Infant vs. Believer's Baptism

[Singinbeauty]

Grace Seeker said:

<>

Very well, then, Grace Seeker. Please tell us EXACTLY where the Bible says that it contains every detail of every ritual that Christians must follow, as you claim it does.

Please tell us EXACTLY where the Bible says that all that is necessary for salvation is contained within it.

What you “claim” or you “think” is not sufficient. Give book, chapter, and verse to support your answer.

Mark 16:15:

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 10:9:

9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] He will come in and go out, and find pasture.

Romans 10:9:

9 That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

I think it is pretty clear… It has nothing to do with what you DO but what you believe and have Faith in.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<Please tell us EXACTLY where the Bible says that all that is necessary for salvation is contained within it.

What you “claim” or you “think” is not sufficient. Give book, chapter, and verse to support your answer.
—End Quote—

—Quote (Originally by Mark 16:15,16)—
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
—End Quote—>>

Try again, Grace.

The question I asked was for you to prove your “claim” and “thoughts” that the Bible contains every deail of everything needed for salvation. You did not answer the question that I asked.

OTOH, the Bible itself makes clear that it does NOT contain everything that Jesus taught. John 21:25.

 

[NotWorthy]

I think it is pretty clear… It has nothing to do with what you DO but what you believe and have Faith in.

When was the last time you read the parable of the Sheep and Goats? Our actions count for nothing? Don’t the Goats get sent to hell specifically for the lack of works?

The key is to define Faith - Faith in the name of Jesus means you believe all of his teachings, including the part that says you must do good things for others, forgiving them of their sins, and more, in order to get to heaven.

 

[Phil12123]

Please tell us EXACTLY where the Bible says that all that is necessary for salvation is contained within it.

The Bible contains all that is necessary for salvation. Why wouldn’t it? Of course, it doesn’t say everything that Jesus said or did, but so what? The point is, everything that is essential for a person to be saved and know it, is contained in several promises, some of which have already been given you by Singinbeauty. So if you, for example, are not saved and know it, you simply aren’t believing the promises given.

 

[Phil12123]

When was the last time you read the parable of the Sheep and Goats? Our actions count for nothing? Don’t the Goats get sent to hell specifically for the lack of works?

The key is to define Faith - Faith in the name of Jesus means you believe all of his teachings, including the part that says you must do good things for others, forgiving them of their sins, and more, in order to get to heaven.

Faith can be demonstrated by what we DO, but it is not those things that save us. It is Jesus Christ and His shed blood that saves us. He paid the price for our sins and for our redemption, and it is when we believe, or receive by faith His free gift of eternal life, that we are saved. Paul in Ephesians 2:8-10 shows the place of works:

**Eph. 2:
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. **

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, since it is a gift of God. But we were created in Christ Jesus for good works. Someone once said, "Faith alone saves, but faith that saves is not alone."

 

[MariaG]

The Bible contains all that is necessary for salvation. Why wouldn’t it? Of course, it doesn’t say everything that Jesus said or did, but so what? The point is, everything that is essential for a person to be saved and know it, is contained in several promises, some of which have already been given you by Singinbeauty. So if you, for example, are not saved and know it, you simply aren’t believing the promises given.

The point is that scripture itself, that is scripture alone, nowhere within the sacred word does it claim that scripture alone is the final authority for anything.

But further along those lines is a new thread.

But since we have all presented scripture, disagree upon the interpretation, maybe the authority of scripture is a good place to take this conversation, in a new thread of course

Just an observation from a lurker (most of the time) to this thread

Peace,
Maria

 

[Phil12123]

The point is that scripture itself, that is scripture alone, nowhere within the sacred word does it claim that scripture alone is the final authority for anything.

But further along those lines is a new thread.

But since we have all presented scripture, disagree upon the interpretation, maybe the authority of scripture is a good place to take this conversation, in a new thread of course

Just an observation from a lurker (most of the time) to this thread

Peace,
Maria

**Hey, I have an idea. Let’s just all admit that Jesus only told them to baptize the disciples they made out of all nations, not infants, and then we can move on to other, perhaps more important matters. OK? Sound like a plan, everyone?
**

 

[onenow1]

Hi,
Quote > Singinbeauty> I agree. But being baptized as a baby is imposing the decision to follow Christ on someone who may not even grow to want to. Baptism, as I have learned it, is about the profession of Faith of which a baby can’t make that decision.

Quote > OneNow1> Illogical, we impose many things on our children till they leave the nest if we did’nt ??? Baptism does not take away free will to choose, poor excuse.

1Cor.2: 5 that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
1Cor4: .20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in talk but in power.

1 Corinthians 10
1 I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

2 and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,

Quote > OneNow1. an interesting verse#2 they also died in the water as we do into Christ at baptism. I like to think a Merciful God took all those who died in the water took under his wing to heaven.

1Cor.12.
3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one cansay “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit.

1Peter 3:
20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.]

Comment: Notice in vs. 21 through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,] you cannot erase the sacrement of baptism that washes away original sin. That would be unloving of a true follwer of Christ.

1Cor 13:
7 Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things

13 So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

In Love and Peace, OneNow1

 

[NotWorthy]

Faith can be demonstrated by what we DO, but it is not those things that save us. It is Jesus Christ and His shed blood that saves us. He paid the price for our sins and for our redemption, and it is when we believe, or receive by faith His free gift of eternal life, that we are saved. Paul in Ephesians 2:8-10 shows the place of works:

Eph. 2:
8. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

We are saved by grace through faith, not works, since it is a gift of God. But we were created in Christ Jesus for good works. Someone once said, “Faith alone saves, but faith that saves is not alone.”

Phil, you are arguing a point that is not even in question. Get this clearly, All Catholics believe that it is our faith that saves us.

But in all your post, it still does not address the question that I asked SinginBeauty. What is the point of the parable of the Sheep and Goats. The Goats were punished - and Jesus gives the reason. It’s because they did none of the things that Jesus asked them. Our works won’t earn us heaven - I know that. But our works our necessary to stay in a state of Salvation, and our lack of works can ruin our chances of heaven.

 

[NotWorthy]

**Hey, I have an idea. Let’s just all admit that Jesus only told them to baptize the disciples they made out of all nations, not infants, and then we can move on to other, perhaps more important matters. OK? Sound like a plan, everyone?
**

chirp… chirp… chirp…

(That’s the sound of crickets as all agree that this is not correct) but nice try, Phil!!!

 

[jmcrae]

**Hey, I have an idea. Let’s just all admit that Jesus only told them to baptize the disciples they made out of all nations, not infants, and then we can move on to other, perhaps more important matters. OK? Sound like a plan, everyone?
**

But the Disciples did baptize the infants along with everyone else - and in fact nobody thought up “adults only” Baptism until many centuries later - did they all misunderstand Jesus? And considering that they were the ones who actually wrote the Scriptures, are you thinking that they were able to write down what Jesus said accurately, but were unable to remember it, or to know what it was?

 

[jmcrae]

We cannot work our way to Heaven, but we can certainly sin our way to Hell, both through sins against the Commandments, and through sins of omission, by not doing what we know to be right, such as giving food, shelter and clothing to the poor, visiting the sick and those who are in prison, actively participating at Church, and helping to spread the Gospel to the whole world.

It is no good to say, “I prayed the sinner prayer and I never committed adultery or stole anything,” if you also never went to Church and never helped anybody else without expecting a reward.

 

[justasking4]

jmcrae;2636430]But the Disciples did baptize the infants along with everyone else

Would you happen to have chapter and verse for this?

• and in fact nobody thought up “adults only” Baptism until many centuries later - did they all misunderstand Jesus?

Evidently since infants cannot believe. Belief is required before baptism.

And considering that they were the ones who actually wrote the Scriptures, are you thinking that they were able to write down what Jesus said accurately, but were unable to remember it, or to know what it was?

 

[NotWorthy]

Would you happen to have chapter and verse for this?

Justasking, you are aware of the numerous households that were baptized, without any exceptions, Catholics teach that infants were probably baptized in them. No one has been able to provide proof that they were prevented.

Evidently since infants cannot believe. Belief is required before baptism.

I’ll summarize the previous 36 pages of this thread:

A) Circumcision, done on 8 day olds pre-figured Baptism.
B) Jesus taught for others to bring the children to Him.
How did Jesus invite adults? “Come to Me…”
How did Jesus invite infants? “Bring the Children to Me…”
C) The Apostles practiced infant Baptism with whole households being baptized.
D) The Church in the 1st century and every century since then practiced infant Baptism
E) The teachings of the baptism of infants has remain unchanged.

 

[bpbasilphx]

<<*Hey, I have an idea. Let’s just all admit that Jesus only told them to baptize the disciples they made out of all nations, not infants, and then we can move on to other, perhaps more important matters. OK? Sound like a plan, everyone?>>

In other words, just roll over and admit that infant baptism is wrong.

I don’t think so.

 

[Phil12123]

Justasking, you are aware of the numerous households that were baptized, without any exceptions, Catholics teach that infants were probably baptized in them. No one has been able to provide proof that they were prevented.

**You are basing an entire teaching on a “probably” since there was no command to baptize anyone other than disciples made of all nations (Matt. 28) or “he who believes” (Mark 16). Admit it—there is not a single instance of an entire household being baptized that unequivocally states any infants were baptized simply because their parents believed and were baptized. NOT A SINGLE INSTANCE.

So you are arguing from total silence in the scriptural record and based on total conjecture. YOU have the burden of proof and YOU have to prove infants were baptized, not me prove they were prevented. No one can prove a negative, other than by looking at the positive statements of who Jesus said to baptize.**

 

[Phil12123]

<<*Hey, I have an idea. Let’s just all admit that Jesus only told them to baptize the disciples they made out of all nations, not infants, and then we can move on to other, perhaps more important matters. OK? Sound like a plan, everyone?>>

In other words, just roll over and **admit that infant baptism is wrong.

I don’t think so**.

**Well, someone is wrong, and all I’m doing is going by what Jesus said. You on the other hand are ignoring His command, disobeying it, fighting against it tooth and nail.

Compare that with this: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” Do you love Him? Do you keep His command to baptize only who He said to? **

 

[NotWorthy]

You are basing an entire teaching on a “probably” since there was no command to baptize anyone other than disciples made of all nations (Matt. 28) or “he who believes” (Mark 16).Phil, you have zoned out on the entire thread if you think our whole teaching is based on a probably. I was trying to help “justasking” to catch up on this thread by repeating the summary. We’ve spent days on other reasons for baptism of infants, so please don’t belittle this by claiming a teaching simply on “probably”.

Admit it—there is not a single instance of an entire household being baptized that unequivocally states any infants were baptized simply because their parents believed and were baptized. NOT A SINGLE INSTANCE

NOT A SINGLE INSTANCE. When in doubt, look to what the early Church did, those that learned at the feet of the Apostles. What do we see? We see infant baptism as a practice of the Church while the Apostles were still alive.
**

So you are arguing from total silence in the scriptural record and based on total conjecture. YOU have the burden of proof and YOU have to prove infants were baptized, not me prove they were prevented.

**No, I am simply being forced to follow a rule that the Church NEVER taught. Sola Scriptura is non-biblical, Phil.

No one can prove a negative, other than by looking at the positive statements of who Jesus said to baptize.

In the meantime, try and remember your arguments on “Bring the Children to me, for the Kingdom of Heaven belongs to such as these”. It fell short the first time, but you can try it again.

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, someone is wrong, and all I’m doing is going by what Jesus said. You on the other hand are ignoring His command, disobeying it, fighting against it tooth and nail.

**Phil, for about a month, you’ve accused Catholics of disobeying Jesus, of fighting him. I’ve tried to be patient with this accusation, but I’m simply tired of it. Unless you go back to the patient and loving Phil that we’ve come to know and love (My goodness, we were singing “Kumbaya” just two days ago!!!), then I’m not going to deal with you anymore.

No one has accused you of willfully disobeying and fighting Jesus. We’d only like the same respect from you, even if we disagree with you. You’ve seen our reasons for believing,
a) Pre-figuring (baptism of 8 day olds)
b) teaching of Christ (bring the children to me)
c) practice of NT church (baptizing of whole households)
d) practice of early Church, post biblical (practiced in 1st century)
e) Consistent and non-changing teaching for 2000 years.

You can at least respect our beliefs instead of making yourself look petty by claiming we’re fighting Jesus’ words.

Compare that with this: “If you love Me, keep My commandments.” Do you love Him? Do you keep His command to baptize only who He said to?

**Phil, over the last month, I’ve received several PM’s contgratulating me on how patient I’ve been with you. I believe I’ve just received my last PM on that issue.

 

[fierysword1920]

Yes you have phil, he is the creator of your theology, without Luther there is no protestantism. He is the father of your church and basically all other non catholic christian organizations. So when you say that you have learned nothing from him, that is a foolish comment. You come here spouting what you believe to be truths which WERE and ARE doctrines of Luther, Calvin and Zwingman, but they are doctrinally false and therefore untruths=LIES.
Give it up Phil your wrong and simply to proud to admit it. You don’t even know the history of your own beliefs so how can even try to tell us what is right and what is wrong.