Infertility

[anilorak13ska]

Hi onthisrock. I know your feedback is not unsolicited, though I did not post to ask for opinions of our decision, simply to mention it as part of our journey. I understand all the points you are making, but you (nor the higher up priest/bishop whoever you spoke with) are still not addressing the responsibility of Pro-Lifers to give these in-limbo human beings a chance at life. That’s the #1 problem I see with those against embryo adoption, that they simply do not address this point. So they’re nobody’s problem? Too bad someone conceived them this way?

Our embryo adoption was arranged directly with the donor family. We plan on an open adoption. It is perfectly on the up-and-up, so I don’t appreciate the insinuation that just bc we’re not going through the middleman agency that charges excess fees our adoption arrangement is anything other than legit. There are several different ways to go about it. What may or may not have happened to other embies in the process is really not the point, bc it’s too late for them. But it’s not too late for the ones we adopted.

I stand by my comparison to adopting a child conceived from rape. Our taking this child in is NOT supporting future rape. Preventing birth control and illicit fertility treatment is a separate issue, and non-Catholics/Christians will continue to do this regardless what we believe, leaving their “leftover” embryos to neither live nor die if someone doesn’t give them a chance at life.

 

[onthisrock]

Hi onthisrock. I know your feedback is not unsolicited, though I did not post to ask for opinions of our decision, simply to mention it as part of our journey. I understand all the points you are making, but you (nor the higher up priest/bishop whoever you spoke with) are still not addressing the responsibility of Pro-Lifers to give these in-limbo human beings a chance at life. That’s the #1 problem I see with those against embryo adoption, that they simply do not address this point. So they’re nobody’s problem? Too bad someone conceived them this way?

Our embryo adoption was arranged directly with the donor family. We plan on an open adoption. It is perfectly on the up-and-up, so I don’t appreciate the insinuation that just bc we’re not going through the middleman agency that charges excess fees our adoption arrangement is anything other than legit. There are several different ways to go about it. What may or may not have happened to other embies in the process is really not the point, bc it’s too late for them. But it’s not too late for the ones we adopted.

I stand by my comparison to adopting a child conceived from rape. Our taking this child in is NOT supporting future rape. Preventing birth control and illicit fertility treatment is a separate issue, and non-Catholics/Christians will continue to do this regardless what we believe, leaving their “leftover” embryos to neither live nor die if someone doesn’t give them a chance at life.

 

[onthisrock]

onthisrock:
I don’t know where you live…i only know the adoption laws in the US. Specifically CA. You hadn’t mentioned the snowflake program so i was worried you were not being protected legally. The middlman of sorts is a bit of a racket…but does insure babies are going home to safe families as with the legal and homestudy sections of adoption. I would love to find someone who just didn’t want their child…and deal with them personally with no lawyers(actually how my husband was adopted…but 42 years ago. I am glad you feel comfortable with yoir decision. And hope your baby is born healthy. I didn’t want this to be a fight. I was trying, as with most on this site to possibly give you information that you didn’t have. But you seem to have it how you want it to be. I was never trying to hurt you…so sorry if you took it that way. You were stating something about the Cburch that wasn’t true in terms of teachings. I didn’t just start writing with no thought. I made sure what the cburch taught by my contact and just relayed to you…as what your original post to me seemed to be one of a question to what if you were doing the right thing as you prefaced it with the churche’s unknown teachings of this subject. So sorry again for suggestions unwanted. I have myself been desperate and have had anger and depression over IF. I assumed the same onto you…and that was wrong of me…truly. Please accept my apology and have a blessed Easter

 

[anilorak13ska]

Onthisrock, no worries. As I mentioned, you’re the only person on here who’s disagreed in a civil manner. It’s hard not to get defensive even with civil people when you usually deal with people who like to hear themselves talk more than anything else

As for EA, I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree. Regarding what you said:

“You were stating something about the Church that wasn’t true in terms of teachings. I didn’t just start writing with no thought. I **made sure what the church taught by my contact **and just relayed to you”

We can go in circles here. I have my sources from the church, as do you, and for some reason, there isn’t a clear commonality we can agree on, since we are both referring to the authority of the church in our decision making.

I’m glad to have had this back and forth, though, bc I imagine I may be on the other side of the debate when the IF ministry takes off at our church. I’m sure there will be folks considering options such as IVF and as church reps, it’ll be a thin line for us to be supportive while at the same time presenting church teaching and reasoning behind said teaching.

As for the requirements for traditional adoption, oye, don’t even get me started on those! lol

 

[onthisrock]

Dear Kathleen,

What a wonderful pilgrimage! I am so glad that you went to St. Philomena’s shrine and were able to put your dream box near her altar. St. Philomena is such a dear saint. And, also strong. Can you imagine what she went up against with the executioners who tried several times to kill her? I try to say her chaplet every day.

Congratulations, also, on losing 10 lbs! That’s awesome. I’m sorry about the anti-depressant. I was on one for about 6 months some 12 years ago. I gained a little weight, but since I had no appetite, it was only a few pounds. Most of all, I disliked the lethargy that was a side effect. I knew I had to get off it immediately, but I didn’t want the suicidal thoughts coming back. So, what I did was taper it off very gradually. I cut the pills in quarters. I took 3/4 of a pill for a few weeks, then 1/2 a pill, then 1/4 and finally I didn’t miss it and was able to get on just fine without it. That was many years ago; long before I met my husband and began dealing with infertility. Now, I still get depressed - sometimes it hurts to breathe. But, it is manageable. There is no way that I will go back on those meds. This is not medical advice, just sharing my experience.

Good job explaining about embryo adoption. You said it very well. Children have the right to be conceived by a natural act of love between their parents. Here is a video which explains Church teaching in more depth.

As one who has been dealing with IF for more than 2 years (not long, I know), I have had the occasion to visit secular websites such as The Bump in hopes of discussing it with other ladies. That was a big mistake. The assumption is that every couple has a RIGHT to a child, regardless of the means. IVF is considered legitimate medical treatment, even by many people who call themselves Catholic. When I pointed to the place in the Catechism where it says otherwise, there were numerous Catholics who lined up to say that their …“grandmother goes to church every day and she has no problem with it” or linking some article that shows how the Church is out of touch. I have learned the hard way to stay away from these sites. They are poison.

Anyway, Kathleen, I am so glad that you have scheduled your surgery with Dr. Hilgers. I will keep you in my prayers. I, too, am a convert to the Catholic faith, from the Episcopal church. For myself, I am looking on some of this personal suffering as penance for my previous sinful lifestyle. I was raised to believe that contraception is good and, sadly, it took many years after my conversion to the Catholic faith, and one failed marriage, to realize that God wants us to lead a holy life and contraception has no part in that. The annulment process taught me this painful lesson as well. I’m not saying that God is punishing me with infertility because of my sins. But, there is the very hard reality that I am now 41 years old and it took me this long to see God’s plan for families. Yes, God can work miracles, but my age is a factor.

Last night, my husband and I consecrated our family to the Holy Family and made the enthronement of Sacred Scripture and hung a picture of the Holy Family on our wall. Here is the website, if anyone is interested.

Prayers for all.

Not sure if I told you, but I sent you a PM a couple days ago

 

[onthisrock]

Onthisrock, no worries. As I mentioned, you’re the only person on here who’s disagreed in a civil manner. It’s hard not to get defensive even with civil people when you usually deal with people who like to hear themselves talk more than anything else

As for EA, I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree. Regarding what you said:

“You were stating something about the Church that wasn’t true in terms of teachings. I didn’t just start writing with no thought. I **made sure what the church taught by my contact **and just relayed to you”

We can go in circles here. I have my sources from the church, as do you, and for some reason, there isn’t a clear commonality we can agree on, since we are both referring to the authority of the church in our decision making.

I’m glad to have had this back and forth, though, bc I imagine I may be on the other side of the debate when the IF ministry takes off at our church. I’m sure there will be folks considering options such as IVF and as church reps, it’ll be a thin line for us to be supportive while at the same time presenting church teaching and reasoning behind said teaching.

As for the requirements for traditional adoption, oye, don’t even get me started on those! lol

I have been tempted to actually go down to a Mexican hospital and see if I could do something similar to what my in-laws did. I ask my husband often…"don’t you want to know where you came from? what if you were actually kidnapped or something?..he says he doesn’t care if he was because he would rather have his life here than in Mexico, with a woman who apparently was a yearly regular to the hospital his parents found him in…all different fathers, and would leave some behind (how my hubby came to be) and some she would take home with no real reasoning behind it all…crazy huh? anyway some shady things happened, but at the border in the end his parents had a birth certificate with them as the bio parents (things were very different 42 yrs ago, but the crookedness of Mexico surely hasn’t changed). His parents are Mexican as he is, so it worked for them…SEE! I have been desperate! My father in law has actually offered to take woman who are pan handling with their babies to adopt them (with a lawyer and all)…We’ve all thought of it all. I just know my friends in high school NEVER saw a penny of the money that is required for the adoption price of $20-40K…It is such a racket. we were going to do foster care but backed out. It’s hard to care for your own, let alone an older child with a 100% chance of major problems. some people have the gift for this…we felt that unfortunately we weren’t given this gift. since my pilgrimage to St. Philomena’s shrine, I have accepted not having a baby ever, but I do have a good cry about once or twice a week. But miracles do happen. One thing is for sure…we have ALL gone through some suffering on this thread…I didn’t want to be the cause of one bit of suffering for another person going through IF, and I am sorry for that…it was unintended. I would suggest if you get the church group going to have a priest who knows solid church teaching and has some sort of psychology background…many of them have an undergrad of Psychology…that way the priest is giving the news,not you, and you get to just be among support for yourselves.

 

[onthisrock]

Onthisrock, no worries. As I mentioned, you’re the only person on here who’s disagreed in a civil manner. It’s hard not to get defensive even with civil people when you usually deal with people who like to hear themselves talk more than anything else

As for EA, I suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree. Regarding what you said:

“You were stating something about the Church that wasn’t true in terms of teachings. I didn’t just start writing with no thought. I **made sure what the church taught by my contact **and just relayed to you”

We can go in circles here. I have my sources from the church, as do you, and for some reason, there isn’t a clear commonality we can agree on, since we are both referring to the authority of the church in our decision making.

I’m glad to have had this back and forth, though, bc I imagine I may be on the other side of the debate when the IF ministry takes off at our church. I’m sure there will be folks considering options such as IVF and as church reps, it’ll be a thin line for us to be supportive while at the same time presenting church teaching and reasoning behind said teaching.

As for the requirements for traditional adoption, oye, don’t even get me started on those! lol

I’m not sure why you can’t get PM’s…I’ve never had a problem in the past with anyone else.I ran across this today while I was on the computer researching Holy Thursday and this thing about CDF’s came up, and it pertained to you a little. There was one called Dignitas Personae, and is from the CDF.I am specifically referring to the second part entitled “Freezing Embryos”. I’m actually really interested in asking any priest I come in contact with, their views of CDF’s vs encyclicals/councils. How many priests had you spoken to about this section (I am NOT being smart, but my interest is peaked on how priests view CDF’s in general). I found this about it… This is a document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF). The CDF exists to support the Pope in providing clear teaching on Church doctrine. The Pope has explicitly approved the document and therefore it shares his ordinary teaching authority. This kind of instruction does not have quite the same status as a Papal encyclical or a Church council, but it carries great weight. It is possible to criticise the way in which the CDF might express itself, or the wisdom of speaking on a particular issue at a particular time, but very strong reason is needed to dissent from the teaching itself. Dignitas Personae gives the most up-to-date official Catholic view on bioethical questions. I am NOT trying to change your views, I’m trying to find out about priests views in general about CDF’s, and what they mean to them.(my husband’s best friend is one and I’d really like to ask him too).

 

[anilorak13ska]

Onthisrock - the PM thing could be my fault, it takes me a while to figure out how to maneuver a new forum.

I have spoken with two priests, one I met on an Ignatious retreat, the other a Franciscan. But I do want to go back to the Franciscan one (at our current church) and have a proper sit-down with him and maybe get more clarification from him.

I just don’t see where in that second paragraph it says that we should not adopt already illicitly conceived embryos so that they may live. I see it says we shouldn’t create them in this way, and that there’s a dillema that doesn’t seem to have a valid response, but to me, and to others who’ve voiced their opinion on this, this means that we have to trust our conscience, spent time in discernment, and do what we believe God is calling us to do. Unless it says “do not do this”, I just don’t see a prohibition, rather a caution at best.

Btw, I wanted to ask you about being complete as two - this is a term I learned on a nondenominational Christian forum for IF ladies. I had never considered this as an option before joining that group. I have since seriously considered it. God placed a heavy burden in our lives that I don’t want to go into right now, that forced us to cancel our second attempt with our adopted embryos. We have been on hold for 3 months now, and during this time I finally came to accept that if God’s will for us is to not have children, that is OK with me. I am grateful for all the other blessings He has given me, starting with an amazing hubby. Having said that, I do not feel that is His plan for us. But I am not going about this the way I was for the past 4 years. I’m not pushing the issue. We will see what happens with the next transfer, and with this issue that is yet to be resolved (that determines weather or not we are eligible to adopt), and then we will know where God wants us to go from there.

Honestly, I’m tired. If our last two embies don’t stay, I’m not sure that I’d even want to adopt others. And if we’re not allowed to adopt traditionally, that leaves the fact that God would be calling us to a life complete as two…

Which brings me to my question. I recently posted this question on C.com, if it’s possible for God to call someone to the vocation of marriage but not parenthood, and I felt like there was simply no place in the church for people like us. If you have IF, then you adopt. But if you literally are not allowed to adopt? Then what? How can someone tell me that in that case, where I am not allowed to adopt, and the church forbids ARTs, how can they then still tell me that a calling to so-called CATness (complete as two) is NOT from God? It really frustrated me, bc it was a non-answer, totally unhelpful. And if we’re not allowed to adopt, newsflash, we’re not allowed to do any work with children (in our case, again, I don’t want to go into it now). We can’t just “get our baby/kid fix” by volunteering.

How do you feel about it? Do you feel like this is a vocation God has called you to? Or do you just feel left behind and trying to make the best of a ****** situation? Bc let me tell you, ever since I accepted that CAT could be a calling from God, it’s not as scary, or as depressing, as it was before.

Right now I’m giving us until my 35th bday (next year) to have everything resolved. If we still have no children by then, I think I will stop worrying about it and focus all of my energy on our ministries and other interests.

 

[anilorak13ska]

Thanks. I can only speak on what I know, and sadly, this hasn’t been a warm and fuzzy place for me. But luckily I have found other outlets of Catholic support.

Anilorak13ska,

My heart goes out to you, as one who also knows the pain of IF. It is a difficult road, and you know this better than I do for having lived with it for longer and tried valiantly to bring a child into your family.

There is some disagreement among Catholic theologians about Dignitas Personae, however I wouldn’t describe the discussion here as heated.

If people in other threads have been uncharitable to those seeking answers, it is partly the nature of internet discussions that allows people to say something and press “send” without thinking about it.

People come to CAF for different reasons. Some seek to learn the Catholic faith better, some seek to attack Catholics for their beliefs, and lots of other reasons.

Personally, I look to CAF to hear other people’s stories, to share my own and also to help others along.

God bless.

 

[onthisrock]

Honestly, I’m tired. If our last two embies don’t stay, I’m not sure that I’d even want to adopt others. And if we’re not allowed to adopt traditionally, that leaves the fact that God would be calling us to a life complete as two…

Which brings me to my question. I recently posted this question on C.com, if it’s possible for God to call someone to the vocation of marriage but not parenthood, and I felt like there was simply no place in the church for people like us. If you have IF, then you adopt. But if you literally are not allowed to adopt?
I was speaking was of section two…it goes into embryo adoption, but we’re past that discussion, I just wanted to know what priests in general think about these letters that are not encyclicals or councils…truly I know you have given it all much thought, I want to know what priests think?? There were actually three sections of the document, and section two after the listing “frozen embryos” went in directly about embryo adoption…that it is not accepted, but sort of ending it with…well, the parents have this responsibility to not allow doctors to just harvest a bunch of embryo’s…cause after a while, they fill up the “banks” of them, and we have a situation where they are used for research (which NOT ONE disease has advanced or been cured by…only adult stem cell research has been effective despite the NIH studying embryo STR since the early 90’s…really sad). I never heard the term “complete as two” but I did ask my husband’s friend (a priest) very frankly what he felt about couples with no children…I said " Are we a family with no children? He said absolutely! I felt a little better, but I just felt, why did God have this happen? We are open to children, want them so badly…how can it NOT be our vocation?? I’m crying as I write this. We are going on a WW-ME weekend in July. I’m hoping to just strengthen the only thing we have which is each other. I have a friend whose family is VERY fertile. I hate listening to suggestions from these types, but she said that on a ME weekend they met a couple that just never conceived or adopted…she said they seemed very happy and were able to do things others with children can’t do. I said in another post…I don’t know what else that could be. I have, though felt like a total fool, sitting around trying to be “stress free”, taking only category “C” meds when the best treatment for my one illness is a category “D” so I feel like I have suffered physically 'in case" I get pregnant. I’s been over two years…may not sound long, but I’m 38, he’s 42. I don’t want to be using a cane at my child’s high school graduation…and then there’s the increase in birth defects with the increase in age at conception. I know God will give me what i can handle, either with a healthy, disabled, or unfortunately no child situation. You and your husband are a family…think about life without him, and maybe you will see it a little clearer, that has helped me see us as a family. We are asked in a Catholic marriage to be open to children…we fulfilled our promise, God has maybe chosen something else. I still have all of the “plumbing” needed, and my husband has no issue with his guys so there’s a chance…maybe. We can’t adopt either. I have a minor misdemeanor…which is the least of our worries, but depression…and the adoption agencies run the other direction with mental illnesses…as though I would abuse my child or something. Unfortunately my police report said I was under the care of a psychiatrist as when you get arrested they ask if you are under the care of a doctor…I didn’t know five years later I would be married, with IF and wanting to adopt. We have the money, so it really is that depression that they look at…amazingly, people much sicker or disturbed can just take their baby home no questions…adoption agencies truly are businesses, as I shared about my friends from high school experiences. I could go on…but I know what it’s like to have that barrier. We could foster, but it is a LONG process and major drama. My mother is sickly and lives 3000 miles away so we need to be able to fly out there on short notice. with fost-adopt, until the adoption is final…you need to go to a judge and everything. Plus until the child is adopted, we would have to pay for airfare, which can get costly every couple months (my hubby works for a major airline so we fly everywhere free, as will our children…but not fosters) I went in a few directions but the holiest family ever to exist only had one child…I try to hold on to that and that God has chosen us to have IF…we are still a family regardless to how many children, if any we have. I would rather be married to my best friend, then be single. He and his family are my family now…My father is HORRIBLE, but i have a new one in my father in law…plus my sister’s kids when she isn’t having an issue with me(she has some real issues)…but the older ones are always able to contact me. I still dream of a situation where we find a way around traditional adoption like my in-laws did with my husband…it could happen as they are hooked into some lawyer in Mexico through volunteering building schools down there. My husband is Mexican , so we want an Hispanic child anyway, so you just never know. But please do…look to your husband as your family, as he is. I’m sure this CPS thing will fix itself. When it does, they better really make it right so you can adopt if you want. What drives me insane are people who come on an IF site and say “adopt”!! as if we are all idiots and that never occurred to us! I hope everything comes together for you and your husband. have you done a ME weekend? Most men think they’re lame but then change their minds when they actually go. we’ll see in July, so I’ll let you know. for now…God Bless, and have a happy Easter!!

 

[onthisrock]

Thsi is bizarre, Since they count all of the charecters of both of our quotes, I had to delete most of your stuff, which I assumed would still show up on the site, then now it looks as though I didn’t respond to you, just that I have a few sentences from your quote, and then my response. I doesn’t even have your name…this is dumb, that they can’t figure how to have a response without destroying the original quote!

 

[onthisrock]

Onthisrock - the PM thing could be my fault, it takes me a while to figure out how to maneuver a new forum.

I have spoken with two priests, one I met on an Ignatious retreat, the other a Franciscan. But I do want to go back to the Franciscan one (at our current church) and have a proper sit-down with him and maybe get more clarification from him.

I just don’t see where in that second paragraph it says that we should not adopt already illicitly conceived embryos so that they may live. I see it says we shouldn’t create them in this way, and that there’s a dillema that doesn’t seem to have a valid response, but to me, and to others who’ve voiced their opinion on this, this means that we have to trust our conscience, spent time in discernment, and do what we believe God is calling us to do. Unless it says “do not do this”, I just don’t see a prohibition, rather a caution at best.

Btw, I wanted to ask you about being complete as two - this is a term I learned on a nondenominational Christian forum for IF ladies. I had never considered this as an option before joining that group. I have since seriously considered it. God placed a heavy burden in our lives that I don’t want to go into right now, that forced us to cancel our second attempt with our adopted embryos. We have been on hold for 3 months now, and during this time I finally came to accept that if God’s will for us is to not have children, that is OK with me. I am grateful for all the other blessings He has given me, starting with an amazing hubby. Having said that, I do not feel that is His plan for us. But I am not going about this the way I was for the past 4 years. I’m not pushing the issue. We will see what happens with the next transfer, and with this issue that is yet to be resolved (that determines weather or not we are eligible to adopt), and then we will know where God wants us to go from there.

Honestly, I’m tired. If our last two embies don’t stay, I’m not sure that I’d even want to adopt others. And if we’re not allowed to adopt traditionally, that leaves the fact that God would be calling us to a life complete as two…

Which brings me to my question. I recently posted this question on C.com, if it’s possible for God to call someone to the vocation of marriage but not parenthood, and I felt like there was simply no place in the church for people like us. If you have IF, then you adopt. But if you literally are not allowed to adopt? Then what? How can someone tell me that in that case, where I am not allowed to adopt, and the church forbids ARTs, how can they then still tell me that a calling to so-called CATness (complete as two) is NOT from God? It really frustrated me, bc it was a non-answer, totally unhelpful. And if we’re not allowed to adopt, newsflash, we’re not allowed to do any work with children (in our case, again, I don’t want to go into it now). We can’t just “get our baby/kid fix” by volunteering.

How do you feel about it? Do you feel like this is a vocation God has called you to? Or do you just feel left behind and trying to make the best of a ****** situation? Bc let me tell you, ever since I accepted that CAT could be a calling from God, it’s not as scary, or as depressing, as it was before.

Right now I’m giving us until my 35th bday (next year) to have everything resolved. If we still have no children by then, I think I will stop worrying about it and focus all of my energy on our ministries and other interests.

I responded to your quote, and they have it all as though i posted it with some of your statement…I knew your’s would still show up on the thread, but now it looks like I mak=de a statement about embies, and went randomly into the response. this site needs major work! Anyway…look down a couple, my response about complete as two…sorry about the mix up!

 

[onthisrock]

Onthisrock - the PM thing could be my fault, it takes me a while to figure out how to maneuver a new forum.

I have spoken with two priests, one I met on an Ignatious retreat, the other a Franciscan. But I do want to go back to the Franciscan one (at our current church) and have a proper sit-down with him and maybe get more clarification from him.

I just don’t see where in that second paragraph it says that we should not adopt already illicitly conceived embryos so that they may live. I see it says we shouldn’t create them in this way, and that there’s a dillema that doesn’t seem to have a valid response, but to me, and to others who’ve voiced their opinion on this, this means that we have to trust our conscience, spent time in discernment, and do what we believe God is calling us to do. Unless it says “do not do this”, I just don’t see a prohibition, rather a caution at best.

Btw, I wanted to ask you about being complete as two - this is a term I learned on a nondenominational Christian forum for IF ladies. I had never considered this as an option before joining that group. I have since seriously considered it. God placed a heavy burden in our lives that I don’t want to go into right now, that forced us to cancel our second attempt with our adopted embryos. We have been on hold for 3 months now, and during this time I finally came to accept that if God’s will for us is to not have children, that is OK with me. I am grateful for all the other blessings He has given me, starting with an amazing hubby. Having said that, I do not feel that is His plan for us. But I am not going about this the way I was for the past 4 years. I’m not pushing the issue. We will see what happens with the next transfer, and with this issue that is yet to be resolved (that determines weather or not we are eligible to adopt), and then we will know where God wants us to go from there.

Honestly, I’m tired. If our last two embies don’t stay, I’m not sure that I’d even want to adopt others. And if we’re not allowed to adopt traditionally, that leaves the fact that God would be calling us to a life complete as two…

Which brings me to my question. I recently posted this question on C.com, if it’s possible for God to call someone to the vocation of marriage but not parenthood, and I felt like there was simply no place in the church for people like us. If you have IF, then you adopt. But if you literally are not allowed to adopt? Then what? How can someone tell me that in that case, where I am not allowed to adopt, and the church forbids ARTs, how can they then still tell me that a calling to so-called CATness (complete as two) is NOT from God? It really frustrated me, bc it was a non-answer, totally unhelpful. And if we’re not allowed to adopt, newsflash, we’re not allowed to do any work with children (in our case, again, I don’t want to go into it now). We can’t just “get our baby/kid fix” by volunteering.

How do you feel about it? Do you feel like this is a vocation God has called you to? Or do you just feel left behind and trying to make the best of a ****** situation? Bc let me tell you, ever since I accepted that CAT could be a calling from God, it’s not as scary, or as depressing, as it was before.

Right now I’m giving us until my 35th bday (next year) to have everything resolved. If we still have no children by then, I think I will stop worrying about it and focus all of my energy on our ministries and other interests.

Now I’m really freaking out about this site…my response to you is actually post number 1199. I tried to respond to you and it said too many characters because they don’t know how to count your quote seperate from my response…you would think a basic skill of an online forum:shrug:

 

[onthisrock]

Onthisrock - the PM thing could be my fault, it takes me a while to figure out how to maneuver a new forum.
How do you feel about it? Do you feel like this is a vocation God has called you to? Or do you just feel left behind and trying to make the best of a ****** situation? Bc let me tell you, ever since I accepted that CAT could be a calling from God, it’s not as scary, or as depressing, as it was before.

stop worrying about it and focus all of my energy on our ministries and other interests.

I was speaking was of section two…it goes into embryo adoption, but we’re past that discussion, I just wanted to know what priests in general think about these letters that are not encyclicals or councils…truly I know you have given it all much thought, I want to know what priests think?? There were actually three sections of the document, and section two after the listing “frozen embryos” went in directly about embryo adoption…that it is not accepted, but sort of ending it with…well, the parents have this responsibility to not allow doctors to just harvest a bunch of embryo’s…cause after a while, they fill up the “banks” of them, and we have a situation where they are used for research (which NOT ONE disease has advanced or been cured by…only adult stem cell research has been effective despite the NIH studying embryo STR since the early 90’s…really sad). I never heard the term “complete as two” but I did ask my husband’s friend (a priest) very frankly what he felt about couples with no children…I said " Are we a family with no children? He said absolutely! I felt a little better, but I just felt, why did God have this happen? We are open to children, want them so badly…how can it NOT be our vocation?? I’m crying as I write this. We are going on a WW-ME weekend in July. I’m hoping to just strengthen the only thing we have which is each other. I have a friend whose family is VERY fertile. I hate listening to suggestions from these types, but she said that on a ME weekend they met a couple that just never conceived or adopted…she said they seemed very happy and were able to do things others with children can’t do. I said in another post…I don’t know what else that could be. I have, though felt like a total fool, sitting around trying to be “stress free”, taking only category “C” meds when the best treatment for my one illness is a category “D” so I feel like I have suffered physically 'in case" I get pregnant. I’s been over two years…may not sound long, but I’m 38, he’s 42. I don’t want to be using a cane at my child’s high school graduation…and then there’s the increase in birth defects with the increase in age at conception. I know God will give me what i can handle, either with a healthy, disabled, or unfortunately no child situation. You and your husband are a family…think about life without him, and maybe you will see it a little clearer, that has helped me see us as a family. We are asked in a Catholic marriage to be open to children…we fulfilled our promise, God has maybe chosen something else. I still have all of the “plumbing” needed, and my husband has no issue with his guys so there’s a chance…maybe. We can’t adopt either. I have a minor misdemeanor…which is the least of our worries, but depression…and the adoption agencies run the other direction with mental illnesses…as though I would abuse my child or something. Unfortunately my police report said I was under the care of a psychiatrist as when you get arrested they ask if you are under the care of a doctor…I didn’t know five years later I would be married, with IF and wanting to adopt. We have the money, so it really is that depression that they look at…amazingly, people much sicker or disturbed can just take their baby home no questions…adoption agencies truly are businesses, as I shared about my friends from high school experiences. I could go on…but I know what it’s like to have that barrier. We could foster, but it is a LONG process and major drama. My mother is sickly and lives 3000 miles away so we need to be able to fly out there on short notice. with fost-adopt, until the adoption is final…you need to go to a judge and everything. Plus until the child is adopted, we would have to pay for airfare, which can get costly every couple months (my hubby works for a major airline so we fly everywhere free, as will our children…but not fosters) I went in a few directions but the holiest family ever to exist only had one child…I try to hold on to that and that God has chosen us to have IF…we are still a family regardless to how many children, if any we have. I would rather be married to my best friend, then be single. He and his family are my family now…My father is HORRIBLE, but i have a new one in my father in law…plus my sister’s kids when she isn’t having an issue with me(she has some real issues)…but the older ones are always able to contact me. I still dream of a situation where we find a way around traditional adoption like my in-laws did with my husband…it could happen as they are hooked into some lawyer in Mexico through volunteering building schools down there. My husband is Mexican , so we want an Hispanic child anyway, so you just never know. But please do…look to your husband as your family, as he is. I’m sure this CPS thing will fix itself. When it does, they better really make it right so you can adopt if you want. What drives me insane are people who come on an IF site and say “adopt”!! as if we are all idiots and that never occurred to us! I hope everything comes together for you and your husband. have you done a ME weekend? Most men think they’re lame but then change their minds when they actually go. we’ll see in July, so I’ll let you know. for now…God Bless, and have a happy Easter!!

 

[onthisrock]

Onthisrock - the PM thing could be my fault, it takes me a while to figure out how to maneuver a new forum.

I have spoken with two priests, one I met on an Ignatious retreat, the other a Franciscan. But I do want to go back to the Franciscan one (at our current church) and have a proper sit-down with him and maybe get more clarification from him.

I just don’t see where in that second paragraph it says that we should not adopt already illicitly conceived embryos so that they may live. I see it says we shouldn’t create them in this way, and that there’s a dillema that doesn’t seem to have a valid response, but to me, and to others who’ve voiced their opinion on this, this means that we have to trust our conscience, spent time in discernment, and do what we believe God is calling us to do. Unless it says “do not do this”, I just don’t see a prohibition, rather a caution at best.

Btw, I wanted to ask you about being complete as two - this is a term I learned on a nondenominational Christian forum for IF ladies. I had never considered this as an option before joining that group. I have since seriously considered it. God placed a heavy burden in our lives that I don’t want to go into right now, that forced us to cancel our second attempt with our adopted embryos. We have been on hold for 3 months now, and during this time I finally came to accept that if God’s will for us is to not have children, that is OK with me. I am grateful for all the other blessings He has given me, starting with an amazing hubby. Having said that, I do not feel that is His plan for us. But I am not going about this the way I was for the past 4 years. I’m not pushing the issue. We will see what happens with the next transfer, and with this issue that is yet to be resolved (that determines weather or not we are eligible to adopt), and then we will know where God wants us to go from there.

Honestly, I’m tired. If our last two embies don’t stay, I’m not sure that I’d even want to adopt others. And if we’re not allowed to adopt traditionally, that leaves the fact that God would be calling us to a life complete as two…

Which brings me to my question. I recently posted this question on C.com, if it’s possible for God to call someone to the vocation of marriage but not parenthood, and I felt like there was simply no place in the church for people like us. If you have IF, then you adopt. But if you literally are not allowed to adopt? Then what? How can someone tell me that in that case, where I am not allowed to adopt, and the church forbids ARTs, how can they then still tell me that a calling to so-called CATness (complete as two) is NOT from God? It really frustrated me, bc it was a non-answer, totally unhelpful. And if we’re not allowed to adopt, newsflash, we’re not allowed to do any work with children (in our case, again, I don’t want to go into it now). We can’t just “get our baby/kid fix” by volunteering.

How do you feel about it? Do you feel like this is a vocation God has called you to? Or do you just feel left behind and trying to make the best of a ****** situation? Bc let me tell you, ever since I accepted that CAT could be a calling from God, it’s not as scary, or as depressing, as it was before.

Right now I’m giving us until my 35th bday (next year) to have everything resolved. If we still have no children by then, I think I will stop worrying about it and focus all of my energy on our ministries and other interests.

I sent you a PM

 

[sacredcello]

I was speaking was of section two…it goes into embryo adoption, but we’re past that discussion, I just wanted to know what priests in general think about these letters that are not encyclicals or councils…truly I know you have given it all much thought, I want to know what priests think?? There were actually three sections of the document, and section two after the listing “frozen embryos” went in directly about embryo adoption…that it is not accepted, but sort of ending it with…well, the parents have this responsibility to not allow doctors to just harvest a bunch of embryo’s…cause after a while, they fill up the “banks” of them, and we have a situation where they are used for research (which NOT ONE disease has advanced or been cured by…only adult stem cell research has been effective despite the NIH studying embryo STR since the early 90’s…really sad). I never heard the term “complete as two” but I did ask my husband’s friend (a priest) very frankly what he felt about couples with no children…I said " Are we a family with no children? He said absolutely! I felt a little better, but I just felt, why did God have this happen? We are open to children, want them so badly…how can it NOT be our vocation?? …

Dear Kathleen,

Thank you for sharing your testimony. I felt a great weight lifted off of me when you said that about adoption. We had not begun researching it yet, so I did not know that adoption agencies run the other way with depression. I feel so much better. Now it is truly all in God’s hands, since I have that history… I even purchased a gun to kill myself about 12 years ago, but, thank God, I did not do it. If I had to show medical records, I’m sure that would appear. Now, we can simply follow through with our fertility treatments, vitamins, acupuncture, exercise, diet, etc. and have hope. What a relief. Honestly, I don’t think I will mind if it turns out that we never have a child. Of course, we want them, but I want to do God’s will more than anything.

It is true that God gives other gifts when others are held back. Today, I was walking around Philadelphia and remembering what it was like to be a music student here so many years ago. I wanted to be a professional cellist more than anything in the whole world, but I barely was able to pay my rent and had to work as a waitress to make ends meet. Now, all of those dreams have come true. Visiting the city again and going to Good Friday service at the Cathedral of St. Peter and Paul, I could give thanks for His abundant blessings. Truly, we are blessed.

Happy Easter and God’s peace to you and all others who suffer with IF.

 

[onthisrock]

Dear Kathleen,

What a wonderful pilgrimage! I am so glad that you went to St. Philomena’s shrine and were able to put your dream box near her altar. St. Philomena is such a dear saint. And, also strong. Can you imagine what she went up against with the executioners who tried several times to kill her? I try to say her chaplet every day.

Congratulations, also, on losing 10 lbs! That’s awesome. I’m sorry about the anti-depressant. I was on one for about 6 months some 12 years ago. I gained a little weight, but since I had no appetite, it was only a few pounds. Most of all, I disliked the lethargy that was a side effect. I knew I had to get off it immediately, but I didn’t want the suicidal thoughts coming back. So, what I did was taper it off very gradually. I cut the pills in quarters. I took 3/4 of a pill for a few weeks, then 1/2 a pill, then 1/4 and finally I didn’t miss it and was able to get on just fine without it. That was many years ago; long before I met my husband and began dealing with infertility. Now, I still get depressed - sometimes it hurts to breathe. But, it is manageable. There is no way that I will go back on those meds. This is not medical advice, just sharing my experience.

Good job explaining about embryo adoption. You said it very well. Children have the right to be conceived by a natural act of love between their parents. Here is a video which explains Church teaching in more depth.

As one who has been dealing with IF for more than 2 years (not long, I know), I have had the occasion to visit secular websites such as The Bump in hopes of discussing it with other ladies. That was a big mistake. The assumption is that every couple has a RIGHT to a child, regardless of the means. IVF is considered legitimate medical treatment, even by many people who call themselves Catholic. When I pointed to the place in the Catechism where it says otherwise, there were numerous Catholics who lined up to say that their …“grandmother goes to church every day and she has no problem with it” or linking some article that shows how the Church is out of touch. I have learned the hard way to stay away from these sites. They are poison.

Anyway, Kathleen, I am so glad that you have scheduled your surgery with Dr. Hilgers. I will keep you in my prayers. I, too, am a convert to the Catholic faith, from the Episcopal church. For myself, I am looking on some of this personal suffering as penance for my previous sinful lifestyle. I was raised to believe that contraception is good and, sadly, it took many years after my conversion to the Catholic faith, and one failed marriage, to realize that God wants us to lead a holy life and contraception has no part in that. The annulment process taught me this painful lesson as well. I’m not saying that God is punishing me with infertility because of my sins. But, there is the very hard reality that I am now 41 years old and it took me this long to see God’s plan for families. Yes, God can work miracles, but my age is a factor.

Last night, my husband and I consecrated our family to the Holy Family and made the enthronement of Sacred Scripture and hung a picture of the Holy Family on our wall. Here is the website, if anyone is interested.

Prayers for all.

Sent you another PM!

 

[onthisrock]

Dear Kathleen,

Thank you for sharing your testimony. I felt a great weight lifted off of me when you said that about adoption. We had not begun researching it yet, so I did not know that adoption agencies run the other way with depression. I feel so much better. Now it is truly all in God’s hands, since I have that history… I even purchased a gun to kill myself about 12 years ago, but, thank God, I did not do it. If I had to show medical records, I’m sure that would appear. Now, we can simply follow through with our fertility treatments, vitamins, acupuncture, exercise, diet, etc. and have hope. What a relief. Honestly, I don’t think I will mind if it turns out that we never have a child. Of course, we want them, but I want to do God’s will more than anything.

It is true that God gives other gifts when others are held back. Today, I was walking around Philadelphia and remembering what it was like to be a music student here so many years ago. I wanted to be a professional cellist more than anything in the whole world, but I barely was able to pay my rent and had to work as a waitress to make ends meet. Now, all of those dreams have come true. Visiting the city again and going to Good Friday service at the Cathedral of St. Peter and Paul, I could give thanks for His abundant blessings. Truly, we are blessed.

Happy Easter and God’s peace to you and all others who suffer with IF.

Here’s a little Easter humor…depending on your sense of humor…mine being a little off…I asked my husband tonight after Easter vigil ,and a party afterward for the whole choir (my hubby is in) I said…well, you have to go to work so early tomorrow, and we’re tired, but would you like to try for an Easter miracle when you get home tomorrow night??? He said "Sure, I’ll go on an Easter egg hunt!! You have to laugh or you’ll cry right? so glad you were in Philly. I wish I was there. I begged my husband to promise we’ll leave this state someday. He said yes, he doesn’t know when or how, but we will. I said, driving on the 605…don’t let me die in this state. I really hate CA. I feel like I’m on another planet (unless I lived rural, then it’s conservative and beautiful with mountains and fields of wildflowers)…but he has to work at a big airport…and his airline doesn’t have a ground traffic control tower in Philly…or we’d be there! Our best hope is for Atlanta, which I wouldn’t mind either…but I LOVE Philly sooo much! go to St. John’s! It’s my Catholic homeWell, it’s already Easter, so have a great day!

 

[catholicanne]

Hello,

I don’t think I have posted here before but I have been feeling sad today because of my infertility. I have PCOS and my husband and I have been trying to get pregnant for the last 8 years with no success. I pray daily that God will eventually answer my prayers and I try to keep my faith that in His time, not mine, He will. I guess I just wanted to say hello and let you all know that I too suffer with this cross I have been asked to bear.

Hugs,
Anne

 

[onthisrock]

Hello,

I don’t think I have posted here before but I have been feeling sad today because of my infertility. I have PCOS and my husband and I have been trying to get pregnant for the last 8 years with no success. I pray daily that God will eventually answer my prayers and I try to keep my faith that in His time, not mine, He will. I guess I just wanted to say hello and let you all know that I too suffer with this cross I have been asked to bear.

Hugs,
Anne

Welcome! I have been dealing with PCOS for years but now since I’ve been married for 2.5 years, and trying to get pregnant, it hasn’t happened. Have you been using the Creighton Model? that’s a good start for getting Naprotechnology treatments…which I am getting. Just wanted to say hi, back to you, and not leave you hanging. I’m super tired, but you can always PM me. Not sure if you have explored all of your options for treating PCOS? It is so frustrating to think each cycle that goes by is another lost chance, so I feel your pain there. I am 38, so time is of the essence for us. 8 years is a long struggle…and I pray you have much brighter days a head of you! God Bless!