Infant vs. Believer's Baptism

[fierysword1920]

This is also what I believe NotWorthy, baptism is our initiation into having the ability to be in the Kingdom of Heaven with our Father. Protestants somehow have been lead to believe that once we are baptised as long as we do the best we can we will be saved. This simply is to easy, I would like it if it were that way because I really would not have to do much other than pray and live as good of a secular life as possible. Father Wolfagang has said to me that he does not know for sure himself if he is saved. He stated that he has lived the best Catholic life he can and given himself fully to God in being a priest. For example the man sleeps on cardboard on a cement floor most nights as one form of pennance and does mass at 3AM and again at 8AM everyday, and he has a perfectly nice rectory provided for him. He said that it would be grossly presumptious of him to assume that he would be saved after everything God has suffered and done for us. Also Father Wolf did not tell me how he sleeps, because that would be bragging and self exalting, I found out because many people in our parish have caught him sleeping on the floor of the Garage while looking for him at odd times. So you are correct notworthy when you say that baptism is simply one step, albeit a very important one, but only one part of the whole just the same that basically gets our foot in the door.

 

[Phil12123]

I noticed the above argument which may be worth checking out.

You were quoting a previous post, or one like it, which said:

In Acts 2:38-39, Peter declares that the promise of baptism “is to you and to your children.” The Greek word for “children” (teknon) is the same word that is later used in Acts 21:21 to describe eight-day old infants preparing for circumcision. This proves that the promise of baptism is for infants.

**If memory serves me, the above was already checked out, considered and rejected for a number of reasons. See, for example, the post at forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2487974#post2487974

**

 

[fierysword1920]

Phil it is true that Christ was the ultimate sin sacrifice, without his self sacrifice the world would have ended and only God knows what he would have done with us and the earth. Faith without works is a dead thing and many people that you and I would think to be assured of heaven are probably not there. God said that many many more would choose the wide path that leads to hell rather than the amount who would choose the narrow and righteous path to Heaven. I understand where your coming from about asking how I don’t know if i’m saved because your faith teaches that once baptised and with continued faith or belief your all set. Satan and the fallen angels have better faith and knowledge of Heaven, God and all things therein and they will not be saved or forgiven so to operate on the belief that through baptism and faith one is locked into Heaven makes no sense at all and I think even the Gospels which are only one teaching instrument and not the sole instrument proves this unequivocally.

 

[Phil12123]

This is also what I believe NotWorthy, baptism is our initiation into having the ability to be in the Kingdom of Heaven with our Father. Protestants somehow have been lead to believe that once we are baptised as long as we do the best we can we will be saved. This simply is too easy, I would like it if it were that way because I really would not have to do much other than pray and live as good of a secular life as possible.

Some Protestants may believe that but they would be wrong. The truth is, “the best we can” is never enough to pay for our sins. We are saved by repentance and faith in the Person and Work of the Lord Jesus Christ, to which we can add nothing. His Work is all-sufficient and all-powerful to save to the uttermost all who come unto God by and through Christ (Heb. 7:25). To think you have to add your works to HIS all-sufficient Work at Calvary, is to say His Work was not enough. I have to suffer and pay for my own sins too. That is double payment, which is both unscriptural and an insult to Him and what He did for you.

Father Wolfagang has said to me that he does not know for sure himself if he is saved. He stated that he has lived the best Catholic life he can and given himself fully to God in being a priest. For example the man sleeps on cardboard on a cement floor most nights as one form of pennance and does mass at 3AM and again at 8AM everyday, and he has a perfectly nice rectory provided for him. He said that it would be grossly presumptious of him to assume that he would be saved after everything God has suffered and done for us. Also Father Wolf did not tell me how he sleeps, because that would be bragging and self exalting, I found out because many people in our parish have caught him sleeping on the floor of the Garage while looking for him at odd times. So you are correct notworthy when you say that baptism is simply one step, albeit a very important one, but only one part of the whole just the same that basically gets our foot in the door.

**Evidently, Wolfgang is not trusting Christ. If that is the case, he is lost, and needs to repent of his sins (including the sin of unbelief and lack of trust in Christ) and receive Christ as his Savior. If a person truly believes Christ died for their sins and rose again, he is not trying to add to that payment his own feeble efforts (“the best he can”), but is simply placing his faith----ALL of it, 100%----in what Jesus did at Calvary as FULL payment for all his sins. Only that saves a person. Any less will leave a soul frustrated and lost.
**

 

[Phil12123]

Phil it is true that Christ was the ultimate sin sacrifice, without his self sacrifice the world would have ended and only God knows what he would have done with us and the earth.

Christ is not only the ultimate sacrifice, but the ONLY sacrifice, that is/was acceptable to the Father. That being said, aren’t you undervaluing it when you add all the other stuff to it, like baptism, works, etc. Consider this: If a person is not baptized and does NO works at all, but simply repents and believes Jesus paid for his sins, would you conclude that was not enough and he would still have to pay for his sins in hell? The good thief was just such a person and he went to paradise. Yes, Jesus was the ultimate and ONLY sacrifice for our sins, so let’s believe and act like it!

Faith without works is a dead thing and many people that you and I would think to be assured of heaven are probably not there. God said that many many more would choose the wide path that leads to hell rather than the amount who would choose the narrow and righteous path to Heaven. I understand where your coming from about asking how I don’t know if i’m saved because your faith teaches that once baptised and with continued faith or belief your all set. Satan and the fallen angels have better faith and knowledge of Heaven, God and all things therein and they will not be saved or forgiven so to operate on the belief that through baptism and faith one is locked into Heaven makes no sense at all and I think even the Gospels which are only one teaching instrument and not the sole instrument proves this unequivocally.

**Yes, the devils belief and tremble, so just “believing in one God” (James 2:19) is never enough. The devils are not believing that Jesus paid for their sins, nor do they have any promise from God (like we do) that such faith will save them. So, they don’t have “better faith”—they may have better knowledge, but not faith.
**
John 6:47 — "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life."

If you “believe” in Christ, you have eternal life. That means to trust in Christ, relying totally on HIM and Him ALONE. In other words, if He and His Work of redemption fails or is not enough, you will be lost for all eternity. You don’t have a Plan B. You are not relying on anything else as a backup, not on your own goodness or your own works or efforts at being pious or anything else. When you have that kind of faith in Christ and His Work of redemption on your behalf, you receive His free gift of eternal life, and you will never perish (John 3:16). And it is NOT presumption to rejoice over that promise, but simply faith that God can be taken at His word. Anything less would be calling Him a liar.

 

[fierysword1920]

You see phil you people always revert back to the garbage that you have learned due to Luther. You do not know whether or not you are saved and going to Heaven and neither does anyone else. I can trust in God, yet he said himself that many would come saying Lord Lord, we have prophesied in your name-so on and so forth. He said he turned his back on them and said he never knew them. You like being a protestant because it afford you the ability of picking and choosing the scripture that fits the context you want to create. You hold so fast to your beliefs because it is one of touchy feel good and everybody there is no hell were all saved and going to sing ring around the rosey with Jesus on clouds up in the sky. My faith is that God can do anything at any time and is always right in what he decides. The Gospels no matter how you twist or interpret them do not guarantee you salvation, myself or anyone else on this earth. You need to work out your faith in fear and trembling as you sola scripturas I am sure have read this passage, yet you only pick the ones that suit you. Before you go and judge my faith or a person like Father Wolf’s who is extremely dedicated to helping all people find salvation, you better figure out exactly who your preaching to because I am not some fool who is gonna take your little needle point scriptures that are taken entirely out of context at face value.
Lastly you protestants are always the first people to judge and condemn others, especially Catholics, you never hear Catholics running around condemning others, yet you can find tons of periodicals published by protestant religous groups damning catholics and calling the Pope antichrist and devil worshippers.
You could not find one published piece of material from a Catholic organization that condemns or insults other faiths. Your rhetoric reminds me of these things, judging myself and Father Wolf based upon your incorrect knowledge of scripture.

 

[fierysword1920]

Exactly what is it that you believe upon Christ? Do you just simply say “Lord Jesus you are my saviour please let my faith be strong enough to save me” or do you participate in all seven sacraments and the Holy Eucharist which is no matter what you say or anyone else, the actual body of Christ as well as the wine which is made into his real blood. How would you explain that Phil that there are hosts that have bled and statues of Mary and Jesus crying real tears and real blood in our chruches, not yours?
It is because your faith is a bastard version of the truth as I have said all along that your church Father Martin Luther produced in the evils of his heart. There was never and is now never a need for a reformation. The Holy Catholic Church teaches the same things now as it did when Saint Peter was given the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and became the first Bishop of Rome. There can never be two seperate truths which occupy the same space. One is truth and one is deception. There are reasons that our church has Saints who have done miraculous things like raising people from the dead by the power of almighty God and apparitions of Mary appearing to devout catholics and that is because we safeguard the only truth given to the apostles, not the truth that Martin Luther came up with out the evil in his heart 15 centuries later. That is just preposterous, oh and the King James version of the bible, that is so full of errors that it is a terrible thing that every one of them have not been set fire to and burned clean from the earth. You can’t build a house on a faulty foundation and that is what protestantism is built upon. Now I have spoke my peace and said what needed to be said. If you still wish further correspondence I will continue to read your posts, but as I said the other day there is no more reason for me to carry on this arguement, I know what the truth is because the Church that Christ setup and promised to always be with, has expounded it to all faithful Catholics. What more needs be said, beleive what you will it’s your soul and God gave free will.

 

[jmcrae]

By His death on the Cross, Jesus washes away our sins.

By His Resurrection, He opened up the door to Heaven.

But not everyone is saved.

We must partake of Christ’s blood on the Cross, and wash off our sins in it. Obviously, we cannot travel through time and physically sprinkle His blood on to our skin the way the Israelites did with their sin sacrifices, so He must have provided some other way for us to do this - and it turns out that He did, by establishing the Sacraments of the Church, especially Baptism, Holy Communion, Reconciliation, and the Anointing of the Sick, which all immerse us in His blood in a spiritual manner, and cleanse us of our sins.

That Jesus has opened the door to Heaven does not mean that everyone steps through the door. Jesus Himself is the door, as He told us - but again, we are not time travellers, and we cannot literally hold His hand, so He left us His Body, the Church, and it is by walking with the Church (which is His Body here on earth) that we are able to walk with Him to Heaven.

 

[fierysword1920]

Very well said and stated, simple, direct and to the point.
Beautiful!

 

[Phil12123]

You see phil you people always revert back to the garbage that you have learned due to Luther.

You sure have it in for Luther, don’t you? I learned nothing from Luther. I’m sure he had some very good points against selling indulgences, etc., but he still clung to the erroneous doctrine of infant baptism, so he isn’t my hero. Jesus is. And He never taught infant baptism.

**You do not know whether or not you are saved and going to Heaven **and neither does anyone else.

I can understand your saying that, since you don’t know that you’re saved and going to heaven. (Which to me is very sad.) But just because you don’t know you’re saved does not give you some right to decree that everyone else can’t know they are saved and going to heaven, especially when the Scriptures say you CAN know that. It’s a shame you don’t believe them.

I can trust in God, yet he said himself that many would come saying Lord Lord, we have prophesied in your name-so on and so forth. He said he turned his back on them and said he never knew them.

Right, and they were depending on their good works (prophesying, etc.) to get them into heaven, but Christ will say, “I never knew you, depart from me you workers of iniquity.” It is not good works that get anyone into heaven. It is the Work of Christ at Calvary and a person’s repentance and acceptance of Him and that Work for their salvation that does. When a person repents and receives Christ, he becomes a sheep that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, knows by name. To them, He will never say, "I never knew you."

You like being a protestant because it affords you the ability of picking and choosing the scripture that fits the context you want to create. You hold so fast to your beliefs because it is one of touchy feel good and everybody there is no hell we’re all saved and going to sing ring around the rosey with Jesus on clouds up in the sky.

That is a total insult to my faith and the Word of God that it is based on. You don’t have the faintest idea what you’re talking about. But I forgive you, because you know not what you say.

My faith is that God can do anything at any time and is always right in what he decides. The Gospels no matter how you twist or interpret them do not guarantee you salvation, myself or anyone else on this earth. You need to work out your faith in fear and trembling as you sola scripturas I am sure have read this passage, yet you only pick the ones that suit you.

**What? Your faith is that “God can do anything at any time”? And yet you don’t believe He can give anyone the assurance of salvation? Is it too hard for God to give a person forgiveness of sins and His gift of eternal life and the assurance that the person indeed possesses those gifts from God? What is amazing is that you can get so hung up on verses that you twist and take out of context to the point that they nullify many other verses. You pick verses that give you lack of assurance and then major on them. I pick verses that show you that you can be forgiven and have eternal life and know it, but I also interpret the others to be consistent with that, rather than nullify that. **

Before you go and judge my faith or a person like Father Wolf’s who is extremely dedicated to helping all people find salvation, you better figure out exactly who you’re preaching to because I am not some fool who is gonna take your little needle point scriptures that are taken entirely out of context at face value.

**How can someone be “extremely dedicated to helping all people find salvation” if he doesn’t have it himself? You can’t share with others something that you don’t have yourself. If he says he doesn’t know if he is saved and going to heaven, how can he help anyone else be saved and get to heaven? He needs that help for himself first.

“Needle point scriptures”? Where do you come up with such baloney? Read the Scriptures for yourself in the Bible, and when you do, believe them and you will find that you too can be saved and know you’re going to heaven.

(to be continued)**

 

[Phil12123]

(continued from my last post)

Lastly you protestants are always the first people to judge and condemn others, especially Catholics, you never hear Catholics running around condemning others, yet you can find tons of periodicals published by protestant religous groups damning catholics and calling the Pope antichrist and devil worshippers.
You could not find one published piece of material from a Catholic organization that condemns or insults other faiths. Your rhetoric reminds me of these things, judging myself and Father Wolf based upon your incorrect knowledge of scripture.

**Sorry, but I find your above accusations laughable when you are doing the exact same thing you accuse others of doing. Your posts are filled with judgment and condemnation of Luther and all protestants who follow his teachings. Including ME, apparently.

You want me to “find one published piece of material from a Catholic organization that condemns or insults other faiths”? That’s easy. Karl Keating and his published book about “Fundamentalists” and “Bible-believing Christians” is a perfect example of a Catholic author condemning and insulting other faiths!

If you feel I have demonstrated “incorrect knowledge of scripture” why don’t you correct me, instead of attacking me and belittling my faith?**

 

[onenow1]

Hi, Phil
Quote= Phil, What? Your faith is that “God can do anything at any time”? And yet you don’t believe He can give anyone the assurance of salvation?

Quotee= OneNow1, An odd thing happens in the gospels, Jesus forgives sins, and tells them to sin no more.

The implication is I believe, sin is still possible even after accepting Jesus initially. But wait ! Jesus has the answer if in fact she does sin again, [confession].

Jesus said to Peter on forgiving not seven but 70 x 7. I find this very interesting in regard to baptism dont’ you ?

St. Paul was’nt sure of his salvation.

So the problem is in the next sin against God’s commandment, do you repeat the believer’s baptism ?

Iknow the standard answer is they did’nt believe in the first place, but that’s just an assumption.

Assurance yes as long as we remain away from sin.

Peace OneNow1

 

[NotWorthy]

** Jesus is. And He never taught infant baptism.**Let the Children come to me, for such is the kingdom of God.

Phil, you have tried, but you just can’t seem to wipe this away. The kingdom includes children, Phil.

I can understand your saying that, since you don’t know that you’re saved and going to heaven. (Which to me is very sad.) But just because you don’t know you’re saved does not give you some right to decree that everyone else can’t know they are saved and going to heaven, especially when the Scriptures say you CAN know that. It’s a shame you don’t believe them.

You are misconstruing Scripture Phil if you cling to the false hope of once saved, always saved. That is one of the most false and misleading teachings among Christian faiths.

Right, and they were depending on their good works (prophesying, etc.) to get them into heaven, but Christ will say, “I never knew you, depart from me you workers of iniquity.” It is not good works that get anyone into heaven. It is the Work of Christ at Calvary and a person’s repentance and acceptance of Him and that Work for their salvation that does. When a person repents and receives Christ, he becomes a sheep that Jesus, the Good Shepherd, knows by name. To them, He will never say, “I never knew you.”

Ah, but he does. To those who don’t do the Will of the Father, they are pruned from the tree and thrown into the fire.****

 

[Phil12123]

An odd thing happens in the gospels, Jesus forgives sins, and tells them to sin no more.

The implication is, I believe, sin is still possible even after accepting Jesus initially. But wait ! Jesus has the answer if in fact she does sin again, [confession].

**Maybe we should define our terms. Perhaps that will help this discussion and avoid confusion or misunderstanding.

When we say “salvation,” we (or at least I) mean deliverance or rescue from hell. I know that word encompasses a lot more, but for our present purposes, let’s say just that. When I say “being saved” or just “saved” I mean it to refer to a person who has received God’s free gift of salvation, which was received when the person repented and accepted Jesus as Savior and Lord. That is to say, he repented of sins and embraced the Person and Work of Christ at Calvary as payment for his sins (not just the sins of the whole world, but of his sins personally). That person, I believe, may be considered on the road to heaven. From a spiritual point (not physical), he is already there (Phil 3:20; Eph. 1:3).

When I say “assurance of salvation,” I mean having received the salvation God gives as a free gift and knowing that you have received it and presently possess it and are therefore on the road to heaven. I would also add, though you may not, that, knowing he is on that road, he will, by God’s grace and help and keeping power, remain on that road to the day of his death.

Now, the question you have raised is, what about the sins that occur after receiving God’s free gift of salvation? Yes, Jesus told the woman, Go and sin no more. And that is what He tells us as well. He forgives us when we repent and accept Him. But He also wants us to “go and sin no more.”

1 John 1:7 to 2:1 deals with that. It is written to Christians and says:**

1:7. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
2:1. My little children, these things I write to you, that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

** In the above passage, we see two things that deal with sins committed after conversion, after salvation. One we do, and the other Christ is doing. We do the one every time we sin, and He is doing the other, as we speak. We confess, and He is our Advocate or High Priest before the Father.

I think you are taking out of context the vine and branches passage of John 15. When we as believers sin, we do not get removed from the vine. That passage is talking about fruitfulness, not sin. There, bearing fruit is evidence of being a branch connected to the vine, the source of life. Without that connection (salvation), there is no life and therefore no fruit. On the other hand, committing sin is not evidence of not being saved, for as 1 John 1:8 says of believers, “If we (believers) say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” It is a fact of life that we as believers sin, but that does not undo our salvation; it simply disrupts our fellowship with God, just as a small child may steal some cookies and then hide from his parents. He is still their child, but any closeness has been disrupted. Confession to the parent and resulting forgiveness restores that closeness and fellowship. Likewise with us, our confession to the Father restores our fellowship with Him. When we became believers we were given everlasting life as a free gift, which does not last only till we sin, or it could never be called “everlasting.” But sin must nevertheless be dealt with, just as a parent deals with their child, by spanking or otherwise. In the believer’s life, that is called chastening or chastisement (see Heb. 12:5-11), and will occur if we have unconfessed sin that we have not dealt with (“if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged” 1 Cor. 11:31).

So, the bottom line is, we can know we are saved and on the road to heaven. John said,** ** “These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.”(1 John 5:13)**

 

[Phil12123]

Let the Children come to me, for such is the kingdom of God.

Phil, you have tried, but you just can’t seem to wipe this away. The kingdom includes children, Phil.

Actually, the kingdom includes ONLY children! Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 18:3). But that does not prove that we are to baptism ALL of them. Only those children who have become disciples or believers did Christ command to be baptized. He never commanded that a parent believe for their child so the child may also be baptized. NEVER.

 

[fierysword1920]

No Phil we cannot know no matter how much you want to believe this false interpretation. Saint Paul said himself that he did not know whether he was saved or not. So are you telling all of us that you are on par with Saint Paul or even above him in yor holiness? C’mon, just like I said you guys like to pick and choose scripture and fit it into the context you like best. Christ said all these things that you remark about, the difference is that, when he said that whoever calls upon me, or does this or does that in my name and is baptised etc. etc. he is declaring that you must do all these other things, which are to observe all sacraments, not just two or three and make pennance and offerings to God and that suffering for God is divine. I know many protestants and in fact my wife and in-laws are bible thumping protestants and they observe none of these things. Why? Because they have no real church history, they and your faith sprang out of thin air in the year, I believe was 1527. Catholic Church started as soon as Abraham took God’s hand, although it was not referred to as Catholic, but was a beginning of sorts. Look at your old testament everything in it points to Christ and his coming along with the one true church. How can your faith possibly be correct when all of the thousands of protestant organizations in the world do not even believe the same. It is absolutely impossible. You say you know God, but you don’t, you scripture which some of the most notorious despot’s and evil men in history have known very well. You knowledge of scripture proves nothing, because you don’t understand it, you simply read it the way you want to hear it so that you feel comforted. Jesus said he came to divide like a sword, not bundle neatly together everyone. There can be only one true church and that is the Catholic Church and outside its embrace there is no salvation.

 

[fierysword1920]

Again Phil you understand not what you read. When Jesus said that we are all to be little children that means that we are all to be innocent in our minds and in our ways. This scripture you pointed out has nothing at all to do with what oneway said. We are all born with the stain of Adams original sin and it must be washed away. I have baptized my daughter and she is only two, I will not be a derelict parent and simply hope that she wants to be a good catholic and become baptized when she God knows whatever age. It is my responsibility to safeguard these things and direct her towards them. She already prays with me every morning and night while we do our Rosary and our fathers. Any parent that allows their children to decide if coming to Christ is the right thing to do on their own is a fool and a very poor parent especially in this world today that is overwrought with evil.

 

[Grace_Seeker]

This is also what I believe NotWorthy, baptism is our initiation into having the ability to be in the Kingdom of Heaven with our Father.Protestants somehow have been lead to believe that once we are baptised as long as we do the best we can we will be saved.

Please, if you can remember, remember that there is no single Protestant view. I find Catholics keep complaining about the 30,000 protestant denominations (though someone recently raised that count to 50,000), and then still speak as if there was a universal Protestant belief or point of view. Please pick one exaggeration and stick with it. (Hint: You’re probably closer to reality in saying there are thousands upon thousands of protestant denominations, and therefore no single theology, such as the one you suggest, that is help throughout protestantism.)

 

[onenow1]

HI,
1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”
3 Jesus answered, “It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him.
4 We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
6 As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man’s eyes with the clay,
7 saying to him, “Go, wash in the pool of Silo’am” (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.

Verse 25, 25 He answered, “Whether he is a sinner, I do not know; one thing I know, that though I was blind, now I see.”

Gensis 2:
5 when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up – for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no man to till the ground;
6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground –
7 then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the

This along with Jesus healing on the sabath a violation of mans law, shows God’s supernatural power using the the original elements of creation. God did the baptising with water not man.

Peace, OneNow1

P.S. Obedience to a Man he did not know.

 

[Phil12123]

Again Phil you understand not what you read. When Jesus said that we are all to be little children that means that we are all to be innocent in our minds and in our ways. This scripture you pointed out has nothing at all to do with what oneway said.

**Who is “oneway”? You may mean “onenow1” but you’re wrong. It was “NotWorthy” to whom I was responding, and if you follow the conversation, you will see what I was saying:
**
Me to you: You sure have it in for Luther, don’t you? I learned nothing from Luther. I’m sure he had some very good points against selling indulgences, etc., but he still clung to the erroneous doctrine of infant baptism, so he isn’t my hero. Jesus is. And He never taught infant baptism.

NotWorthy to me: Let the Children come to me, for such is the kingdom of God. Phil, you have tried, but you just can’t seem to wipe this away. The kingdom includes children, Phil.

Me: Actually, the kingdom includes ONLY children! Jesus said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 18:3). But that does not prove that we are to baptism ALL of them. Only those children who have become disciples or believers did Christ command to be baptized. He never commanded that a parent believe for their child so the child may also be baptized. NEVER.

Do you see the flow of the conversation? I said Jesus never taught infant baptism and NotWorthy comes back with a reference to something that has nothing to do with infant baptism (“Let the children come to me…”). So I went from his reference to children to saying we all need to be “children” to enter the kingdom, obviously not literally. But not all such “children” were commanded to be baptized—only disciples or believers. Did you not understand what I was getting at? I hope this clears that up for you.

We are all born with the stain of Adams original sin and it must be washed away.

Do you have a chapter and verse for that statement?

I have baptized my daughter and she is only two, I will not be a derelict parent and simply hope that she wants to be a good catholic and become baptized when she God knows whatever age.

Where did Jesus command you to do that? Chapter and verse, please. Or are you following some man-made tradition?

She already prays with me every morning and night while we do our Rosary and our fathers.

So, did she ever say to you, “We just said that one. Why do we have to say it over again…and again…and again?” What did you tell her? If we say it five times, maybe God will hear it better than if we only say it once?

Any parent that allows their children to decide if coming to Christ is the right thing to do on their own is a fool and a very poor parent especially in this world today that is overwrought with evil.

Certainly all children need the spiritual guidance that good parents can offer. But if at some point they don’t see themselves as sinners in need of the Savior, and make their own choice to receive Him as their own Savior, they will ultimately walk away from whatever you have led them to, which is probably dead ritual rather than the eternal life that only Jesus gives. Then they will be that much harder to win to Him. While in college, I lived next to two guys who were raised Catholic but who were then both atheists. I can’t tell you their whole story but forcing religious ritual on very young children is not always as helpful as you think. They need to be taught, but it ultimately is their decision, not yours.