Infant Baptism - Laying out the facts

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We do get some hint by in Acts16:29-33. Where Paul and Silas tell the jailer: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” Notice they told the jailer that his confession of faith in the Lord Jesus would save him AND his household. How could that be true if in order to be baptized every person must make there OWN profession of faith as you are saying is the only truth of the bible? What versus in the Bible EVER says the jailers family ever made a statement of faith? Here is a hint, you WILL NOT FIND ONE. Because it doesn’t exist. Because it was NOT needed. Acts 16:31 makes it clear that his confession of faith saved both him AND his whole family.
ckutac…you are pretty strong in your statement, yet you failed to read the following two verses. Shows you are debating based on emotion rather than scripture and cherry picking scipture. Again, they believed first and were baptized second. From the comment you made toward me earlier, this would mean you are lying! .:cool:

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the message of the Lord to him along with everyone in his house. 33 He took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds. Right away he and all his family were baptized. 34 He brought them into his house, set a meal before them, and rejoiced because he had believed God with his entire household.
 
Here’s the reality.

Children growing up in Evangelical households are taught they are saved by Accepting Jesus. Baptism is a non-issue. I know because I have 7 siblings that are all Evangelical. I have dozens of nephews and nieces, and NONE of them are EVER baptized.

Just this past summer one nephew married an Eastern Orthodox Christian and was baptized an Orthodox Christian. This caused my sister (his mother) some amusement, or maybe consternation. It’s hard to say. Her other two children (both adults) are not baptized either. The children just DON’T repent since they are ALREADY saved, so they NEVER get baptized.

Just an example of the EVIL that is done by not believing in Sacramental Baptism and infant baptism in particular.

BTW, one unbaptized nephew is now an Evangelical minister himself! The whole lot of them consider themselves saved, baptized or not.

Don’t forget, even if they commit a “big sin” in not getting baptized, they are STILL SAVED. “Once saved always saved.”

So your comments are empty and meaningless. 😦
Ambrose, I believe it was you who stated that evangelicals are hardly qualified to speak on infant baptism. If it was not you, my apologies.

But you are way off base on your view of evangelicals and baptism. From your statements you act as if evangelicals feel baptism is just some ritual we do when we find the time to get around to it. And, if we never get baptized…well no biggie…we are still saved.

Do we believe in OSAS…yes…because it is scriptural. There is no denying it. Though, while we believe OSAS, this does not correlate to baptism being a “non-issue.” It saddens me to see that your siblings do not understand the importance of baptism. But they in no represent the norm for evangelicals and baptism…especially for Southern Baptist where the importance of baptism is preached according to scripture.
 
I don’t know WHAT they believe. I just know WHAT THEY DO. 😦
They are your siblings, is there a way you can ask them and get back to me? I know that Evangelicals teach that after repentance comes Baptism.

Ask them, “Did Jesus teach that as a Christian you should get Baptized” if yes ask why they’re not doing what Christ and His Disciples commanded?

By their own Theology (if they really are Evangelical) they must know that they are sinning by disobeying Christ. Just like they would be sinning by stealing.
 
They are your siblings, is there a way you can ask them and get back to me? I know that Evangelicals teach that after repentance comes Baptism.

Ask them, “Did Jesus teach that as a Christian you should get Baptized” if yes ask why they’re not doing what Christ and His Disciples commanded?

By their own Theology (if they really are Evangelical) they must know that they are sinning by disobeying Christ. Just like they would be sinning by stealing.
dronald…you are correct. Every evangelical who has accepted Christ as their Savior should be baptized as Christ commanded.
 
ckutac…you are pretty strong in your statement, yet you failed to read the following two verses. Shows you are debating based on emotion rather than scripture and cherry picking scipture. Again, they believed first and were baptized second. From the comment you made toward me earlier, this would mean you are lying! .:cool:

31 So they said, “Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” 32 Then they spoke the message of the Lord to him along with everyone in his house. 33 He took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds. Right away he and all his family were baptized. 34 He brought them into his house, set a meal before them, and rejoiced because he had believed God with his entire household.
I posted the whole thing before. Once again, show where it shows that the rest of his family ever had to say that they believed.

Noticed the steps:
The Jailer Believed
The Jailer AND his whole family where saved
They spoke the message of the lord to him and everyone in the house
they baptized the whole family
He brought them into his house and had a meal and celebrated with his whole house hold because he believed in God.

The version that you quoted the New King James Version does imply that MAYBE somewhere in the process his entire household believed also, although it never states when they had to believe. But, several other translations never even mention or hint that the rest of the family ever “believed”, here are a few.

Acts 16:34
English Standard Version: - Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

New Revised Standard Version - He brought them up into the house and set food before them; and he and his entire household rejoiced that he had become a believer in God.
 
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.

34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

Are you saying an infant rejoiced?
Certainly possible. Have you never noticed that infants can get excited as well?

And even if not an infant in the family, I have certainly seen 2 and 3 year olds rejoice and get excited well before they are anywhere NEAR any “age of reason”.
 
I posted the whole thing before. Once again, show where it shows that the rest of his family ever had to say that they believed.

Noticed the steps:
The Jailer Believed
The Jailer AND his whole family where saved
They spoke the message of the lord to him and everyone in the house
they baptized the whole family
He brought them into his house and had a meal and celebrated with his whole house hold because he believed in God.

The version that you quoted the New King James Version does imply that MAYBE somewhere in the process his entire household believed also, although it never states when they had to believe. But, several other translations never even mention or hint that the rest of the family ever “believed”, here are a few.

Acts 16:34
English Standard Version: - Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

New Revised Standard Version - He brought them up into the house and set food before them; and he and his entire household rejoiced that he had become a believer in God.
ckutac…why are you leaving out verse 32?

ESV: 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.

NRSV: 32 They spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 At the same hour of the night he took them and washed their wounds; then he and his entire family were baptized without delay.

There is no implying here. Look at verse 32. They heard the word of the Lord. If they rejected what they had been told and not believed they would not have been baptized.
 
Certainly possible. Have you never noticed that infants can get excited as well?

And even if not an infant in the family, I have certainly seen 2 and 3 year olds rejoice and get excited well before they are anywhere NEAR any “age of reason”.
But certainly beyond reason of rejoicing because his father had believed in God. A baby can’t comprehend that, nor can a three year old; not in this context.
 
I wish you were right. But, I know for a fact that Evangelicals believe that you must only “Accept Jesus as your Lord and Master” to be saved. Baptism is just a nice ritual confirming your acceptance, and is not necessary to be saved. That is why they don’t believe in infant baptism (it’s impossible for an infant to “Accept Jesus as his Lord and Master,” and because it isn’t even necessary in first place.)

Catholics, and most mainstream Christians believe in Sacramental Baptism. It is necessary for salvation, and skipping it is NOT an option.
I asked this before, but will ask again. Did Christ lie when he said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise?” Was the thief baptized? Did the thief go to heaven? Did he first go to purgatory?

Can you not see the many contradictions. In order to answer my question about the thief you will tell me “baptism by desire,” which is completely unsupported.

By saying baptism is required for salvation you are ignoring/contradicting what is stated about salvation in the majority of the new testament.
 
33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.

34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

Are you saying an infant rejoiced?
An UNBORN baby can rejoice:

Lu 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
 
The fact is that infant baptism did not become a part of the Catholic church until the fourth century. And if you study early church history you will know that there was much disagreement within the church about infant baptism at this time all the way up to the Reformation.
I dare you to even attempt to find a single quote for an early Church Father disagreeing with infant baptism.

You said that infant baptism didn’t become a part of the Catholic Church until the fourth century. Here is a writing from 215, that specifically says to baptize infants.
Hippolytus - The Apostolic Tradition - “Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them”

And Origen had two in 248:
Homilies on Leviticus - “Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous”

Commentaries on Romans - “The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit”

Also Cyprian of Carthage in 253 wrote:
Letters - “As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born”

Letters - “If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another”

I may not be the smartest guy in the world, but last I was taught 215, 248, and 253 are all BEFORE the 4th century.

There was ZERO debate if it was OK to baptize an infant until the Anabaptist broke off the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century. The ONLY debate was if you even had to wait till the 8th day like they had to with circumcision in the Old Testament.
 
I asked this before, but will ask again. Did Christ lie when he said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise?” Was the thief baptized? Did the thief go to heaven? Did he first go to purgatory?

Can you not see the many contradictions. In order to answer my question about the thief you will tell me “baptism by desire,” which is completely unsupported.

By saying baptism is required for salvation you are ignoring/contradicting what is stated about salvation in the majority of the new testament.
“Baptism of desire” reminds me of what we believe anyways. He would have been Baptized had he been able to, but obviously circumstances prevented him, but that didn’t stop Jesus from promising him Salvation.

Why are infants any different (or the ones who die in childbirth)? Had the circumstances changed and the baby grew up and had a chance to be Baptized then chose Baptism after repentance then such would have happened. Similar to the thief on the cross.
 
An UNBORN baby can rejoice:

Lu 1:41 And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit
So, it’s likely something similar happened in this household even though we’re given absolutely no reason to believe so?
 
I asked this before, but will ask again. Did Christ lie when he said to the thief on the cross, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise?” Was the thief baptized? Did the thief go to heaven? Did he first go to purgatory?

Can you not see the many contradictions. In order to answer my question about the thief you will tell me “baptism by desire,” which is completely unsupported.

By saying baptism is required for salvation you are ignoring/contradicting what is stated about salvation in the majority of the new testament.
There is the difference you try and decide what you feel that the majority of the New Testament says. And that what is not directly supported by the majority of the New Testament “in your opinion” has to be explained away.

Catholics say that you are to follow exactly EVERYTHING that is stated in the New Testament.

Also remember, it was the Catholic Church that gave you the New Testament to follow. We where the ones that set what books should be in the New Testament.
 
“Baptism of desire” reminds me of what we believe anyways. He would have been Baptized had he been able to, but obviously circumstances prevented him, but that didn’t stop Jesus from promising him Salvation.

Why are infants any different (or the ones who die in childbirth)? Had the circumstances changed and the baby grew up and had a chance to be Baptized then chose Baptism after repentance then such would have happened. Similar to the thief on the cross.
Perhaps true, but then it’s the parents who are not allowing them baptism.

Mt 19:14 but Jesus said, “Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”
 
I dare you to even attempt to find a single quote for an early Church Father disagreeing with infant baptism.

You said that infant baptism didn’t become a part of the Catholic Church until the fourth century. Here is a writing from 215, that specifically says to baptize infants.
I’m amuzed that non-Catholics who have swallowed the anti-Catholic rhetoric can make such obviously false statements and not see that they’ve been fed a line. I see it often. 😦
 
So, it’s likely something similar happened in this household even though we’re given absolutely no reason to believe so?
Just sayin’ that your stated objection is no reason NOT to think so.
 
“Baptism of desire” reminds me of what we believe anyways. He would have been Baptized had he been able to, but obviously circumstances prevented him, but that didn’t stop Jesus from promising him Salvation.

Why are infants any different (or the ones who die in childbirth)? Had the circumstances changed and the baby grew up and had a chance to be Baptized then chose Baptism after repentance then such would have happened. Similar to the thief on the cross.
The reason that the Catholic Church teaches that unbaptized Children who are not baptized by no fault of there own will go to heaven.

But, that does not change two facts:
#1.) Jesus said that in order to enter the kingdom of heaven you must be born of the Water AND the Spirit. Notice, Water FIRST Spirit Second. Baptism is what allows the Holy Spirit to enter you.

#2.) While there are several mentions of entire households being baptized, it never mentions with absolute certainty wether infants where part of the households or not, or if there where kids who where not infants, but not of “the age of reason”. But, there is universal consent from the early Church Fathers that they received the the Apostles themselves that infants where to be baptized.
 
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