortal sin. We are still required to offer some act of penance on Fridays, although the form of that penance is no longer limited to abstaining from meat – although one may still do that…
 
ron77nyc said:
My point is I don’t see the importance of abstaining from meat and why such a big issue is made of it. I believe Vito Corleone ( I know he’s not a real person but you know what I mean) ate fish on Friday as did all people in Catholic countries and Catholic neighborhoods and it didn’t make them any better. The people I work with just belly up to the bar with a fish sandwich instead of a cheeseburger and nothing else changes but they feel better because they supposedly did something for God.
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Sometimes, we can take example from those less faithful brothers of ours. The abstention from meat is simply to honor the sacrifice of Christ’s flesh on Good Friday. His flesh has purchased eternal life for all of us, if we are wiling to follow Him. It follows that the church has established various “procedures” for faithful observers to follow. This is clearly based upon Christ’s own words about the faithful fasting once He was taken away from us. I know some who fast from all food on Fridays, so a fast from red meat is not that outrageous. Fasting is a form of penance, which is always pleasing to the Lord.

As to those who do little more than partake of fish on Friday, the Lord does not lose sight of that small sacrifice. However, He sees everything, including whether they attend mass or not, so we might as well allow them to observe at least that part of their Catholic identity, while we call them to a higher level of faith and observance. The fast is a decision to honor Christ’s sacrifice. It is but one part of our total adoration of Christ. If you sacrifice time to attend the sacrifice of the mass, why not continue in the same vein with other sacrifices of the church? The Catholic Church echoes Christ’s own call to obedience. Thus, we are a more structured faith than others, with the associated rules and regulations. We have a Catechism. Try to find a coherent, comprehensive directional document in any other faith - you won’t.

Do you have a Catechism or the abbreviated Compendium of the Catechism? The fathers of the church are far better at explaining our practices than I. Have a look inside for the reasons behind our faith practices. Many of the paragraphs take some time to absorb, so profound are they.

Between seeking a spiritual answer and browsing the Catechism, I think you will find an acceptable and reasonable explanation of our Catholic disciplines.

Christ’s peace.
 
mesl4 said:
po18guy;4130489:
Yes, I know of this. But so has the Catholic church (like the meat eating thing mentioned above, limbo ideas, etc.)

No, but I’ve had close neighbor friends that are Mormons and they’ve been some of my favorite people. Years ago I had hours and hours of discussion w/the missionaries though. Every once in awhile the thoughts creep back in of, “What if they’re right?” They’re so nice and caring and gentle and seem like such a good example of Jesus. They love him and want to please him at least as much as trinitarian believing Christians and have so many good points…but also so many far stretches. They’re just one more to add to the confusion I guess which is why I either want to go back to the beginning (the Catholic church) or become some New Agey, “all you need is love- connect w/God in your heart- no matter what religion it is” type. Ahhh! Why does it have to be so confusing?:eek: :mad: :confused: 🤷
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For me it comes down to one thing only and that is the Gospel. The Gospel never changes, it is a very clear message.
1 Cor. 15:1-4,Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…"
• Romans 10:9-10, “if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
This is the message that the apostles died for. This is why the early Christians were thrown to the lions. They were not asked about any of the things dicussed in this forum.
This is what St. Paul says about additional revelations:
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8, 9
 
ron77nyc said:
For me it comes down to one thing only and that is the Gospel. The Gospel never changes, it is a very clear message.
1 Cor. 15:1-4,Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…"
• Romans 10:9-10, “if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
This is the message that the apostles died for. This is why the early Christians were thrown to the lions. They were not asked about any of the things dicussed in this forum.
This is what St. Paul says about additional revelations:
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8, 9
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Ron, it must also come down to: Who preserved and canonized the Scriptures and what was their authority to do so? Your approach continues to be too simplistic - as if all the questions regarding Christian doctrine were or could only be raised in the first century A.D…
 
FCEGM said:
Ron, it must also come down to: Who preserved and canonized the Scriptures and what was their authority to do so? Your approach continues to be too simplistic - as if all the questions regarding Christian doctrine were or could only be raised in the first century A.D…
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Hi Frances,
This message was for msl4 with his questions about the Mormons but I haven’t mastered the reply process as you can see by some of my previous posts.
I know I tend to oversimplify but what do you expect?..I’m a guy. I’ve attended many churches both catholic and protestant and I had a jehovah’s witness friend who wouldn’t quit so I had to stop talking to him. I know the Catholic Church decided what books go into the new testament and they are the authority but what I’ve seen is that in many denomonations and different beliefs the gospel never changes. It’s like the engine of a car. You can change the body, add air conditioning, put in a cd player or ride a convertible but without the engine you don’t have transportation. It’s the same with churches. If they don’t preach the gospel they are going nowhere. I’ve seen among protestants (not all) that with the bible only they do very well. When there is a desire to know God He gives the Holy Spirit. There are many Protestant missionaries with real experiences of God’s intervention in their life. Although the Catholic Church has been present since the beginning of the New Testament it does not hold a monopoly on God and cannot control Him. He seems to have a mind of His own.
 
ron77nyc said:
For me it comes down to one thing only and that is the Gospel. The Gospel never changes, it is a very clear message.
1 Cor. 15:1-4,Now I make known to you brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures…"
• Romans 10:9-10, “if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; 10 for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.”
This is the message that the apostles died for. This is why the early Christians were thrown to the lions. They were not asked about any of the things dicussed in this forum.
This is what St. Paul says about additional revelations:
“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.” Galatians 1:8, 9
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This is the message that Christ died for, and is absolutely the Catholic Gospel. The way you present it, as a simple statement that leaves the door wide open as to liturgy, is much simplified, sounding almost Evangelical. But, remember that Christ also admonished us to keep His commands. That amounts to much more than a simple statement of belief.

Read the early church fathers as to their observances in the first years of the church. You will be amazed that it had a structure much like that we have today in the Catholic Church but, of course, much smaller, since they were just beginning. Beware of the much shallower, simplified theology that is making all the rounds today. It is based on erroneous private interpretation of scripture, and again, also based on the error of sola scriptura.

Christ’s peace.
 
ron77nyc said:
Hi Frances,
This message was for msl4 with his questions about the Mormons but I haven’t mastered the reply process as you can see by some of my previous posts.
I know I tend to oversimplify but what do you expect?..I’m a guy. I’ve attended many churches both catholic and protestant and I had a jehovah’s witness friend who wouldn’t quit so I had to stop talking to him. I know the Catholic Church decided what books go into the new testament and they are the authority but what I’ve seen is that in many denomonations and different beliefs the gospel never changes. It’s like the engine of a car. You can change the body, add air conditioning, put in a cd player or ride a convertible but without the engine you don’t have transportation. It’s the same with churches. If they don’t preach the gospel they are going nowhere. I’ve seen among protestants (not all) that with the bible only they do very well. When there is a desire to know God He gives the Holy Spirit. There are many Protestant missionaries with real experiences of God’s intervention in their life. Although the Catholic Church has been present since the beginning of the New Testament it does not hold a monopoly on God and cannot control Him. He seems to have a mind of His own.
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ron77nyc said:
My point is I don’t see the importance of abstaining from meat and why such a big issue is made of it. I believe Vito Corleone ( I know he’s not a real person but you know what I mean) ate fish on Friday as did all people in Catholic countries and Catholic neighborhoods and it didn’t make them any better. The people I work with just belly up to the bar with a fish sandwich instead of a cheeseburger and nothing else changes but they feel better because they supposedly did something for God.
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Oh, for Love of God! 😃

Seriously though, that is what abstinence is about.

Abstinence on Fridays has been observed since the earliest times, as a remembrance of the day that Christ died on the Cross.

You don’t really know what the people you work with are thinking or observing in their hearts. It isn’t like we belly up to some fish at dinner and proclaim our piety and spring to our feet with instantaneous homilies.:cool:

I mean, what are you expecting a Catholic to actually do at mealtimes?
 
RebeccaJ said:
Oh, for Love of God! 😃

Seriously though, that is what abstinence is about.

Abstinence on Fridays has been observed since the earliest times, as a remembrance of the day that Christ died on the Cross.

You don’t really know what the people you work with are thinking or observing in their hearts. It isn’t like we belly up to some fish at dinner and proclaim our piety and spring to our feet with instantaneous homilies.:cool:

I mean, what are you expecting a Catholic to actually do at mealtimes?
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My comments are directed more at the teaching and understanding of the Catholic faith particularly with people in my age group. I attended Catholic high school in the 1960’s. I don’t know what they teach now. I know the traditions of the Church and it’s just odd to watch people put such a big emphasis on abstaining from meat on holy days and be so obedient with that teaching but on the same day they will use the Lord’s name in vain and do and say other things that I wouldn’t want to mention here.
 
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