Infertility

[titi920]

Antonio,

As far as my research has gone the “withdrawl method” is not acceptable for a semen analysis or birth control by the church. I agree that God does not have gray areas-just humans wanting to find a way around the black & white.

My husband took the test-it is a small sacrafice to submit to something like this, in my opinion, for the greatest good of creating life. As well as to say I think if a woman can submit to the agony of birthing a baby-surely you can help in this department by taking the test in a church approved way, right?

 

[titi920]

In reading Dignitas Personae I also came across this paragraph which speaks to couples struggling with infertility and the proper attitude we should have…A good reminder for us all-The desire for a
child cannot justify the “production” of offspring, just as the desire not to have a child cannot
justify the abandonment or destruction of a child once he or she has been conceived.

Thank you so much for posting this.

The thing I struggle with as a LTTTC Catholic is how hard it is when I feel so desperate for a child seeing other women successfully finally conceive by assisted reproduction. There is a small part of me that fears when the pain and grief get too much down the years I will find it harder to not be tempted to some means of ART. This quote was so helpful for me-as it really made an impact-I can keep this close to my heart as a very smart comparison.

We are both open to adoption but the cost and procedure seem like such hurdles…I wish I knew more about how to go about it.

 

[belovedandbless]

Here is a link for the patron saint of mothers, physicians and unborn children, St. Gianna Beretta Molla. I hope that you find inspiration in her story. Prayers for intercession have resulted in many couples coneiving or troubled pregnaices being saved. See the Testimonies link on the site…

saintgianna.org/main.htm

 

[Dj87]

Infertility is an issue very near and dear to me, as I have suffered a lifetime with issues relating to my fertility and even left the church for a period because of it. I was born with an extremely rare condition in which my body doesn’t produce testosterone. I suffered greatly as I wasn’t diagnosed with the disorder until I was 23 years old. Because of this I went through the most horrible teenage years anyone could ever have. Suffering bitter, bitter nasty lockerroom hazing and very very cruel harrassing throughout high school. By the time I graduated, I was so isolated and alone that I literally couldn’t tell you the names of anyone I graduated with.

I entered the workforce in a very isolating job and kept to myself. I had no social life at all and my only friends were my elderly parents. Because of the lack of hormones, I had no secondary sexual characteristics…no facial hair, high-pitched voice, no masculine development at all. This was bad enough, but I even had some female characteristics, no temporal recession of the hair, and female like breast development.

When I was 23, I finally went to a doctor and was diagnosed with a rare form of hypogonadism at which time I was told, that I would have to be on weekly injections and I most likely could never have children. This was devastating, as my overly prcocious brother only two years older than me had six kids and no way to support any of them. I had always wanted kids and this revelation made me bitter and cold. I was very distraught for a great period of time at which the church bore my frustration. How could God think it was okay for my doofus brother to have so many kids one after the other with no job living on welfare with no priority for his kids at all, and here I was responsible and conscientious and can’t even seek medical expertise to help me. This way of thinking led to me falling away from the church.

Within two years of taking testosterone, I got married. I met, went on my first date, had my first kiss, and married the only girl I ever went out with. Those early years were very difficult as everyone constantly asked when we would have kids. Younger girls my wife knew were getting pregnant one didn’t even know who the father was. Every night it seemed my wife would cry herself asleep. We never told anyone there was a problem, because men have feelings of insecurity with their masculinity when they’re infertile, but I really had masculity problems. Everything that was male about me came from a bottle.

My wife and I saved every cent we could with the idea of trying an experiment that may allow us to conceive. With the help of a very renowned endocrinologist, I started taking injections daily of a hormonal cocktail. I underwent tests, ultrasounds, MRIs during this period as did my wife. During this time we found out that my wife had PCOS, and despite two doctor’s telling us to save our money we kept plowing ahead.

Sperm counts we’re a necessary evil on a monthly basis, because my wife and I did every test together and I was a non-practicing Catholic, these tests didn’t bother me that much at that time, but have since. Normal men produce 250-300million sperm, sub fertile men about 60million sperm, infertile men 40 million. My first sperm count I produced no sperm. After more than $50,000 and 2 years, my sperm count had risen to 3million. A month before our money was gone, we conceived!! Nine months later my wife delivered our son. It was a very special time for us and still continues to be the best even eight years later. Right from the beginning my son and I have had a very special bond. He looks just like me and we’re two peas in a pod.

I have underwent many tests, studies, scans, plastic surgery and emotional trials in my lifelong journey and several years after my son’s birth I was re-united to the Catholic faith and am experiencing the most wonderful spiritual times of my life. If I can help anyone, please don’t be hesitateto contact me and we can taalk or post here.

God Bless

 

[LittleDeb]

Dj87,
Thank you for sharing such an amazing story!! You are a true inspiration for working within God’s design and finally receiving the ultimate blessing.

The sperm count could have been done morally if only your lab would have let you know the options. Let that go. You are not responsible for what you did not know. They should tell everyone the right options, not just Catholics. Most of the men I know, Catholic or not, abhor the immoral means.

Your financial sacrifice was very high, but knowing that the conception itself was following the natural design is a terrific reimbursement. I am so glad you both got healthy. That is what really matters. Fix what is broken and then let nature take its course.

It is also proof that it CAN be done. God bless you and your wonderful family!! Welcome back to fullness of the faith. Your story truly touched my heart.

 

[Alexander_Smith]

Infertility is an issue very near and dear to me, as I have suffered a lifetime with issues relating to my fertility and even left the church for a period because of it. I was born with an extremely rare condition in which my body doesn’t produce testosterone. I suffered greatly as I wasn’t diagnosed with the disorder until I was 23 years old. Because of this I went through the most horrible teenage years anyone could ever have. Suffering bitter, bitter nasty lockerroom hazing and very very cruel harrassing throughout high school. By the time I graduated, I was so isolated and alone that I literally couldn’t tell you the names of anyone I graduated with.

I entered the workforce in a very isolating job and kept to myself. I had no social life at all and my only friends were my elderly parents. Because of the lack of hormones, I had no secondary sexual characteristics…no facial hair, high-pitched voice, no masculine development at all. This was bad enough, but I even had some female characteristics, no temporal recession of the hair, and female like breast development.

When I was 23, I finally went to a doctor and was diagnosed with a rare form of hypogonadism at which time I was told, that I would have to be on weekly injections and I most likely could never have children. This was devastating, as my overly prcocious brother only two years older than me had six kids and no way to support any of them. I had always wanted kids and this revelation made me bitter and cold. I was very distraught for a great period of time at which the church bore my frustration. How could God think it was okay for my doofus brother to have so many kids one after the other with no job living on welfare with no priority for his kids at all, and here I was responsible and conscientious and can’t even seek medical expertise to help me. This way of thinking led to me falling away from the church.

Within two years of taking testosterone, I got married. I met, went on my first date, had my first kiss, and married the only girl I ever went out with. Those early years were very difficult as everyone constantly asked when we would have kids. Younger girls my wife knew were getting pregnant one didn’t even know who the father was. Every night it seemed my wife would cry herself asleep. We never told anyone there was a problem, because men have feelings of insecurity with their masculinity when they’re infertile, but I really had masculity problems. Everything that was male about me came from a bottle.

My wife and I saved every cent we could with the idea of trying an experiment that may allow us to conceive. With the help of a very renowned endocrinologist, I started taking injections daily of a hormonal cocktail. I underwent tests, ultrasounds, MRIs during this period as did my wife. During this time we found out that my wife had PCOS, and despite two doctor’s telling us to save our money we kept plowing ahead.

Sperm counts we’re a necessary evil on a monthly basis, because my wife and I did every test together and I was a non-practicing Catholic, these tests didn’t bother me that much at that time, but have since. Normal men produce 250-300million sperm, sub fertile men about 60million sperm, infertile men 40 million. My first sperm count I produced no sperm. After more than $50,000 and 2 years, my sperm count had risen to 3million. A month before our money was gone, we conceived!! Nine months later my wife delivered our son. It was a very special time for us and still continues to be the best even eight years later. Right from the beginning my son and I have had a very special bond. He looks just like me and we’re two peas in a pod.

I have underwent many tests, studies, scans, plastic surgery and emotional trials in my lifelong journey and several years after my son’s birth I was re-united to the Catholic faith and am experiencing the most wonderful spiritual times of my life. If I can help anyone, please don’t be hesitateto contact me and we can taalk or post here.

God Bless

This has to be one of the most amazing, and beautiful stories I’ve ever read. What a wonderful thing that God rewarded all your hard work in the end with a son of your own.

I can hardly imagine the pain and effort that you and your wife have gone through. It sure does warm my heart to read things like this.

God bless all three of you. I wish you the best.

 

[rachial]

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[liliana51886]

I have a question… Can you say, or direct me to a place that would have what infertility testing a man can do? I am not sure how much I can say on the internet, but I am specifically refering to a specific test where they need the man to test how fertile he is by checking his sperm count. My husband and I have been trying to have children since we got married 4 years ago. I am familular with what I can do, but not him. Can any one help me? Thanks!

 

[Dj87]

Any doctor can request a sperm count although, usually it’s a endocrinologist. collection can be done at home and brought to the nuclear medicine department of the hospital. There are a number of things they need to evaluate in a sperm count, motility, penetration ability, among others. In one of my tests they actually knew I was fighting a cold from the white blood cells present. It’s really amazing.

I’d recommend going to your Catholic hospital and ask them for the acceptable method of collection. But make sure he isn’t at all reluctant, because based on what they find there will be a lot more tests to follow.

 

[Kiwi11]

Liliana,

You could have your OB/GYN order the test, a primary physician or a reproductive endocrinologist. This may be more information than what you asked for but…
I just went through this experience about 6 months ago. For the morally acceptable way to do this is to buy a special condom “semen collection device”. This condom has no spermicides or jellies in it and you can poke a whole in it it with a pin (perforate it) so that while you are having intercourse, sperm is still able to get through. Either ask your Dr. where you can get this or if you are seeing an reproductive endocrinologist they should have them at their office. I think I paid about 20$ per condom- and buy a few just in case!

The only downfall is that this test MUST be presented to the lab within 30 minutes and be kept warm (held next your body)! My husband and I had to do this three times- once we weren’t told to preregister at the hospital and it ended up that the test hadn’t reached the lab in time. The second time we got a low count because my husband was slightly ill and the the third time was through a reproductive endocrinologist and we had to get a hotel so we could get to the office in time!

The thing about this test is that its really unbelievable how much a man’s fertility can fluctuate in a given month or two. If they are stressed, sick, wearing too tight of clothing, etc. they can get a low count! So if you do get a low count on the first time- don’t be devastated- repeat the test- your husband could be fighting a virus or something and not even know it! God Bless!

 

[liliana51886]

Thank you both for replying.
Kiwi, thank you for sharing. That IS actually what I was asking about, and wanted to know about what and acceptable method of collection would be. I just wasn’t sure how to word it. So thank you for sharing.

 

[Callen]

My husband and I are struggling with male factor infertility issues.

Given my age and how long we’ve been trying to conceive I am now at a point where I realize that the chance of having a child is pretty much nil.

First of all I want to state that I am not trying to dispute Church teaching - I am having a hard time coming to terms with the following.

I understand that the Church requires that any attempts to conceive a child must be both unitive and procreative.

Artificial reproductive techniques such as invitro fertilization, the use of donor sperm/eggs, embryo adoption, surrogacy etc, are against Church teaching and appear to me to be obviously morally wrong and unacceptable.

Artificial insemination with the husband’s sperm(by obtaining the sample with a perforated condom) is also against Church teaching due to the fact that the act is not unitive.

Most of time I accept the Church’s teaching on this, however sometimes when I’m particulary heartbroken about my childlessness I question why the Church allows other medical procedures that seem to be more extreme/invasive and against natural law.

Specifically organ transplants, blood transfusions, feeding tubes, chemotherapy and radiation treatment are all allowed if not required.

Infertility is the body not working properly - artificial insemination with the husband’s sperm properly obtained is a medical technique geared to help improve the chances of conception. I just do not see what is wrong with it.

Infertility/childlessness is such a bitter pill to swallow - I worry that it’s not something I will ever be “over”.

Can anyone explain to me why artificial insemination is so wrong - perhaps if it were explained to me in more detail I would be able to accept it.

 

[Dj87]

Yes Callen, Infertility is a very hard pill to swallow. I felt the way you are feeling so many times in my life.

When I was young the only thing that mattered to me was becoming a father. It was all I ever wanted was to have a wife and children. I never knew then how truly difficult this dream would be. If you read my previous post in this thread you will get the jist of the whole story and there were many times that I thought I’d do whatever it took to have a child even if it goes beyond what the church says and teaches. I became so bitter and disenchanted with the church that I did indeed leave the church for more than a decade or so.

I couldn’t grasp how people could just have child after child some by my reckoning at least in my brother’s case with no way to really care for them and I wanted children so badly and couldn’t. How was that just? Why would God do this to me?

Sex had to be procreative and unitive, yet while my wife and I were trying to conceive we were more complete and unified with other on every level than most people ever are.

When I was in high school, I ws brutally hazed for my physical appearance. Part of my body didn’t work and I didn’t produce any testosterone. Boys were very cruel to me teasing me relentlessly for locker room stuff. As the news of my lack of endowments made their way to the general population of the school, girls joined in in this horrible abuse. I was humiliated and had no self esteem in anything I did. I was terrified of talking with anybody and did my utter best to hide in the woodwork avoiding any possibility of befriending anyone. How could God do this to me I’d think. Was I his idea of a joke? It made no sense at all and I became angry over it.

Now with the memories of that pain decades in the past, and me finally being the Dad I so wanted to be, I have realized one thing. From that horrible experience I became a very caring, sensitive, and protective father. There is not one day that goes by that I don’t thank God for the wonderful gifts he has given me in the form of my wife and son and there is not a second that passes through my day that I don’t realize how truly important they are to me. My happiness is just being with them, I don’t have to be doing anything just being with them. I believe God chose to put me through that to make me the man I am today.

So many times in my life, I wished for a pill that would make me normal and allow me to pass over the difficult things but what I now realize is that it’s the difficult things that make you the person that you are. Remember this when your are in despair over things.

Fertility treatments ant controversial because there are so many morals involved. The doctor literally tries to be God and produce the perfect embryo and implant it in the perfect place to produce the perfect baby. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn’t. The essence of life is a kiss from God science can’t create that no matter what it can do to a sperm and an egg. The love of two people produce a gift from God. Two people love each other so much and God becomes so happy that he gives them a baby. That baby is a walking. talking, crying, expression of God’s love for a couple. That’s why the church is so specific in its teaching about what is right and what is wrong. Because like all of the sacraments, baptism, marriage, holy orders etc a child is a direct gift from God. That’s why it is so serious of issue for the church and every devout Catholic. That is why abortion is such a sickening abomination.

I know this does very little to comfort you and I’m sorry for rambling, but remember the experience of trying to conceive whether you succeed or not is having a profound effect on you as a person. You are becoming a better more loving person wether you think so or not. Never give up in your life or in your prayers. The fulfillment you seek will be given you in one form or another. I guarantee it!!!

God Bless

 

[Kiwi11]

Callen,

Just been thinking about your post- and I myself understand your questions…The acts of giving something of oneself to another to restore life (blood transfusions, organ transplants). So I understand what you are questioning. You said you understood church teaching about sexual intercourse is to be unitive and procreative. So I question you- how is artificial insemination unitive? In Mark 10:9 it says- “Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” Dr’s have separated the act of love from the act of procreation. Lets say you do take the sperm from a perforated condom during intercourse and have the Dr’s inject it into the uterus later …we have then separated love from procreation! I am also thinking of the differences of blood transfusions, feeding tubes, organ transplants- these things are meant to restore life already created whereas artificial insemination acts to create life- it does nothing to restore the health of a man with a low sperm count.

These are just my thoughts- and I’m sure I may be wrong on something. I understand completely with how you feel with not having children. It breaks my heart daily- I also wonder if I will ever “get over it”. I honestly don’t think it will be something I ever will. But I pray for healing- of heart and body. Thinking of last Sunday’s readings about how we are given hardships to train us to be better disciples- to prepare us for what is to come. God has a plan in this, even if we can’t see it. There is a bigger picture here! And as awful as this sounds- be thankful for the sorrow- it is through this that we come out stronger! Trust in the Lord’s goodness- he has a plan for you! And He is molding you to be the person He needs in this world to carry out His work. I’m not trying to sound preachy- but as I have struggled with not having children I HAVE to believe that there is a reason. I HAVE to have faith and trust that there is something better coming. God Bless, Callen.

 

[Amber2]

Hi everybody.
Now we have been trying for 3,3 years. I started my career with an ectopic pregnancy. I have hormonal problems and a bit of endometriosis. Having a baby has constantly been on my mind these 3 years and I have cried many times. I really wish that I would be able to forget about it but there always seems to be this thought that if I just do this or that then maybe… I have been dieting, I was in NaPro for a while and would start it again after Christmas if nothing happens. Right now I am trying something called Vitex agnus castus plus eating very healthy. I decided to really try this out (fertilityblend) because for the first time in 3 years a few weeks ago I had a positive pregnancy test. The pregnancy however ended in a miscarriage. When that happened I felt that I really might end up with a baby after all. I also had a priest pray for my husband some months ago, and the priest had this inspiration that we are trying to have a child and to pray for us. That gave me very much hope and faith because I thought to myself that the Holy Spirit would not give such an inspiration and then not plan to bless us. I hope so much but I am also afraid. Of wasting my life dreaming about something that does not exist.
How do you get to that point where you are able to say that enough is enough???
Thank you for all your stories. Amber

 

[kevinsgirl]

Hi everybody.
Now we have been trying for 3,3 years. I started my career with an ectopic pregnancy. I have hormonal problems and a bit of endometriosis. Having a baby has constantly been on my mind these 3 years and I have cried many times. I really wish that I would be able to forget about it but there always seems to be this thought that if I just do this or that then maybe… I have been dieting, I was in NaPro for a while and would start it again after Christmas if nothing happens. Right now I am trying something called Vitex agnus castus plus eating very healthy. I decided to really try this out (fertilityblend) because for the first time in 3 years a few weeks ago I had a positive pregnancy test. The pregnancy however ended in a miscarriage. When that happened I felt that I really might end up with a baby after all. I also had a priest pray for my husband some months ago, and the priest had this inspiration that we are trying to have a child and to pray for us. That gave me very much hope and faith because I thought to myself that the Holy Spirit would not give such an inspiration and then not plan to bless us. I hope so much but I am also afraid. Of wasting my life dreaming about something that does not exist.
How do you get to that point where you are able to say that enough is enough???
Thank you for all your stories. Amber

Amber, I’m so sorry for your recent loss. We haven’t gotten to the point that enough is enough. If something doesn’t change for us I know we will reach that point eventually but we haven’t reached it yet. DH and I ask ourselves if we are hurting our marriage or family life through continuing to try to have more children. When we answer yes to that question, we’ll stop but not before. DD was born after 2 miscarriages and 16 months trying to conceive and I have not given up hope that we will have more children.

KG

 

[Amber2]

Dear Kevinsgirl

Thank you for your reply. We haven´t given up yet either. Maybe it is just the hope that is playing trix with me but I feel somehow more optimistic now than I did for the last 3 years. You don’t have to be sorry for my loss. I am not since you can’t really loose something you never had. I only found out I was (had been) pregnant but my body was constantly telling me that it was already over. And it obviously was. I had no feeling of connection with any person in there this time or a sense of the gender or name, so… I actually don’t think about it.
Now I am going to try out a product called fertilityblend. Have you heard about it, it seems quite amazing?
I have this feeling that I am not a person who can just sit back and let go of this dream. I wonder how people do that. How old is your son?
I wish you all the best…
Amber (the dreamer)

 

[user3856530]

The IVF mentality is just the opposite end of the same extreme. It also says, “I won’t work within your design.” I discovered that about myself. My thinking often swung between contraceptive thinking to IVF thinking. I had decided what was best for me, and God was going to fill my quota no matter what! “I want a baby now, I don’t want a baby now, and you better deliver!”

IVF certainly is not saying ‘I will not work within God’s design’.
Only God can create babies. God creates babies through IVF, not man. Any other explanation, in my opinion, is sacrilegious.

What does ‘God’s Design’ mean anyway? Which of the following is God’s design?

• Intensive farming and Fertilisers
• Gay people
• Clothes

We went through IVF. I didn’t even realise that IVF was against Catholic doctrine until we were half way through. We didn’t murder any embryos, all our (few) embryos were used. None were frozen.

I suppose I’m no longer a Catholic.

People who are infertile, and are not doing IVF because of religion, should really consider who makes up Catholic doctrine, because it’s not divine.

 

[LittleDeb]

IVF certainly is not saying ‘I will not work within God’s design’.
Only God can create babies. God creates babies through IVF, not man. Any other explanation, in my opinion, is sacrilegious.

What does ‘God’s Design’ mean anyway? Which of the following is God’s design?

• Intensive farming and Fertilisers
• Gay people
• Clothes

We went through IVF. I didn’t even realise that IVF was against Catholic doctrine until we were half way through. We didn’t murder any embryos, all our (few) embryos were used. None were frozen.

I suppose I’m no longer a Catholic.

People who are infertile, and are not doing IVF because of religion, should really consider who makes up Catholic doctrine, because it’s not divine.

I’ve been out having surgery so I haven’t been logging in. Sorry I missed this until now. Since I am being quoted, I feel it natural that I should respond.

I’m not sure if your questions are rhetorical so I will address them briefly. The examples cited are pretty standard, often easily refuted arguments. Since the topics they concern are always different and the same tired arguments are used, it does become redundant. It is commonly known as a “red herring.” The most basic answer is that there is a difference between God’s deliberate will and God’s permissive will. The former is what He *desires *for us, the latter is what He *allows *us to do. (The latter is always to our detriment.) He will let us be as stupid and as sinful as we would like. It doesn’t mean we are following His design.

One thing I can make very clear right away is I am against playing God in all its forms. I constantly remind people who chart fertility and even those who don’t that just because you know you *can *conceive or know that you *cannot *doesn’t make your actions always right. A couple in marital strife who keeps having sex because “having a baby will fix what’s broken” has not brought about God’s will. Yes, they might conceive, and yes, that child will be a perfect creation (because God is just plain, pure good that way,) but the circumstances of the conception was God’s permissive will, not his deliberate will.

Now some say, “How dare you say my child was not deliberately created by God!” I would agree with that statement. Every single child is deliberately created. And what our beautiful Catholic doctrine makes clear is that not every circumstance of conception is the deliberate will of God. A child of rape is a deliberate creation. The rape was a sin. A child of fornication is a deliberate creation. The fornication was a sin. A child of IVF is a deliberate creation. The IVF was a sin. All of those children are deliberate. They cannot be aborted.

And what is so amazing about God and what we are aware of through Catholic teaching, is that ***if ***we follow His will and use His design correctly, He will bring about those deliberate conceptions without sin! That is the good news that I was writing about in what was quoted. If we follow God’s design He will bring about those children. Those same children! He has a way in HIS perfect design that every child of fornication can be born in marriage. The parents just refused God’s design!

In God’s design the would-be rapist instead lives a holy and beautiful life, marries his would-be victim, conceives a child, dies a saintly death, and the mother goes on to marry her next saintly husband and has the rest of her family.

In God’s design the body is healed naturally because the would-be IVF couple has freely chosen God’s way of prayer and humility and conceived naturally, using medical science according to His design. Because seriously, honestly think about that. If sinful man could bring about a conception, God would have anyway if we had just followed Him. And He doesn’t charge $10,000 a pop!! His conceptions are FREE!

Because just like I said in the quoted section, I wanted a baby and I wanted it on my terms. In the end, as I conformed my will to His, His time frame *became *my time frame. He desired the conception of my kids exactly when they were conceived. I could have forced my will and brought about the conceptions through IVF. I didn’t. I did it His way. I appreciate my children as being true GIFTS from God. He didn’t just permit me to take them. He deliberately *gave *them to me, freely. What precious gifts they are!!

 

[user3856530]

LittleDeb, thank you for taking the time to reply. I appreciate your response and found it thought provoking. Please don’t feel obliged to respond, although I’m glad you did respond to my first post.

Since discovering the Catholic stance on IVF, I have found myself quite unsettled. I was brought up and spent all of my life as a Catholic and most of it practising. At the moment, I am having a bout of cognitive dissonance. I simply do not believe I have sinned in the eyes of God by undertaking IVF. I understand that it’s against the rules of the club, so for me, the solution is to leave the club.

Unless I have misunderstood, it sounds from your post as if you believe people opt to have IVF, because for some reason they do not want to wait to conceive ‘naturally’. I opted for IVF because God gave me free will. In His infinite wisdom, He also gave intelligence and skill to the medical staff to undertake this procedure. We had been trying to have a baby for years, but it just was not working. Neither of us was getting any younger, so IVF was a last chance. The odds of us being able to adopt is slim to non-existent. We know of a couple who have been trying to adopt for 7-8 years and have spent thousands on it (far, far more than we spent on IVF). They still do not have a child.

In your post you have split Free Will into two categories: God’s deliberate will (what He Desires) and God’s permissive will (what He allows). I believe free will is discrete. Either it’s true free will, or it isn’t. There are no grey areas or categories of free will.

How does the Catholic Church know that IVF is a sin? The procedure was only invented in the 1970s, so when was this decision made? How can an organisation determine God’s desire to such a degree of accuracy?

What makes IVF a sin? Is taking fertility drugs also a sin?

The joy we have received so far through IVF, could only have come from the Lord. I really feel like I’ve seen the true light in the last few weeks, and the truth really does set you free.