Infertility frustrations

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SilverLight said:
Then the question of do you want a child or not may unfortunately come up. They could also adopt. I feel for the OP and his wife because both my parents tried for a long time to have kids by natural means and in vitro. They eventually stopped because they felt it was part of Gods plan to not have children that way. I was then adopted and they gained a child to love and hold.
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As the brother of a wonderful adopted sister, adoption is a beautiful option, to be sure. Just do not construe the need to adhere to moral options as guided by our Church as callousness or indifference. I am sure the OP’s heart breaks knowing his wife’s (and his own) desire for child, but we still have our obligations, no matter how difficult.
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
As the brother of a wonderful adopted sister, adoption is a beautiful option, to be sure. Just do not construe the need to adhere to moral options as guided by our Church as callousness or indifference. I am sure the OP’s heart breaks knowing his wife’s (and his own) desire for child, but we still have our obligations, no matter how difficult.
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I’m just saying if my husband told me that because he does not believe it is right for us to do something regarding me getting pregnant and me trying so hard (stopping to say I am not married yet and have no plans to be right now) I may very well break down and cry. I also want to mention that I was raised Catholic myself I know what the church says. If one thing is stopping me from naturally having a child that can be fixed and is caused by nature it’s self I see no problem with getting a little help doing so. I would have no bad feelings doing so because it’s bringing life into the world and of course only under good conditions in life and not during turbulent times.

I’m not trying to argue or make people angry here.
 
SilverLight said:
I’m just saying if my husband told me that because he does not believe it is right for us to do something regarding me getting pregnant and me trying so hard (stopping to say I am not married yet and have no plans to be right now) I may very well break down and cry. I also want to mention that I was raised Catholic myself I know what the church says. If one thing is stopping me from naturally having a child that can be fixed and is caused by nature it’s self I see no problem with getting a little help doing so. I would have no bad feelings doing so because it’s bringing life into the world and of course only under good conditions in life and not during turbulent times.

I’m not trying to argue or make people angry here.
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These are my feelings as well.
 
cshoremom said:
These are my feelings as well.
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Wait, how are those your feelings, friend? I thought you had said you could not go through with the IUI because of the ethical and moral concerns, not to mention the Church’s teaching?

Note that Silverlight is not saying that is the proper response, or what we are called to do, merely that that is what she would do, regardless of whether it is correct or not.

Bear in mind that our marriages will never trully benefit when we contravene God’s desires. We may be placated by shortcuts, and may even be blessed with a child through illicit means, but the sanctity of the marriage is always short-circuited when we take unethical shortcuts. We are not doing our spouses any favors by indulging their whims or desires when they are not aligned to Christ. I struggle with this is my marriage, as I hate disappointing my wife, and want her to be eternally happy. However, my calling is to see her eternally holy, and I have to realize that her happiness flows from that. There is a difference between fleeting pleasure and true happiness which can only come from serving the Lord.
 
Maximilan_Kolbe said:
Wait, how are those your feelings, friend? I thought you had said you could not go through with the IUI because of the ethical and moral concerns, not to mention the Church’s teaching?

.
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No, actually I said I did IUI . Successfully for two of my children.

I just went back and reread my response. It was long and ramble and maybe not clear. I apologize.

Certainly I am not trying to persuade the OP that this is OK, correct, just fine, etc)
This IS what I did ,was giving my personal experience.
 
cshoremom said:
my husband And I struggled for 5 years to have our first child, and another 5 to have our 2nd. This may be TMI… but my uterus was tipped so forward it was impossible for sperm to get where it needed to go. Our option was simply Intrauterine Insemination . He and I visited the doctor together. Obtained the sample. And the Dr ( actually… his nurse) did the insemination with a syringe and thin tube. His sperm, my egg(s), and a little mechanical assistance.** Personally, I had no problem morally/ethically, even knowing the Church’s stance. ( and I know many would disagree. I am just giving you my personal feelings, right or wrong). we would not have pursued In Vitro , but IUI just gave us the “mechanical” assistance we needed,** and He took over from there, allowing us to have 3 beautiful kiddos! ( the 3rd was conceived “normally” at home… apparently, growing 2 very large babies straightens a uterus out!
I prayed for Him to let me know if this was something I should do. I felt nothing but peace.
Could you speak to your own parish priest and ask for his (name removed by moderator)ut?
Good luck. I will pray for you and your wife. Infertility is stressful and heartbreaking… I know it is a very hard decision to explore treatment options, and decide if it is right for you.
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It is in vitro we would not have pursued. Again, just my own personal feelings/opinion.
 
Hi. OP here.

Well. We had this conversation tonight. About how I wasn’t comfortable with IUI.

It went about as well as you could expect. Terribly. She was extremely, maybe justifiably so, upset.

I’m going to call the NCBC in the morning. She, right now, isn’t willing to listen to what they say because I think she knows the answer. I’m afraid I won’t get much satisfaction from them either and they’ll just tell me what I already know. That the RCC hasn’t officially spoken on this issue but that it does seem to be problematic.

Great. Tell me something I don’t already know please.
 
Also…

It is INCREDIBLY frustrating to read moral theological opinions on this topic. I can be reading the same passage and get the answer that “yes IUI is acceptable” and “no, it is not” within two paragraphs of each other.

My wife and I can read the same passage and both make arguments for or against the permissibility of IUI using citations from the same theologian! It’s driving me crazy!

All I want is the truth! I feel like Pilate when he said “What is Truth?”
 
cshoremom said:
…Could you speak to your own parish priest and ask for his (name removed by moderator)ut?.
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If the Priest is faithful to the teaching of the Church,we know the general thrust of his (name removed by moderator)ut. If he is not, then he expresses a personal opinion, of no more value than anyone else’s. Of course, after explaining what is right (hopefully), the Priest may well be able to offer some support and comfort, or recommend appropriate medical avenues.
 
SilverLight said:
I’m just saying if my husband told me that because he does not believe it is right for us to do something regarding me getting pregnant and me trying so hard (stopping to say I am not married yet and have no plans to be right now) I may very well break down and cry. I also want to mention that I was raised Catholic myself I know what the church says. If one thing is stopping me from naturally having a child that can be fixed and is caused by nature it’s self I see no problem with getting a little help doing so. I would have no bad feelings doing so because it’s bringing life into the world and of course only under good conditions in life and not during turbulent times.

I’m not trying to argue or make people angry here.
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Fixing a medical problem is good. Engaging an artificial process, including 3rd parties, to produce conception is different from fixing the medical impediment and then conceiving in the usual way. The morality of the former process can be discussed, but it should not be described as fixing a medical problem - it is a different kind of act.
 
MariaHope said:
Have you heard of NaPro technology? These doctors are highly trained in dealing with fertility issues and they never recommend treatments against Church teaching since it’s founded by Catholics. They also have a much higher success rate than the artificial technologies and it’s safer and healthier for the woman. I had very very very bad fertility issues and my NaPro doctor was able to help me conceive. To find a teacher and/or doctor you can go to: fertilitycare.org/
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I know this thread is old and dead by now… but…

I wanted to revive it to let people know that my wife and I visited a NaPro doctor aaaannnd…we’re pregnant!

The prayers of the Catholic doctors at the napro clinic were, I’m sure, instrumental in helping us to conceive. Really amazing people.

We tried to conceive for four years. And this last cycle? Completely natural. No drugs or any treatments to speak of.

My wife recently had surgery to remove endometriosis because our Catholic fertility doctor/OBGYN found it in a previous surgery.

So thankful.
 
cfreeman said:
I know this thread is old and dead by now… but…

I wanted to revive it to let people know that my wife and I visited a NaPro doctor aaaannnd…we’re pregnant!

The prayers of the Catholic doctors at the napro clinic were, I’m sure, instrumental in helping us to conceive. Really amazing people.

We tried to conceive for four years. And this last cycle? Completely natural. No drugs or any treatments to speak of.

My wife recently had surgery to remove endometriosis because our Catholic fertility doctor/OBGYN found it in a previous surgery.

So thankful.
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I’m so glad you updated this! What good news.
 
cfreeman said:
I wanted to revive it to let people know that my wife and I visited a NaPro doctor aaaannnd…we’re pregnant!
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I am extremely happy for you. My wife and I are in the same boat you were when you started this topic and have been intentionally trying for three years and leaving it to chance for five. We will certainly be looking into NaPro.

I did want to add for others in this boat, the use of IUIs is not a procedure that the Church has ruled out if the sperm sample is otherwise obtained through licit means. Catholics are called to pray and personally discern what is right for them before proceeding. Here is the response I received from the National Catholic Bioethics Center:
Mr. ______,
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Thank you for your email. I have to say at the start that we do not provide medical advice.

The Church rejects artificial insemination both for married and unmarried couples when it involves masturbation as a means of obtaining sperm and functions as a substitute for normal marital intercourse.

There is some debate as to whether intrauterine insemination (IUI) can be performed in a manner that is consistent with the teachings of the Church. At a minimum, the sperm would have to be collected in the context of a real act of marital intercourse in a perforated condom or silastic sheath. Beyond the collection of sperm is the issue of whether IUI “assists” or substitutes for a marital act. Here are quotes from two teaching documents of the Church which articulate the principle to be respected:
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On the other hand, techniques which act as an aid to the conjugal act and its fertility are permitted. The Instruction Donum vitae states: “The doctor is at the service of persons and of human procreation. He does not have the authority to dispose of them or to decide their fate. A medical intervention respects the dignity of persons when it seeks to assist the conjugal act either in order to facilitate its performance or in order to enable it to achieve its objective once it has been normally performed”.[24] And, with regard to homologous artificial insemination, it states: “Homologous artificial insemination within marriage cannot be admitted except for those cases in which the technical means is not a substitute for the conjugal act, but serves to facilitate and to help so that the act attains its natural purpose.” The Dignity of the Person #12.

The teaching of the Magisterium on this point has already been stated.(51) This teaching is not just an expression of particular historical circumstances but is based on the Church’s doctrine concerning the connection between the conjugal union and procreation and on a consideration of the personal nature of the conjugal act and of human procreation. "In its natural structure, the conjugal act is a personal action, a simultaneous and immediate cooperation on the part of the husband and wife, which by the very nature of the agents and the proper nature of the act is the expression of the mutual gift which, according to the words of Scripture, brings about union ‘in one flesh’ ".(52) Thus moral conscience “does not necessarily proscribe the use of certain artificial means destined solely either to the facilitating of the natural act or to ensuring that the natural act normally performed achieves its proper end”.(53) If the technical means facilitates the conjugal act or helps it to reach its natural objectives, it can be morally acceptable. If, on the other hand, the procedure were to replace the conjugal act, it is morally illicit. Artificial insemination as a substitute for the conjugal act is prohibited by reason of the voluntarily achieved dissociation of the two meanings of the conjugal act. Masturbation, through which the sperm is normally obtained, is another sign of this dissociation: even when it is done for the purpose of procreation, the act remains deprived of its unitive meaning: “It lacks the sexual relationship called for by the moral order, namely the relationship which realizes ‘the full sense of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love’.” Gift of Life, #6.
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At issue is whether IUI after normal marital intercourse and collection of sperm actually substitutes for the marital act. Here is a link to an argument that IUI in fact substitutes, and so is unethical. Attached is an article that asserts that it is legitimate. Since there is not a clear and specific teaching on IUI, you will have to form your conscience in light of what the Church teaches and apply that teaching to what options are offered to you.
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In responding to questions like yours in the recent past, I have found that, in order to increase the odds of success, men are offered options that effectively separate the original marital act and collection of sperm from the subsequent act of insemination, for example, scientists suggest to a couple that they collect sperm by multiple acts, that various forms of testing and preparation of the sperm precede the act of insemination, etc. I think it is best, morally speaking, to work with a doctor to assist specific acts of love – for example, by moving as quickly as possible (say within 24-48 hours) from an act of love to the IUI. This will help to ensure that any procreation will be seen as and will be a “begetting” (a unique collaboration of two persons in love and of God) and not a “making or production.”

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.
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All that said, I entirely respect your decision cfreeman, and as I said, I will certainly be looking into NaPro. I am so happy that you are able to have a child, and I can very much personally relate to the emotional struggles you’ve had. God bless.
 
We actually did do an IUI, twice. We used a “licitly obtained” sperm sample. Still not sure how I feel about it morally.

However, neither IUI resulted in a conception or pregnancy (that we know of). This is likely due to the fact that she had underlying health problems (such as the endometriosis that was discovered and removed by the NaPro doctor).

NaPro doctors are great because they care about the whole health of the person and don’t have a “get pregnant at any cost” mentality.
 
cfreeman said:
This is maybe more a vent, and a plea for prayer.

Sometimes I wish I didn’t know the Church’s teaching on assisted reproductive technology so well. Our doctor wants us to do an IUI, but to the best of my understanding, this isn’t really an option. The only theologians who think it is are dissenters from fairly clear teaching by the Popes.

I wish I didn’t know the teaching so well so that I could claim ignorance and ask forgiveness later. I know there are many out there that use these technologies without being totally aware of their moral implications. My wife wants badly to have an IUI, but I don’t think I can go along with it.

Mother Mary, pray for me.
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I feel your pain I’ll never have a child myself and the last couple of years it’s been a little hard but you have my prayers.
 
:extrahappy: CONGRATULATIONS!!! 😃

We also conceived our one and only miracle naturally several months after Endometriosis removal surgery. 🙂
 
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