Infant vs. Believer's Baptism

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We DO know, given the knowledge of what “household” meant at the time it was used. It would be highly unlikely for a household to NOT contain an infant within it’s walls. You cannot place a modern definition on something that was written in early church history. Context is everything; you are denying context and placing your own uneducated assumptions out there while ignoring historical fact.

So when Kings and their household’s were all put to death, that is all, except the infants? Oh, that’s right, there were no infants, right? :rolleyes:

This man is repeating rhetoric without any solid foundation.

As for the children coming to Christ, it was a teaching period…how do you know they weren’t already baptised? Does Scripture record every baptism that took place? No. The issue was the disciples felt Christ was to busy to be PERSONALLY bothered. The issue of baptism did not arise for or against adults/children…it was an entirely different situation separate from baptism.
 
We DO know, given the knowledge of what “household” meant at the time it was used. ** It would be highly unlikely for a household to NOT contain an infant within it’s walls.** You cannot place a modern definition on something that was written in early church history. Context is everything; you are denying context and placing your own uneducated assumptions out there while ignoring historical fact.
You just won’t let a dead horse be dead, will you? You don’t and can’t KNOW that every single “household” contained infants, and more to the point, you cannot say with certainty that any of the households mentioned in Scripture as being baptized contained infants. It is not as if the word “household” ipso facto has to have infants, by definition. All it means then, and now, is everyone living under the same residential roof, whether it’s one generation or four. Certainly many such “households” contained infants, but you cannot say with absolute positivity that those mentioned in Scripture DID in fact contain infants. So, give it up!:rolleyes: **
As for the children coming to Christ, it was a teaching period….how do you know they weren’t already baptised? Does Scripture record every baptism that took place? No. The issue was the disciples felt Christ was to busy to be PERSONALLY bothered. The issue of baptism did not arise for or against adults/children…it was an entirely different situation separate from baptism.
**That has already been explored. Let me try to find it for you and give you the link… ah, found it, post #214 on page 15, at:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2526176#post2526176
**
 
Phil, I’m still waiting!
Enjoy yourself! I’m still waiting for you to stop fighting the simple, unambiguous words of Christ that we are to baptize and teach only disciples made out of all nations. No need to go extra-biblical. Just read it and believe it and obey it. Stop fighting it.
 
Phil, then I hope you will go and make certain that every head of household that is baptised has his entire household baptised as well 😉
 
The bottom line is, not why or when was it done, but should it have been done? And based on Matt. 28:19-20, it should not have been done then, and it should not be done today.
So, the gist of your position hinges on Matthew 28?

I was once with a large group of Lutheran pastors, and their interpretation of that passage was 180 degrees the opposite of yours. In their mind, the command was to make disciples, and baptism along with teaching was a means by which the church was to accomplish this.

Personally, I’ve always understood it as a three-fold command to make disciples, to baptize, and to teach. Though if I remember my reading of it in Greek that is a little simplistic. The imperitive is indeed “make disciples”. “Going”, “baptizing”, and “teaching” are all participles. Because of this, some understand that we are to be making disicples as we go, just in the normal course of “going” about out everyday business. But participles in this position generally take the imperative force also so it is appropriate to say that Jesus commands us to go forth.

Looking at the grammar again, the syntax of the Greek grammar precludes the Lutheran suggestion that baptizing and teaching are to be understood only in the context as a means for the making of disciples. In fact, they are independent of “make disciples”. For although when a participle preceeds an imperative verb it gains the imperative force for itself, this is not the usual case with participles that follow an imperative verb.

So, baptizing and teaching are not the means of making disciples but they do characterize it. Thus as Jesus disciples go forth making new disciples one of the things they will do subsequent to that is to baptize them and teach them.

Well, that should prove your point. No baptizing until after one is a disciple. EXCEPT, it would then imply that there is to be no teaching until after one is a disicple. My best understanding is that baptizing and teaching is something that we are to do with all who become disciples of Christ. Why? Because once the person is a disciple we are to incorporate them into fully into the body of Christ. The baptism is a sign of entry into the new covenant community, and the teaching is for nurturing a person to spiritual maturity.

This does not preclude these events from happening before the individual is a disciple. Just as we would teach a child raised in the covenant community to be taught about the things of God before he professed faith in them, so too, a child being raised within the covenant community might be baptized as a sign of God’s prevenient grace at work in his life which we trust will bring him to faith.
When Jesus’ disciples saw that Jesus did not baptize any of the infants or small children that their parents brought to Him, and He never instructed His disciples to baptize them, at that point we have children being specifically excluded.
There are many other things that Jesus’ disciples saw that Jesus did not do and did not insturct them to do. That is NOT the same thing as excluding those things. But what we do know is that when the disciples were trying to keep the children from Jesus’ presence that he specifically rebuked them and insisted that they be allowed (i.e. included) in the gathering. He bid them come to him.

If baptism is a declaration of an individual’s own faith, then I would be in total agreement with you. But that type of baptism is more in line with what John the Baptist did. His was a baptism of repentence. Jesus’ baptism we are told is different than John’s. Jesus’ baptism is not a work of the person being baptized. Jesus’ baptism is a work of God.

In Jesus’ baptism, one is baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire. The following allusion to the winnowing fork and the burning of the chaff seems to be one of purification. And is also reminiscent of eschatalogical language of the day of the Lord. The Holy Spirit comes to convict of us sin and lead us into all righteousness. What could be more appropriate, than for us in baptizing an infant who is going to be raised in the faith to be proclaiming not the child’s work (they can confess nothing, nor repent of anything) – John’s baptism would not be appropriate for them. But we proclaim that the Holy Spirit is at work in their lives. He will lead them into righteousness, the stain of original sin is being removed, they are being purified by God’s prevenient grace so that they will be able to respond in faith and, in their own time, make that declaration of faith. For now, by the grace and promises of God, we affirm that they are part of the covenant community, and we await the day that they confirm this decision for themselves. But we baptize them because Christ bids them to come, and no place does he exclude them.
 
since you said the issue of the children already having been Baptized was explored. I felt the issue had been poo poo’d away.
**If the children were “already” baptized, who baptized them? John the Baptist, who baptized with the baptism of repentance? No, **

**Why would you think that is the only alternative?. **

**.
Jesus? Not likely, because His disciples were forbidding them to come to Him, which would not have been the case if they already came to Him and were baptized by Him prior to that.
**well, with that evidence we can assume that they shouldn’t Baptize anyone since they saw Jesus blessing alot of people and not Baptizing them either. Phil there isn’t much to support your view that they couldn’t have been Baptized already. I think the evidence shows it is more likely they were. **
 
Enjoy yourself! I’m still waiting for you to stop fighting the simple, unambiguous words of Christ that we are to baptize and teach only disciples made out of all nations. No need to go extra-biblical. Just read it and believe it and obey it. Stop fighting it.
Phil, I challenged you to show the first case of infant rejection for Baptism.

In response you challenged me to show first century infant baptisms. I did it.

You responded with an ambiguous statement. Your denial of infants in households can be just as strenous of our instistance of infants in households.

So, once again, show me the first rejection of infant rejections.
 
Mark 10:14 – let children come; to such belongs the kingdom
Luke 18:15 – people were bringing even infants to him
Acts 16:15 – She was baptized, with all her household
Acts 16:33 – he and all his family were baptized at once
 
Phil, you bring up a very valid point. We DON’T know how large these households were of if they held infants. But you see, Paul probably didn’t know either. And yet, he says you and your household will be saved.

Now, we understand the Scriptures such as these are meant for the immediate audience as well as us. So, in order to prevent confusion, it seems the Holy Spirit would have guided the authors, such as Luke, to stipulate that Paul only baptized households that had only people of the age of reason.

Please indicate where it shows this, or else you can’t deny that infants were rejected from baptism.
 
Hi, All
The first time the Gospel was ever proclaimed was on the day of Pentecost by the Apostle Peter. In his Spirit-inspired sermon he made it clear that the blessing and promise of salvation was not just for adults, but for children as well.

Question, One Now1, Could there possibly be children 1,2,3,etc. ?
Lots of people at this festival

Pentecost" is derived from the Greek name for Shavuot, one of the three Pilgrimage Festivals required in the Law of Moses. It is described mainly in Leviticus 23:5-21 and Deuteronomy 16:8-10

".And Peter said to them them, 'Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your [CHILDREN], and for all who are far off as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself " (Acts 2:38,39).

As circumscission was God’s covenant with Abraham, so to is the out ward sign of water Baptism in the new covenant.

John3: 5, Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Peace, OneNow1
:coffee:
 
Phil, then I hope you will go and make certain that every head of household that is baptised has his entire household baptised as well 😉
**Why would I do that? So I too can fight against, deny, and disobey Christ’s clear instructions of only baptizing disciples? Not likely.
**
 
**Why would I do that? So I too can fight against, deny, and disobey Christ’s clear instructions of only baptizing disciples? Not likely.
**
Phil, I understand that you see it as a clear instruction from Christ to only baptize disciples. Given that, that is what you should do. However, just because it seems clear to you, does not make it clear. Try as I might, I can in no wise get the interpretation from Matthew 28 that you have provided here.

And I don’t think I am alone one this. If it really were as clear as you suggest, I don’t think that people of good conscience would be still debating it all of these years.
 
**Why would I do that? So I too can fight against, deny, and disobey Christ’s clear instructions of only baptizing disciples? Not likely.
**
Evidently you’ve got no problem denying Christ’s clear instructions given 4 times (?) in John Chapter 6. But hey, that’s another thread.

Oh yeah, I’m still waiting!!! Look to the Anabaptists for starters.
 
So, the gist of your position hinges on Matthew 28?
**Yes, and to some extent Mark 16, because I think those are the only places where we can see Jesus’ final instructions before His ascension when He commissions the Eleven to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Luke mentions repentance and remission of sins being preached (Luke 24:47) but does not even mention baptism. Only in Matt. 28:19-20 do we find the specific instruction as to who they were to baptize, namely, the disciples made of all nations. Mark 16 would seem to say that it is believers only who are baptized, and not infants, since verse 16 says, he who does not believe will be condemned. That would actually condemn infants if they were in view. But they are not in view. Only those capable of believing is in view, and it is only they who are baptized when they do believe.

By the way, though we may not agree on whether infant baptism is proper, I welcome your contribution to this thread. You have reasoned and articulate posts, and I feel I can say something once to you and not need to constantly repeat myself, as it seems I am doing with so many others here.**
Looking at the grammar again, the syntax of the Greek grammar precludes the Lutheran suggestion that baptizing and teaching are to be understood only in the context as a means for the making of disciples. In fact, they are independent of “make disciples”. For although when a participle preceeds an imperative verb it gains the imperative force for itself, this is not the usual case with participles that follow an imperative verb.

So, baptizing and teaching are not the means of making disciples but they do characterize it. Thus as Jesus disciples go forth making new disciples one of the things they will do subsequent to that is to baptize them and teach them.

Well, that should prove your point. No baptizing until after one is a disciple. EXCEPT, it would then imply that there is to be no teaching until after one is a disicple. My best understanding is that baptizing and teaching is something that we are to do with all who become disciples of Christ. Why? Because once the person is a disciple we are to incorporate them into fully into the body of Christ. The baptism is a sign of entry into the new covenant community, and the teaching is for nurturing a person to spiritual maturity.

This does not preclude these events from happening before the individual is a disciple. Just as we would teach a child raised in the covenant community to be taught about the things of God before he professed faith in them, so too, a child being raised within the covenant community might be baptized as a sign of God’s prevenient grace at work in his life which we trust will bring him to faith.
**I agree with everything you say with these exceptions. First, teaching is not precluded before the child comes to faith because that in fact is part of what brings him to that faith. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Rom. 10:17). Just as older hearers have the Gospel preached to them, younger ones can still be taught some basics (at least if they are not mere infants), such as what sin is, the need for a Savior, etc. They learn these from the Word as it is sown in their hearts, even at a very young age. The Holy Spirit does His work, without any need for baptism, in convicting of sin, etc. that ultimately leads to the child’s knowledge of sin, repentance, and finally faith. Then when faith comes, they are believers or disciples and baptism is appropriate.

The “teaching” that Jesus is specifically talking about, I believe, refers to teaching the newly baptized disciple to go out and do all that He commanded the Eleven to do, namely, go and make disciples, baptizing them and teaching them to do the same. So there is teaching both before and after becoming disciples, but there would not be baptizing before and after, only after.

(to be continued)**
 
Phil, no need to repeat yourself (although I thought you were doing it hoping if you repeat yourself enough, that we just might buy it), just produce the first evidence of denial of infants for baptism.
 
I find there are many people like Phil who believe there was Jesus the Apostles, and then everything disappeared until this century.

There is a history, search it for the truth, In that history you will find the creation of the New Testament Cannon. These same “men” also wrote a lot of the doctrine used by the Catholic church today.

Reading scripture is not that easy, it is very confusing and guidance is always necessary.

peace!
jtown
 
**(continued from Post #292)

I was saying I agreed with everything you said with certain exceptions. Your excellent exegesis of Matt. 28:19-20 included these conclusions, with which I totally agree:
**
So, baptizing and teaching are not the means of making disciples but they do characterize it. Thus as Jesus disciples go forth making new disciples one of the things they will do subsequent to that is to baptize them and teach them.
. . .
My best understanding is that baptizing and teaching is something that we are to do with all who become disciples of Christ. Why? Because once the person is a disciple we are to incorporate them into fully into the body of Christ. The baptism is a sign of entry into the new covenant community, and the teaching is for nurturing a person to spiritual maturity.

So far so good. But then you deviate from the above conclusions, all validly drawn from the verses you are exegeting, and say the following, with which I disagree as not being supported by those verses:

This does not preclude these events from happening before the individual is a disciple. Just as we would teach a child raised in the covenant community to be taught about the things of God before he professed faith in them, so too, a child being raised within the covenant community might be baptized as a sign of God’s prevenient grace at work in his life which we trust will bring him to faith.


**How is any of the above supported by those verses? All of it is, in fact, in direct contradiction to those verses, as well as your previous conclusions reached about them. You start well, but finish poorly.

What I find even stranger, however, is this statement of yours from a later post:

**Try as I might, I can in no wise get the interpretation from Matthew 28 that you have provided here.
**
I confess I don’t understand that. It baffles me. After reaching excellent conclusions from your very good exegesis, with which I totally agree, you then “can in no wise get the interpretation from Matthew 28” that I have provided? But you just got that interpretation from your exegesis!! I would ask, how else can you interpret those verses other than how you yourself have already concluded from your exegesis that would be differently understood than how I have maintained all along? Other than your conclusion that the baptism, which should be done to all who become disciples, can actually be done before they become disciples, you have reached the very same conclusions that I have.

Help me out here, Grace Seeker. Am I missing something or misconstruing something you said?**
 
Phil, **no need to repeat yourself **(although I thought you were doing it hoping if you repeat yourself enough, that we just might buy it), just produce the first evidence of denial of infants for baptism.
**You are a broken record stuck in the crack. I don’t know the history of every Christian from the 1st century on and whether any before the Anabaptists were faithful enough to Christ to actually want to believe and obey His simple, unambiguous words. Christ and His disciples certainly denied the infants brought to them baptism and His instructions to His disciples before His ascension certainly denied baptism for infants. Why can’t you just accept that, instead of looking for some much later history, in some vain attempt to show it was not always like that? Matt. 28:19-20 stands true, regardless of man’s disobedience and denial, whenever and wherever that occurred. As I said before, and now find the need to repeat for your sake again, The bottom line is, not why or when was infant baptism done, but should it have been done? And based on Matt. 28:19-20, it should not have been done then, and it should not be done today.

**
 
**You are a broken record stuck in the crack. **As I look back at post #105 dated July 19th (that’s like 14 pages ago, Phil!!!), I just have to ask you:
Does that make you the POT? Or the Kettle???

You’ve been stuck on one passage, for 14 pages and you have the audacity to call me a broken record? Good one, Phil!
I don’t know the history of every Christian from the 1st century on and whether any before the Anabaptists were faithful enough to Christ to actually want to believe and obey His simple, unambiguous words. Christ and His disciples certainly denied the infants brought to them baptism and His instructions to His disciples before His ascension certainly denied baptism for infants. Why can’t you just accept that, instead of looking for some much later history, in some vain attempt to show it was not always like that?
**Well, you disappoint me with this part, Phil. When I first asked you to produce proof that anyone denied baptism to infants, you were quick to jump up and proudly proclaim proof on my part.

Let’s go to the tape:**
**And I challenge you to show me the first recorded incident where an infant was baptized by “the 1st century church.” And please don’t tell me about households in Acts, because we both know (though you will not admit) that in none of those incidents do we see a clear case of a nonbelieving infant being baptized solely because his believing parent was baptized.**And now you’re backing off claiming that you “don’t need no stinkin’ proof”. Well, you shouldn’t have gone and asked me for proof if you didn’t think it was so darn important, Phil.
You see, Phil, EVERYONE understood Jesus crystal clear on this issue. That is, everyone, until our good friends the Anabaptists jumped up and piously denied baptism to infants with all the pride in their Biblical Exegesis as you are today. Phil, I hate to tell you this, but it is YOU who is following the traditions of men, not us Catholics.
Good day.
 
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