Infertility

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ferdinand_Mary
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
I also find it strange to use the words: gift and blessing about infertility. However, as well as for all other adversities and suffering in this life, if we embrace it and trust God through it and make the best of it, it can become like a prayer/blessing for us and others. In mysterious ways. Otherwise suffeing would have no meaning. And that can not be the case. I think that most infertile couples are called to adoption or other great causes.

God bless you guys,
Amber
 
Hi:

Thanks for your post. In thinking on your dilemma, I wondered if the comparatively (smaller) country size and flexibility of the EU might mean you can do fertility work in one country and start adoption in a nearby state (say, Spain and France, or Germany and Poland, or something?) Or are medical records linked all across member states? I do not know how far European integration is going, but as I feel the Euro project was doomed from the start, you may start to see (as it unravels over the next decade) member states leaving the union, and thus (potentially) offering free areas to pursue these resources.

In the meantime, I hope your diet brings success, and I’ll keep praying for you. I think I prefer your usage of the term “like a blessing”, because if it really is a blessing, I sure wouldn’t wish it on anyone! I find Catholic doctrine on suffering, frankly, rather idealistic…I don’t really think it adequately addresses the devastating losses some people experience. Pope John Paul II wrote an interesting letter of human suffering called Salvifici Doloris in 1984, it is here:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_11021984_salvifici-doloris_en.html

The argument seems to be that by suffering we unite ourselves to Christ, and that the reason suffering exists is "to release love, in order to give birth to works of love towards neighbour, in order to transform the whole of human civilization into a “civilization of love”. Again, this is a very noble sentiment, but I wonder how often this really happens when someone experiences deep loss (such as the loss of our unborn children). I can speak of my own case. The deaths of our children led to my wife’s mental breakdown, and entry to a psychiatric hospital…it literally drove her mad.

I suppose it did draw us closer together as a couple by the end of it all, but after thinking on it a long time, I can’t really see any way it helped my neighbour, or contributed to love in the world. If anything, it made me more pessimistic, I think; less charitable, less optimistic, less helpful. To this day, I feel like an outsider in the Church…every week at Mass we are surrounded by families with children, and everything…and I mean everything…is couched in the model of father and son, mother and child. We are “matter out of place”, but we have to endure, because there’s nowhere else to go.

If this view of suffering and pain is true, then the more suffering you endure, the more love you will give to your neighbour, and the more you will build a loving civilization. So I thought about those that endure epic collective suffering…the Jews of the Holocaust, say, or the Irish Great Hunger, the Medieval Black Death, or the Ukrainian Holdomor. I can’t imagine applying such a “civilization of love” model to their cases; it seems too horrible to even contemplate. I think the true test is to say to ourselves, would we tell them their suffering was worthwhile or noble, because it helped them to become more loving, or gave them grace, or brought them together, or contributed love to the world? And if not, why not?

It may well be that John Paul II is writing an ideal treatise for an ideal world. But the experience of my senses tell me that I live in a Hobbesian world where life is frequently solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short, and frankly, I could use a more practical guide for the real world we have no choice but to live in. Maybe it has been already written, I just haven’t seen it yet. I hope adoption works for you; it’s impossible for me.

Jacques
 
Dear Jacques
Why is adoption not a possibility for you and your wife? Are you too old? I am very sorry to hear about your losses. I can’t even imagine how terrible it must be to loose your children. I can easily however, imagine how the loss could drive your wife crazy. I have sometimes felt quite bad psychologically because of this infertility mess. We also live in a place full of Catholic Families. I sometimes told my husband that I don’t want to keep living there in “Family World” if we don’t have children. The rest of society is more anti-children so it is easier to live there some times. As for your points about suffering I agree. But I have to say I find the Church’s teaching quite mystical and I can’t make any claims about it because I simply often fail to understand it. However, I can say that I don’t always think that it fits in with the Biblical stories. Here Jesus did not come to bless people with illness but he HEALED. Some times it says that he healed every one. In the Bible fruitfulness is also called a blessing. Not being fruitful is a sad and even shameful state it seems. And even the Father of all the faithful, Abraham, seemed very very sad that he did not have any children. In my view God’s will for us is to live in peace and happiness. And when we are syuffering it is due to sin in us and the world. But this is not God’s intention. We can then trust that He takes caree of us and that if we surrender to Him our act of faith will praise Him and in turn it may bring healing to others in mystical ways.

I wish you and your wife all the best

Amber PS You have to live in a country to adopt there. That is a rule everywhere.
 
Hi Amber:

I wish you all the best too. We are now too old to adopt; when we were younger, we were ineligible because of her hospitalization. The adoption agencies don’t look too favourably on psychiatric difficulties with the parents, I suppose. Can’t say I blame them. They want what’s best for the kids, not for us.

Her sister is younger, and is fertile (she has two kids that we often visit). She has offered to carry a child for us (I call that the “nuclear option”; it’s the one you look at when there’s just no other way). It would face a minefield of moral and ethical difficulties (she’s not Catholic, and sees little problem with it), but as she ages, that option will close off as well. And that will be the end of the line for us, I’m afraid. I am concerned that this option may become more tempting in the future, as she is having financial problems (too much mortgage debt, like nearly everyone else in Canada); we, on the other hand, through a minimalist lifestyle and no children of our own, have enough extra money to easily pay for such a “surrogacy” and pull them out of debt. This sort of arrangement was quite common in Biblical times; many families in the Old Testament resorted to this when they had problems. Of course today it is not permitted; as far as I know it only occurs (informally) in non-Christian religions here (such as the Muslim faith), or the polygamous Mormons of Bountiful, British Columbia.

You are right that the Bible views infertility in a very harsh light indeed. Exodus 23 tells us that if a nation disobeys God, He will punish their women with sterility and barrenness; and in Gilgal, a place of idolatry, Hosea (9:14-15) writes,

Give them, O LORD; what will you give them?
Give them wombs that miscarry and breasts that are dry.

Because of all their wickedness in Gilgal, I hated them there.
Because of their sinful deeds, I will drive them out of my house.
I will no longer love them;all their leaders are rebellious.

For the individual woman, things weren’t so bad. Of the 7 women I know of in the Old Testament that were barren, all were inconsolate. Some claimed they would die if the weren’t given children. God helped 6 of the 7 ultimately become pregnant, one through a method suspiciously close to the polygamistic system I outlined above. Thomas Aquinas I think reached pretty much the same position when he thought through all of this:

“In Aquinas’ Summa against the Gentiles, he developed his thought on the “three ends of marriage,” later on to be taught as Catholic teaching on marriage. The test end is the bringing forth and the education of children. The second end is the common life enjoyed by the spouses. The third end is the sacramental sign given by the fidelity of one man to one woman. The last end, he said, was distinctly Christian. Of the three ends, only the third is ruled out by polygamy. The primary end is not compromised at all. So according to Aquinas, although monogamy was the optimal form of marriage, polygamy was not intrinsically evil.”

whatdidthomasaquinassayaboutpollygamy.blogspot.com/

I’m not sure what I think of this line of reasoning. It sounds good, but like everything else, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is.

Take care and God Bless

Jacques
 
Hi Guys:

Not to suffer from “thread drift” 🙂 I thought it might be worthy to post the original of Aquinas’ thoughts on this topic (a primary source), as opposed to summary of them (a secondary source). They come not just from the Summa Contra Gentiles, but also from the Summa Theologica, Supplement, Question 65:

newadvent.org/summa/5065.htm

The pull quote is here:

“Now marriage has for its principal end the begetting and rearing of children, and this end is competent to man according to his generic nature, wherefore it is common to other animals (Ethic. viii, 12), and thus it is that the “offspring” is assigned as a marriage good. But for its secondary end, as the Philosopher says (Ethic. viii, 12), it has, among men alone, the community of works that are a necessity of life, as stated above (Question 41, Article 1). And in reference to this they owe one another “fidelity” which is one of the goods of marriage. Furthermore it has another end, as regards marriage between believers, namely the signification of Christ and the Church: and thus the “sacrament” is said to be a marriage good. Wherefore the first end corresponds to the marriage of man inasmuch as he is an animal: the second, inasmuch as he is a man; the third, inasmuch as he is a believer. Accordingly plurality of wives neither wholly destroys nor in any way hinders the first end of marriage, since one man is sufficient to get children of several wives, and to rear the children born of them. But though it does not wholly destroy the second end, it hinders it considerably for there cannot easily be peace in a family where several wives are joined to one husband, since one husband cannot suffice to satisfy the requisitions of several wives, and again because the sharing of several in one occupation is a cause of strife: thus “potters quarrel with one another” [Aristotle, Rhet. ii, 4, and in like manner the several wives of one husband. [COLOR=“Red”]The third end, it removes altogether, because as Christ is one, so also is the Church one”

As I said, I’m not sure what to make of all of this. It is evident that Aquinas is uncomfortable with the fact that Old Testament Patriarchs often took additional wives, particularly if one was infertile; so he concludes that is it sometimes in accord with natural law, sometimes against it. As I said above, I think the idea is a sort of “desperation ploy”; what you come up with when all other options fail. My wife and her sister hatched this plan a few months ago, but did not mention it to me until now (the Christmas season).

I can understand why they came up with it (my wife wants to be a mom and her sister needs the money), but I don’t think I could go through with it, no matter how desperate we are. My wife thinks it might just be GIFT (Gamete Inta Fallopian Transfer) by third party. I don’t know.

usccb.org/prolife/issues/nfp/treatment.htm

Jacques
 
Hi Jacques
I have been praying for you and your wife. I have to admit that althought I too well understand your grief and desperation your use of Aquinas makes me rather uncomfortable. Any sound christian husband (and wife) would be against such thoughts. It is not thoughts that any woman would really want to accept. Marriage is for one woman and one man and your common fertility or infertility is something you share and need to come to terms with in ways that put the love for your wife and marriage first.
I want to send you the title of a book I have read: “To full Term” I bought it in a book store in the States for very few money but it might have something for you and your wife. The author writes about interesting tests and help for infertile or couples with recurrent miscarriage. Otherwise there is also the NaProTechnology. I also will recommend you to go to Carismatic Christians or priests. They often have a gift to pray for healing and they also, according to my experience have a gift to renew your faith in Jesus Christ in a way that makes you experience that at the end of the day HE IS OUR PURPOSE. A great comfort.
I wish all the best for you and your wife.
Amber
 
tjs said:
Wow, thanks for reading all that for us Jacques! I do not have the patience to go through all those pages and would probably end up stopping every time I hit an IVF discussion blowout.

I also read your post at the suggestions thread. Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut. It is disturbing to think that well, since the Church Fathers believe the main purpose of marriage is procreation there may be some out there who feel there’s no reason to be married then if you can’t procreate. However, I think we have to look carefully at those Church teachings and see if the terms concerning “procreation” may also encompass adoption. And even if that does not apply, it is just very hard for me to think that some out there would believe such a thing to be evil or against Church teachings, i.e. to be married and unable to raise children. We cannot possibly understand all of God’s ways and this is one of those instances I think where our mere mortal understanding of life fails us. But God does have a plan, I am certain of that. He designed as all exactly as we are. Thus, the particular status of our child-rearing capabilities must be part of some great plan, part of the tapestry of which we can only glimpse pieces.

It is very disturbing to me that there are some (many?) in this world who believe that if you cannot bear children naturally, well then you just weren’t meant to have children and should just give up, i.e. implying that we would probably make terrible parents which is why God designed us this way (!). No kidding I have read this in other places on the internet. Perhaps a minority sentiment of the general populous but still very hurtful.

The article I reposted in an earlier post I think sheds great light on the concept that this status of ours can be considered a blessing in many ways. I really like the way it outlines those ways in which this condition may be seen as a blessing within the Church. It is the veritable “silver lining” that we must look at, the attempt to distinguish what God’s plan is for us in light of our situations and surroundings.

I wonder why the mods turned the idea down in the past and I wonder if the request was couched in similar terms. In any case, things change, mods change, mission statements change, etc. So we’ll see I guess. Maybe this time might be different. Meanwhile, with this information you provided, I am going to cast about the net to search for other “homes” with the fear that perhaps we will meet with the same outcome with our proposal, i.e. the mods will disagree with our proposal.

Peace,
TJ
Click to expand...
Infertility is not a reason to not allow marriage, one may certainly have a marriage when it is apparent that they or their spouse is infertal. Look at Zacheria & Elizabeth, for instance, among many more. And how much would the Lord bless then?

There is only one case where a marriage would typically not be allowed, with out some sort of canonical dispensation. That would be in the case of castration, or a medical disfunction in this area (not infertility). On can not enter into a marriage in this particular state, again because of the primacy of procreation.

I know it may seem like the line is blurry, but I would suggest you look at it like this. With apparent infertility, you never know… There could be conception. With a castration… Well with out a visible, easy to verify miricle there is no chance of sharing the marital act, and certianly no chance of having a child naturally. In this case, there is a canonical roadblock towards marriage.

God bless,

P.S. As one can not undo what is already done, if this would be the case later on in marriage it wouldn’t some how nullify that which already exists.
 
Amber2 said:
Hi Jacques
I have been praying for you and your wife. I have to admit that althought I too well understand your grief and desperation your use of Aquinas makes me rather uncomfortable. Any sound christian husband (and wife) would be against such thoughts. It is not thoughts that any woman would really want to accept. Marriage is for one woman and one man and your common fertility or infertility is something you share and need to come to terms with in ways that put the love for your wife and marriage first.
I want to send you the title of a book I have read: “To full Term” I bought it in a book store in the States for very few money but it might have something for you and your wife. The author writes about interesting tests and help for infertile or couples with recurrent miscarriage. Otherwise there is also the NaProTechnology. I also will recommend you to go to Carismatic Christians or priests. They often have a gift to pray for healing and they also, according to my experience have a gift to renew your faith in Jesus Christ in a way that makes you experience that at the end of the day HE IS OUR PURPOSE. A great comfort.
I wish all the best for you and your wife.

Amber
Click to expand...
Hi Amber:

I have been praying for you as well. Thank you very much for your recommendation…I will have a look at this book (To Full Term: A Mother’s Triumph Over Miscarriage, by Darci Klein). For those interested besides myself, here is the ordering info:

amazon.com/Full-Term-Mothers-Triumph-Miscarriage/dp/0425215873

I am sorry you are uncomfortable with my thoughts…bear in mind, they are only thoughts, and not actions, and indeed I don’t even know if I have the capability of turning thought into act, let alone the willingness (my wife and her sister cooked up this scheme, but I don’t know if I can do it). It is worth pointing out that I am a convert (of some few decades now), so yes, there was a time when I was not Catholic, and yes, I can see how some might think I’m not a particularly good Christian husband based on what I say, so my apologies for that. I would be the first to admit that I’m pretty lousy at it, but I’ll keep trying to get better.

I wouldn’t say I’m in favour of this idea, no…but I’m not hard against it yet either. It’s rather difficult to say no, I suppose, when you are desperate and your wife “makes you an offer you can’t refuse”, as it were. I guess I am undecided, and do not know what to do. So I will have a look at your reference. Thanks again.

Jacques
 
Jacques–

Have you considered “snowflake adoption”? Basically it’s when a coupon adopts a leftover embryo from an IVF procedure. The Church is hesitant to approve of it but hasn’t officially ruled against it either since the couple doing the adopting haven’t chosen to destroy life or create life contrary to Church teaching.

It may be worth looking into.

KG
 
I admit I have not read the entire thread here yet, but am posting primarily to mark it for my own reference and a reminder to catch up. My husband and I have been struggling with infertility for a little over three years now and, as I learn more about Catholicism, I do begin to wonder if it has been a matter of God knowing when things will be set right for a future family. However, at 31, it does become a major concern. I know at least that I am guilty of uncharitable feelings whenever I hear that someone else is expecting. As a partial introduction, I also think this may have been a lesson to bring me around from what was essentially an atheist, pro-choice viewpoint to an understanding of the sanctity of life from conception to natural death. So far, it’s been QUITE a lesson.

Anyway, I will try to read the entire thread before posting more.
 
fieldsparrow said:
I admit I have not read the entire thread here yet, but am posting primarily to mark it for my own reference and a reminder to catch up. My husband and I have been struggling with infertility for a little over three years now and, as I learn more about Catholicism, I do begin to wonder if it has been a matter of God knowing when things will be set right for a future family. However, at 31, it does become a major concern. I know at least that I am guilty of uncharitable feelings whenever I hear that someone else is expecting. As a partial introduction, I also think this may have been a lesson to bring me around from what was essentially an atheist, pro-choice viewpoint to an understanding of the sanctity of life from conception to natural death. So far, it’s been QUITE a lesson.

Anyway, I will try to read the entire thread before posting more.
Click to expand...
fieldsparrow, welcome home and yes god works in mysterious ways… But then, he is the perfect judge of mind and heart, he knows how to get us to come around! lol. I would say, have faith that what God has in planned your you and your husband is going to be for the best.

If fully natural conception ends up being impossible for you, you might also consider either traditional adoption, or as another poster points out currently so called “snow flake” adoptions are also an option.

God bless,
 
Hi there
Kevins Girl. I just read a bit about embryo adoption. I find it an interesting option. From a moral point of wiev I find that if we are pro-life we can only want for all children to have the chance of life. And gosh I am so desperate to become a mother. I read about options in Spain (I live in Europe) and what struck me was that it was quite expensive (althought it is presented as cheap) but the succes rates are not that bad either.
Do anyone in here have more knowledge of this, know of a cheap but ethic clinic or know anyone who have done it? (Snowflake is tooooo expensive for us plus we live in Europe)
I wish I would just meet some person who was very rich and would pay it all:newidea:
God Bless you,
Anni
 
I would encourage you to seek out the parents of this child you’d be adopting, and encourage them to take him back, before you claim him as your own, since every child has the right to be born of his own parents.

If the child’s been abandoned in the embryonic stage and his parents hate him (will have nothing to do with him), then I suppose the course is clear for such adoption … as long as we recall that God is the author of life, and not engage in the hubris of thinking that we control it … (So the operation may fail and the embryo may die, right? Would you be bitter in that case, having spent that money sending that child to God, rather than into your family?)
 
ethereality said:
I would encourage you to seek out the parents of this child you’d be adopting, and encourage them to take him back, before you claim him as your own, since every child has the right to be born of his own parents.

If the child’s been abandoned in the embryonic stage and his parents hate him (will have nothing to do with him), then I suppose the course is clear for such adoption … as long as we recall that God is the author of life, and not engage in the hubris of thinking that we control it … (So the operation may fail and the embryo may die, right? Would you be bitter in that case, having spent that money sending that child to God, rather than into your family?)
Click to expand...
That’s an interesting suggestion… However I think you made a slight error. You see, keeping this embryo froze is (typically, certainly not in the states) free to the “parents” who made it. Typically the way it works is this, a couple decides on invitro, then many many embryo’s are made for implantation. In small numbers (one or two) they are implanted, to see which one “takes”. When one takes, and the child is born, the couple who ordered these embryo’s be made have a choice:
  1. Cut all economic ties, and the embryo’s are destroyed
  2. Supprisingly common, the parents feel too guilty about just letting the embryo’s be destroyed and continue paying for propetiual cryogenic freeze in hopes maybe someone might adopt them or some other solution be found.
So I guess I kind of see where your logic was, howeve this is typically not a case of the “natural” (rather, unnatural) parents not knowing these embryo’s exist by any stretch. Quite the opposite. So there’s no need to contact these people, they’ve already done what they’ve done. They’ll probably be thankful the embryo will have a chance to develope.
 
I have not posted here in a long time.

I have a question. I have been infertile now for about 10 years. I thought I had a grib on the pain of this cross, but right now I have missed a period (I am a almost 15 days late.) I have taken two pregnancy test (home) and they are both negative.

I really have not told my DH or anyone else. My sister just had a baby this past weekend. And as silly as this sound I am very happy for her but very very heartbroken for myself. Please send out prayers for me today that I may over come my over whelming sense of saddness and aloneness right.
 
…
O Sacred Heart of Jesus, I have asked you for many favors but I plead for this one. Take it, place it in your open, broken Heart, and when the Eternal Father sees it covered with the mantle of your most Precious Blood, he will not refuse it. It is not my prayer, but yours. O Sacred Heart of Jesus, I place all my trust in you.
…
:hug1:
 
crazzeto said:
So I guess I kind of see where your logic was, howeve this is typically not a case of the “natural” (rather, unnatural) parents not knowing these embryo’s exist by any stretch. Quite the opposite. So there’s no need to contact these people, they’ve already done what they’ve done. They’ll probably be thankful the embryo will have a chance to develope.
Click to expand...
Those looking to adopt should be encouraging the embryos’ parents to take back the children they have abandoned, and impress upon them the obligation they have to raise these children as these children have the right to their natural parents. I think it’s a straightforward concept.

I understand you’re saying that “it’s safe to assume that these parents don’t want them”, but I’m saying that we must do what we can to rectify this evil – talk to them because of this fact – before taking “the next-best approach”. It is better for their own parents to take them rather than someone else take them, and so we must try to get their own parents to take them before taking them ourselves.
 
ethereality said:
Those looking to adopt should be encouraging the embryos’ parents to take back the children they have abandoned, and impress upon them the obligation they have to raise these children as these children have the right to their natural parents. I think it’s a straightforward concept.

I understand you’re saying that “it’s safe to assume that these parents don’t want them”, but I’m saying that we must do what we can to rectify this evil – talk to them because of this fact – before taking “the next-best approach”. It is better for their own parents to take them rather than someone else take them, and so we must try to get their own parents to take them before taking them ourselves.
Click to expand...
Again, that’s an interesting stance but I’m not sure that this is a valid way to “rectify evil”. I am however merely a layman, so perhaps there are aspects I haven’t considered. But based upon my knowlege of the moral teaching, I really can’t think of any specific reason why this should be done.

Obviously the parents have some sense of moral obligation, they’re paying to keep these embryo’s frozen rather than just letting them be disposed of (all too common). And in a certain sense, petitioning them to do as you ask, is petitioning them to continue walking the evil path they started on by them selves. Perhaps we need one of our resident forum priests to step in with an opinion on this matter?
 
Praying for you, st lucy, for comfort and peace. I know how hard it is to think you finally have a handle on it only to have it overtake you again. Peace be with you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top