Infant Baptism

[R_C]

I cannot understand why people try to hold other people accountable for decisions they clearly didn’t make and to something to which they did not give their consent.

But the child has no choice, nor understanding. One cannot make such an incredibly important commitment if the don’t know what’s happening

This is rather interesting: a Catholic user and a non-Catholic user both sharing in the same fundamental doubt: the decision or consent of the child.

The issue that I see is that both are missing the point of baptism. This Sacrament is not the fullness of the Christian Initiation (which requires the child to grow up, study the Catechism, receive the First Communion and the Confirmation, at the “age of reason”, that is, once he has choice, understanding, and gives full consent).

Baptism is something that the Church believes indispensable for the salvation: that is, something without which someone would not achieve eternal life. Of course, the Church believes that salvation is accessible to non-Christian through mysterious ways since “God is not tied to His Sacraments”, nevertheless the ordinary way is Baptism.

This is one of the strongest points supported by the Scriptures:

Amen, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Furthermore, it was the last commandment that Christ gave to the first Christian community before the Ascension:

And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: “All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”.

Now you can see that the Church considers Baptism something that the child needs. It is not forcing the child to become Christian or Catholic - that’s a choice he’ll have to make, as many of us can witness by personal experience.

Let me ask you something: when you bring your baby to receive vaccinations, would you argue that it is absurd, that the child is unaware of what is going on? Hopefully you’ll acknowledge that the parents are right in giving the baby what he needs in order to diminish the risk of death. It is a gift of life that the parents are giving him or her. Well, the same applies to Baptism, which is a Sacrament of Life.

 

[MarcoPolo]

But the child has no choice, nor understanding. One cannot make such an incredibly important commitment if the don’t know what’s happening, nor can someone make it for you. I was baptized long years before my oldest memories, and it had no meaning to me because I hadn’t chosen nor do I remember.

Did your parents make any decisions on your behalf when you were an infant that were incredibly important? I don’t understand the “problem”.

 

[DCNBILL]

I had no decision or choice to be born into this cold cruel world. Thank God someone had the right mind to have me joined to The Body of Christ, through Baptism, as an infant so that I would have the graces to grow and develop within The Church which is destine to bring the world back to God!

 

[Hunter24]

In Luke 5:18-26, the paralytic’s friends lowered the man through the ceiling on his mat. Jesus saw the faith of the man’s friends, and told him “Your sins are forgiven” There is not a hint that the man himself had any faith - only his friends. It is this biblical principle that also applies to parents having their children baptized.

Nor does it say that he didnt. What Jesus said was one of the most blasphemous things a Jew could say, so if this man had his friends take him to Jesus he probably beleaved, and even then he was a consenting, self aware adult.

 

[Hunter24]

Did your parents make any decisions on your behalf when you were an infant that were incredibly important? I don’t understand the “problem”.

Those important decisions which had to be made yes, but this is an initiation, not simply a protective blessing. Should parents register their child to a political party when they are an infant? There’s no telling what that child’s philosophy will be, and they may very well be something different. It’s one thing to present a infant to god and ask for pleadings and protection (we do that), it’s another to initiate a infant. But it’s your religion so you go right on doing what you want. I just know I don’t consider myself baptized even though I infact was as a baby. If noone had told me I would have never known.

 

[DCNBILL]

Nor does it say that he didnt. What Jesus said was one of the most blasphemous things a Jew could say, so if this man had his friends take him to Jesus he probably beleaved, and even then he was a consenting, self aware adult.

Unless He was actually God.

 

[Corso]

I have a hard time with this, forgive me as this may go all over the place. I am studying what I can and I have a lot of questions, alot of infant baptism questions, my catholic roots , and a slew of others that I will be posting in various topics, my questions are not attacks on the catholic religion, they are MY questions on catholic traditions and beliefs, that are coming to me through my studies and search for the truth.

I was baptized as a baby in a catholic church, and received the sacraments throughout catholic school, hence registered into the catholic church.

Alot of my questions come to the early church, the start of the catholic church, etc. etc.

One thing that just pops in my head about infant baptism is how do we grow our church? what is the best way to gain membership? These questions lead me to infant baptism and the early sacraments, communion and confirmation. where you don’t really understand the seriousness of what you are doing, I should say atleast " I "didn’t.

As a child, understanding the true seriousness of receiving the Body of Christ, repenting of my sins with Godly sorrow? at 7 years old? to be honest It is something I did because it’s what you were taught at school and part of the catholic school process.

All accounts I have found in the bible state an immersion when being baptized, “enough water” when I was baptized I believe they sprinkled some water on my head as that seems to be the tradition, It really makes me question alot of things that are done. In researching I found statements in the catchechism, that once you are baptized it seals a few things and lastly " to the service of the Church".
This goes to my membership thought, if it is something to never be done again, and you are sealed to service the church, which I can only assume since it is the catechism that they are talking about the catholic church, wouldn’t this be a way of keeping church membership? Bringing you into the church as an infant and being sealed into it.

 

[Hunter24]

Unless He was actually God.

Touché but my point is alot of people would have seen him as a hieratic.

 

[Hunter24]

As a child, understanding the true seriousness of receiving the Body of Christ, repenting of my sins with Godly sorrow? at 7 years old? to be honest It is something I did because it’s what you were taught at school and part of the catholic school process.

Ditto. I would say confession and first communion happen a bit to early aswell.

 

[po18guy]

Nor does it say that he didnt. What Jesus said was one of the most blasphemous things a Jew could say, so if this man had his friends take him to Jesus he probably beleaved, and even then he was a consenting, self aware adult.

Well, for 2,000 years, what has been handed on to succeeding generations is that the faith of his friends, which it does say, is what caused grace to flow upon him. We err when we attenpt to read our personal desires into scripture.

This is the huge problem that “bible” christians have - no history to go with an incomplete written record. Scripture is blessed, as far as it goes, but it is far from complete, and tells us so in many places.

 

[JonNC]

Ditto. I would say confession and first communion happen a bit to early aswell.

Curiously, the Orthodox do all three at once at infancy - Baptism, Chrismation (confirmation), and 1st Holy Communion.

Jon

 

[mariyka]

Curiously, the Orthodox do all three at once at infancy - Baptism, Chrismation (confirmation), and 1st Holy Communion.

Jon

As do most Eastern Catholics.

 

[inkaneer]

The girl obviously has not been catechized properly. So here is what I would do. Her current denomination will say that the various references in the scriptures where families and households were baptized do not state that infants were include. They will say that only th eadult members were. They have no evidence for this but this is their ‘out’ if you will. So I would refer her to church history and tell her to find when baptism of infants was either first done or spoken of. The very first discussion of infant baptism was contained in the dialogue between Cyprian of Carthage and a skeptic named Fidus now others such as Irenaeus and Hippolytus had preached [and written] about infant baptism and no one rose to object to their teaching. But Cyprian of Carthage and Fidus had the first debate concerning infant baptism. But the imortant thing was that they did not debated whether children were to be baptized but when. Fidus argued that an infant should be baptized on the eighth day after birth to coincide with the circumcision practice of OT Israel. Cyprian said it should be done immediately. This is the only instance where the baptizing of infant came up in the early church and it was not about whether infants should be baptized at all but whether to do it immediately or wait eight days. Indeed Cyprian would write:

“As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born” (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

Augustine would refer to Cyprian thusly:

“Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born” (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).

Augustine also had this to say about infant Baptism:

“What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond” (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

And this also:

“The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic” (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

Finally ask the girl to find where adult only baptism was first preached in the early church. [HINT: She won’t find it until the 16 or 17 th century]

 

[R_C]

@Corso
Baptism does not make you Catholic. Nor it is a “protective blessing”. It is the ordinary way to regain sanctifying grace. Christian Initiation into the Catholic Church requires you to reach the age of reason, receive First Communion and Confirmation. God does not “force” you to do anything, and neither does His mystical Bride, the Church.
Well, there are a lot of things you learn at a young age. A basic thing is that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. If you decide one day to reject this truth and believe otherwise, that is totally your problem and your decision. All the Church did was teaching you the truth.

Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread.

You obviously have no idea of what the Church is, since you speak of “membership” and seals to serve as if you became some sort of slave. If you were searching for the truth, as you affirm, you’d know by now that the Scriptures state that “there is only one body”, the mystical union in Christ of all the faithful. This is called in Latin ecclesia, which comes from the Ancient Greek ἐκκλησία, which indicates an assembly or community of people.

We profess that the Church - mystical body of Christ - subsists in the Catholic church, and that salvation is accessible to all “by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation.”

The permanent seal you receive is your freedom from the slavery of sin, a seal that Christ gained for you and for all through a most sorrowful life and Passion and death, so that once you commit grave offenses that deserve eternal damnation you are free to repent and receive forgiveness of sins by virtue of that eternal seal. Non-Christians must hope in salvation through God’s mercy and auxiliating (actual) grace, while we are blessed with an ordinary Sacrament to be restored in the fullness of the sanctifying grace.
Ever since the first century the Church specified that Baptism could be also given by aspersion (which some like to call “sprinkling”) and affusion. Since the Church does not require that Baptism be given to infants, but strongly recommends this, it makes perfect sense that we’d rather not perform on an infant a Baptism by immersion…

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But Simon Peter answered Him,
“Lord, to whom shall we go?
You have the words of eternal life.
Also we have come to believe and know
that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

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[ConstantineTG]

Ok, that would make more sense from the child standpoint, but baptism is still considered an initiation, so what if that person grows up to be a person who dosn’t want to be Christian. They have been initiated into a religion they don’t beleave against their will.

This is a rather legalistic way of looking at the Sacraments. The intention of the Sacrament is not to place a legalistic obligation or burden on the person, but rather provide an ontological change to one’s soul to enable the person to receive the grace of God to attain salvation. One’s commitment nor beliefs will have no bearing to the inner, spiritual reality that has been changed and renewed by baptism.

In this regard, would you consider parents wrong for feeding a small child meat if the child grew up to be vegetarian or vegan? Parents do what is best for their children. That is our roles as parents, as is with all the generations of parents before us. Baptism isn’t a contract, commitment or obligation. If a child is sick, wouldn’t you want to give the child medicine? Most children would resist taking medicine because of the taste, should we oblige or should we insist knowing what is better for them? All souls are born afflicted with sin, all souls are born dead. It is baptism that gives the soul life. Wouldn’t a responsible parent want children to have life in their souls?

 

[SwissGuard25]

Baptism is required on a Christian Child.
As Paul said in Colossians 2:11-13:

11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins[a] of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,

What Paul is telling us is that Baptism is the Christian circumcision. So Jewish circumcision is replaced by Baptism. However the laws of circumcision apply to Baptism.

In Genesis 17:12 God explains to us the laws of circumcision:

For the generations to come every male among you who is** eight days old must be circumcised**, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner–those who are not your offspring.

An 8 day old Jewish infant must be circumcised, and eight day old infant christian must be Baptized.

 

[Hunter24]

This is a rather legalistic way of looking at the Sacraments. The intention of the Sacrament is not to place a legalistic obligation or burden on the person, but rather provide an ontological change to one’s soul to enable the person to receive the grace of God to attain salvation. One’s commitment nor beliefs will have no bearing to the inner, spiritual reality that has been changed and renewed by baptism.

In this regard, would you consider parents wrong for feeding a small child meat if the child grew up to be vegetarian or vegan? Parents do what is best for their children. That is our roles as parents, as is with all the generations of parents before us. Baptism isn’t a contract, commitment or obligation. If a child is sick, wouldn’t you want to give the child medicine? Most children would resist taking medicine because of the taste, should we oblige or should we insist knowing what is better for them? All souls are born afflicted with sin, all souls are born dead. It is baptism that gives the soul life. Wouldn’t a responsible parent want children to have life in their souls?

Alright, good expination. I still disagree but your definition of baptism makes it rather difficult to debate because we are on to different levels as to what it is.

 

[Corso]

@Corso
Baptism does not make you Catholic. Nor it is a “protective blessing”. It is the ordinary way to regain sanctifying grace. Christian Initiation into the Catholic Church requires you to reach the age of reason, receive First Communion and Confirmation. God does not “force” you to do anything, and neither does His mystical Bride, the Church.

Traditon and parents, still don’t have much of a choice at the age of 7, or really know any better at that age, you do what your told
Well, there are a lot of things you learn at a young age. A basic thing is that Jesus is really present in the Eucharist. If you decide one day to reject this truth and believe otherwise, that is totally your problem and your decision. All the Church did was teaching you the truth.
You obviously have no idea of what the Church is, since you speak of “membership” and seals to serve as if you became some sort of slave. If you were searching for the truth, as you affirm, you’d know by now that the Scriptures state that “there is only one body”, the mystical union in Christ of all the faithful. This is called in Latin ecclesia, which comes from the Ancient Greek ἐκκλησία, which indicates an assembly or community of people.

I know what a Church is, the issues or questions I have are in asking myself is the catholic church as it states itself “The true Church”, those are the questions I am asking myself.
Did it deviate over the past 2000 years through the thirst for power, land, greed, the immoral acts of humans at it’s highest levels? Were some of the writings, traditions, and additional doctrines all pure and divine? or were they added as ways to keep the people in order, like laws in a government etc. etc. that is the basis for my search.

It seems from reading some history itself, not biased to a religion or religious doctrine itself that major influences regarding or appointing the leadership of the catholic church was either passed down to direct family members or appointed by some of the emperors themselves.

I stated I was born and raised as a catholic, received the sacraments, etc, but now that I can decide for myself when researching, these are some of the questions I have.

I am not super versed in every aspect of religion history, I am starting my search for the truth.
These are questions anyone can have, it may be impossible for me to find the exact truth I am looking for as in the best church for me to worship, but I do know the real truth is Jesus Christ, My Lord and Savior. and he suggested that I ask questions

 

[MarcoPolo]

Those important decisions which had to be made yes, but this is an initiation, not simply a protective blessing.

As a Wiccan, how do you justify your parents’ decision to bring you into the world, i.e. your “initiation” into life, without your permission? Baptism is the same thing, only it is spiritual life. But frankly, if the child doesn’t grow up believing it and doesn’t believe in the ritual anyway, what difference would infant baptism make anyway to an unbeliever’s mind?

 

[R_C]

I know what a Church is, the issues or questions I have are in asking myself is the catholic church as it states itself “The true Church”

But that is not what the Catholic Church claims

We profess that there is only one Church - the mystical Body of Christ - and that the Church subsists in the Catholic church governed by Peter’s successor and the bishops in communion with him.

Now what does that mean? That the Church founded by Christ, no matter what divisions have taken place, still perdures, and always will, in the Catholic Church. That is, the Catholic church is still Christ’s Church. The Church affirms that there can be no “multiplicity” of the Catholic church, since the Creed states our belief in “the Church, which is one, Catholic, Apostolic”. But we don’t say that all other Christian communities are “false churches”…!

Did it deviate over the past 2000 years through the thirst for power, land, greed, the immoral acts of humans at it’s highest levels? Were some of the writings, traditions, and additional doctrines all pure and divine? or were they added as ways to keep the people in order, like laws in a government etc. etc. that is the basis for my search.

It seems from reading some history itself, not biased to a religion or religious doctrine itself that major influences regarding or appointing the leadership of the catholic church was either passed down to direct family members or appointed by some of the emperors themselves.

Searching for the truth is searching for Christ Himself. But I am afraid that this time you are confusing the “hierarchy” of the Church - that is, those who have governed and govern the Church - with the Church itself.

In fact, one of the greatest reasons of faith in the Church is that it stands after 2000 years despite the errors and faults of men who had a strong power in the Church, including the Popes…

…but the history of the Church is so complex that those faults and errors that the world wants you to see as particularly visible are actually a speck of dust in the magnificent ocean of wonders that She has accomplished in the world. Christ never ceased being the head of the Church, and the Holy Spirit, no matter what, has always provided guidance throughout history. As an example I am familiar with in which you can see the Holy Spirit at work, consider the life of Blessed Pope John XXIII

How biased from 10 to 10 would I be if I told you that the best Church is the Catholic Church? Yet I went through your same struggle - perhaps more, perhaps less intense - and anyone who walked away from the Church seeking for the truth and came back will be able to tell you the same.

Some mighty convincing proof for the Church is the Eucharist: the Lord has given Himself to the Church and has given Her the authority to consecrate the Eucharist, and confirmed His real presence with countless Eucharistic miracles - on which you may want to find out more. The love with which the Bride has taken care of the Body of the Bridegroom is, to me, more than enough to never again distrust the Church.

All I could dare to hope for is that while you develop your search, you remain within the Church…I think that would be fair enough towards a Church that loves you and considers you Her son.