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Scott_Waddell
Guest
This is called the infallibilty regress argument and yes, it cuts both ways. Check out this CA article: Stop It! Apologetic Bad Habits and Their Remedies
Scott
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VociMike
Guest
The Church and Scripture are never in opposition. If they appear so it is because of a lack of understanding on your part. (“lack of understanding” is not meant to be a criticism, just a statement of fact).
Scripture is inerrant (without error).
The Church teaches infallibly (preserved from error) in teaching doctrine.
Recognize also that you only believe the Bible because you (or your forerunners) believed the Church when it discerned which writings were scripture. If you challenge this, then you must explain how you know the bible is the written word of God, without reference to the authority of the Church.
Scripture is inerrant (without error).
The Church teaches infallibly (preserved from error) in teaching doctrine.
Recognize also that you only believe the Bible because you (or your forerunners) believed the Church when it discerned which writings were scripture. If you challenge this, then you must explain how you know the bible is the written word of God, without reference to the authority of the Church.
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Pug
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God.
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big_guy144
Guest
This is a long response, so bear with me:
You gave some great verses. I absolutely agree, faith without works is dead. James said, “If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, and one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone,” James 2:15-17. James also said, “Thou believest that there is one God; thou does well: the devils also believe, and tremble,” James 2:19.
And Jesus did give the parable of the Good Samaritan. He also said, “Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you…” Luke 6:27-28. Those are all good works.
But if it is by works that we are saved, then Jesus Christ came in vain. Man is ultimately a sinner, “and without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins” (Hebrews 9:22). The reason we are sinners is because we are all guilty of the law in the site of God, we need a savior, “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all,” James 2:10.
“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen,” Hebrews 11:1. Hebrews 11 is a great chapter on faith, the whole chapter explains what faith is. So the question is not whether or not we are saved by faith, but the question is are we saved by works? Our works establish our faith. Hebrews 11 explains that. So, our answer is in Ephesians chapter 2:8-9, “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: by whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God,” Romans 5:1.
My stance is this, the Bible is infallible, there is no authority above it. The Church may claim to be hand in hand with the Bible, but I assure you, they do contradict each other. For example, should we call any man Father? Well, Jesus Christ was very clear, he said, “And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven,” Matthew 23:9. And the followers of Christ, ex: priests, bishops, popes…who are they likened to? The disciples who were your common day fishermen, and even Christ himself was a carpenter, and then became homeless when he started his ministry? Or the scribes and Pharissees, who were the keepers of the law, and were dressed in fine rainment, and who love the “greetings in the market places?”
By the way, why am I categorized as a Protestant? I read the Bible, and I follow no man except Jesus Christ, the Word of God. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give them eternal life; and they shall never perish…” John 10:27. I was in fact part of a Catholic based denomination (Charismatic Episcopalian), and I learned the truth about the Word of God and tradition, 2 different things. I then no longer affliated my beliefs with that Church.
If eternal life is what you desire, it is a free gift of God. “For the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance,” 2 Peter 3:9. For more info, visit this link: geocities.com/big_guy144/eternallife.html?1110731243125
“For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus CHrist our Lord.” Romans 6:23
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Scott_Waddell
Guest
Well, there is your problem, the big “I”.
I assure you? The Church assures me that there is no contradiction. Who to believe? Christ’s Church preserved for 2000 years that can defend every jot and tittle of its teaching with Scripture, patristics, history and common sense; or random internet dweeb implicitly claiming the title of Uberpope wrenching snippets of Scripture out of context and holding them up as equal to the whole? hmmmm.
Scott
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leo123
Guest
Uhm, that’s a little ironic, how do Protestants claim to be ‘born again’, by baptisim; and what’s baptism, a sacrament.
Therefore, even using protestant reasoning, we can conclude that God takes a ‘hands on’ approach by saving us through sacraments.
Not to help you out too much but if you wanted to challenge Catholicism decently you should have been more specific.
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leo123
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After reading threads like this you feel like not even replying to what our detractors have to say, at most point them to a link which will solve their incredulity.
You find few Catholics who spend their time or consider an important part of their faith to be based on disporving others. Trust me us Catholics have enough richness of faith and teachings to spend our time discussing that alone and don’t feel the need to go onto protestant sites and insult users
You find few Catholics who spend their time or consider an important part of their faith to be based on disporving others. Trust me us Catholics have enough richness of faith and teachings to spend our time discussing that alone and don’t feel the need to go onto protestant sites and insult users
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Michael_C
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Just to clarify, do you have to actually see a word in the bible to believe it?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
If so, he must not believe in the “trinity”. . .that word is certainly NOT in the Bible. . .
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RyanL
Guest
Tantum ergo:
Along those lines, I did do a word search for “faith alone”. Any guesses what I came up with?
I don’t recall reading about “Imputed Righteousness” anywhere…is there a verse our separated brothers can show to prove that it is explicitly mentioned?
Along those lines, I did do a word search for “faith alone”. Any guesses what I came up with?
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Genesis315
Guest
We are saved by grace.
The authority established by Christ assures me otherwise. The church is the pillar and foundation of truth remember. This site has a good tract about that father business.We hear that all the time around these parts.
catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
(sorry to just give you links, but they do a better job than I can)
Any contradiction that protestants see is just a result of their personal interpretation.
Protestant means not Catholic or Orthodox
I agree. But if I see a bum on the side of the street and I say “Come with me down the street to my restaurant, I have a free meal waiting for you,” the gift is free. But the bum still has to get up and walk over there. I’ll even hold his hand and help him over there. But if he let’s go of my hand and lies down, he’s not going to get the free meal. He may even totally trust me that I have paid for his meal, have faith that I will give him a good meal so to speak, but if he doesn’t walk with me all the way, he won’t get it.
Is that a good analogy?
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Pug
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The way you state this makes me wonder if you are denying that God is the authority above/behind the bible. I would not trust what I read in the bible if it were not that God inspired it. He is the guarantee of it being trustworthy.
I agree with the other poster, the link given about the father issue is good.
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adstrinity
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Genesis315 said:
OOOOH!!!
I like it.
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trailblazer
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Thanks to the Church we have the Sacred Tradition of written Scripture. It is from tradition scripture came to us. The Church holds this tradition sacred, a cornerstone, and does nothing that contradicts it. Through the Church we best understand Scripture. It is unfortunate that our Protestant brethern selected the Hebrew Bible which was produced well after the death of Christ and at a time when Christians were kicked out of synagogs. The Catholic Church has use the Septuigent, which was put together by henenistic Hebrew scholars, and was in use at the time of Christ. The Hebrew version did not include several OT books because they said they could not find original Hebrew writings. Since that time, Hebrew writings have been discovered for many of these books.
To say that Catholics ignore the Bible is absolutely wrong!
To say that Catholics ignore the Bible is absolutely wrong!
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Ann_Cheryl
Guest
It amazes me that this is still being used. This answers that charge.
catholic.com/library/Call_No_Man_Father.asp
You say Jesus says clearly well Jesus said clearly that "Most asssuredly, …unless one is born of WATER and the Spirt, he cannot enter the kningdom of heaven.
You have buckshoted this thread. You have thrown out so much. I think you think there is no answer. You are wrong You ask But is purgatory even in the Bible?
The simple answer is yes.
1 Timothy chapter 3
I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church does not come from the bible but the bible from the Church. The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth not the bible.
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All4lifetoo
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Big_Guy144,
You ask some good questions, Questions that many have asked before. The answere are available. I recommend that you read : hometown.aol.com/all4lifetoo/Graham/preface.html
Graham’s book will answer many of your questions.
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scylla
Guest
If you say you don’t follow a Church, you follow only the Bible because you don’t want to follow man, then you are following man.
A man came up with the idea to base your faith on the Bible alone. So the idea of just the Bible and me is based upon a man-made doctrine.
So who defined the Christian interpretation of the Trinity?
What Church do I go to if I have a problem with someone and need to resolve it. There needs to be an authority to resolve my issues, if it is any body of believers then how do I know they are right if they have a different opinion than the body of believers down the street?
Jesus founded a Church, he stated the Gates of Hell wouldn’t prevail against it. Trying to base my beliefs on the Bible alone, instead of trusting Jesus is pretty much the same as calling Jesus a liar, and unable to fulfill his desires.
So who gives someone the authority to start a church? Who gave Martin Luther, John Smith, Charles Taze Russell or Chuck Smith, or if you don’t follow them and say it is just you and the Bible who gave you authority to make your own Church?
I believe in Jesus in his ability to fulfill his Word, to make a Church, that the Gates of Hell wont prevail against, no matter how many sinners are in it, I can read history, use logic, and common sense and see that the Church compiled the Canon of the Bible, preserved it and has prevailed. If I don’t trust Jesus’s Church how could I trust the Bible?
A man came up with the idea to base your faith on the Bible alone. So the idea of just the Bible and me is based upon a man-made doctrine.
So who defined the Christian interpretation of the Trinity?
What Church do I go to if I have a problem with someone and need to resolve it. There needs to be an authority to resolve my issues, if it is any body of believers then how do I know they are right if they have a different opinion than the body of believers down the street?
Jesus founded a Church, he stated the Gates of Hell wouldn’t prevail against it. Trying to base my beliefs on the Bible alone, instead of trusting Jesus is pretty much the same as calling Jesus a liar, and unable to fulfill his desires.
So who gives someone the authority to start a church? Who gave Martin Luther, John Smith, Charles Taze Russell or Chuck Smith, or if you don’t follow them and say it is just you and the Bible who gave you authority to make your own Church?
I believe in Jesus in his ability to fulfill his Word, to make a Church, that the Gates of Hell wont prevail against, no matter how many sinners are in it, I can read history, use logic, and common sense and see that the Church compiled the Canon of the Bible, preserved it and has prevailed. If I don’t trust Jesus’s Church how could I trust the Bible?
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Athanasiy
Guest
What You call the Infallible Word is just one of the many Documents of the Catholic Church.
What You call the Infallible Word is just the part of the Tradition of the Catholic Church.
Before and during the Reformation periods, there were much more greater Catholic Scholars than Martin Luther.
Some of those Scripture Scholars were the Abbots, who had also their own opinions, ; but they never permit themselves to rebel against the Church.
Because they knew that the Theological Superiority is not more important than the Church Unity.
Because they could not imagine the Scripture outside of the Catholic Church.The Catholic Church was its Authority.
The Infallible Word was the Church Book, and couldn’t be nothing else.
I think the Infallible Word can not be put in practice, outside of the Church.
What You call the Infallible Word is just the part of the Tradition of the Catholic Church.
Before and during the Reformation periods, there were much more greater Catholic Scholars than Martin Luther.
Some of those Scripture Scholars were the Abbots, who had also their own opinions, ; but they never permit themselves to rebel against the Church.
Because they knew that the Theological Superiority is not more important than the Church Unity.
Because they could not imagine the Scripture outside of the Catholic Church.The Catholic Church was its Authority.
The Infallible Word was the Church Book, and couldn’t be nothing else.
I think the Infallible Word can not be put in practice, outside of the Church.
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jimmy85
Guest
The bible didnt fall from the sky.
The bible was written becasue the eyewitness that saw Jesus were dying and they wrote the NT in order to keep “the tradition” and their teachigns alive. another reason why they wrote it was to keep united the primitive churches under one tradition.
The bible was written becasue the eyewitness that saw Jesus were dying and they wrote the NT in order to keep “the tradition” and their teachigns alive. another reason why they wrote it was to keep united the primitive churches under one tradition.
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lak611
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There also were all kinds of false writings about Jesus. It was the Church that read through all the accounts of Jesus and determined which ones were the true Gospels and which were heretical. The Church put together the Bible.
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