Infinite Regress: the one pathway to salvation

[losh14]

Would it help any to offer that Catholics believe that the Catholic Church is the ordinary vehicle of Grace (whether instructing, infusing or maturing) but not by any means the sole vehicle of Grace?

To explain ‘ordinary’ consider the metaphor: ordinarily our children receive instruction in math in their classrooms,but if the school is flooded the teachers can teach groups at the library. If they are on strike, students can learn through study groups in homes or community centers. The classroom is the ordinary means, the library and community center is the extraordinary.

It looks like we have several interweaving threads of thought here:

• Whether participation in grace is possible
• If it is possible, whether it is necessary
• By what means grace is received

And I think it would help to elucidate that there is Grace which opens the relationship with Christ and Grace which sustains it. These are the same in that these are gifts, freely given, but they are distinct in effect becuase the salvific needs of their intendend recipients differ.

Otherwise I really don’t want to get back into this one at this point. It’s been a long-enough week.

 

[losh14]

Okay, I’ll delve back.

If you believe that your faith saves from the initial regeneration, then too must be the works since both the faith and works come from the same source. If works are unnecessary, then God is Savior but not Lord, not requiring obedience from His children, making conversion unnecessary.

This is an interesting conclusion and a good distinction to draw. Where we ask “what is required for salvation” we should also ask “Why is that required for salvation?” If one considers faith and works as being homogenous, as in “I obey because I believe” and “I believe therefore I obey” then the pathway of salvation becomes clearer.

God can hardly consult my free will if I am not created, so I couldn’t be forced into anything if I didn’t exist but given the evidence that humans have free will, it would be reasonable to conclude that He would honor what He created within humans–free will upon creation, however impaired upon the Fall.

I have difficulty accepting a conclusion that free will always chooses evil - it does not. Nor does it always choose good. If the unimpaired will always chooses good then we can only conclude that the impaired will chooses evil at least once. This does not abrogate that God is responsible for inspiring and allowing all good within us, rather impaired will speaks to our ability to correspond with God on that inspiration.

For me, when I read Scripture there are passages that would support a predestiantion view and passages that refute it, but what overwhelms me is that the language of Scripture is generally that of admonishment rather than declaration. If the elect are predestined and works merely flow as a consequence of election, then the language is more properly “Because you are saved, you will do this.” Rather, the language is more often “You should do this”. Indeed, the greatest importance of free will is to do as we should rather than as we wish.

 

[losh14]

Does the bible contradict itself? Or is it more likely that you misinterpret it? In the passage from Matt. 25, the sheep and the goats are being characterized by their deeds, or their lack of them. But contrary to the clearest biblical teachings, you infer that the cause of the sheeps’ salvation is their good works, and the cause of the goats damnation is their lack of good works.

I considered your argument seriously and went back to the Greek - the conjunctive clause begins with “For” which is rendered in Greek as ‘gar’, a particle that indicates causality (as in Mark 9:6 - “For he did not know what to answer, for they became terrified”). This doesn’t indicate characterization, as does ‘apo’ which indicates distinction in Mt 7:20 “So then, you will know them by their fruits.” I know that’s not an exhaustive explanation - I don’t intend to go through every particle of Greek, but I think the meaning in English is rendered fairly faithfully to the Greek in this instance, and as such there is a causal relationship.

I won’t go so far (and I don’t think paul c would either) to say that the SOLE cause of the sheeps’ salvation is their good works. Parables tend to simplify in order to focus, and the focus here is the point of distinction: did one perform works of charity and mercy or did they not? Again, I think this is in line with judgement that considers the entirety of one’s life, rather than a point by point. All of us are part sheep and part goat in behavior - we have likely failed to be charitable or merciful as we have also succeeded in doing so. If we are to take the Bible as a whole, we should be open to God’s understanding of us from a standpoint of what we believe as well as what we do in accord with that belief.

 

[losh14]

Regarding the issue of whether salvation is a gift that can received and then lost, it is self evident that the grace of salvation would be pointless, useless, and actually meaningless if it is eventually lost. To put it another way, if the gift of salvation is only a temporary gift, and it isn’t accompanied by the gift (grace) of perseverance, then it has no point and no purpose.

On this point I disagree respectfully. A gift is a gift because it is given without compulsion or exchange. Grace is free because we have not earned it, and it remains a gift whether or not we accept it. Neither does it lose its meaning, as a gift retains its meaning even if it does not accomplish what is intended.

Indeed, Grace can be frustrated. Paul urges the Corinthians to reconciliation so that the Grace they received shall not be wasted:

2 Cor 5:20 - 6:1
“Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain.”

Paul admonishes the Corinthians to reconciliation, after making note that they stand firm in faith (1:24). If they have faith, they have it by Grace, and if that Grace is imperishable, there is no need to fear it being lost. Yet Paul precisely argues this and gives as his reason his fear that the Grace will be in vain. Likewise he writes in 1 Cor 15:10 and Philemon 2:16 of Grace not being in vain.

Likewise, he writes of those who have forsaken this Grace in Hebrews 6:4-6
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”

Paul writes not of false converts or those who had outward appearances of Grace but inwardly never received Grace. Without Grace, one cannot be enlightened, cannot receive the Holy Spirit (much less be a partaker of the Holy Spirit), cannot have ‘tasted of the heavenly gift’ unless that heavenly gift has been given. Strong words are fitting here because the forsaking of the gift is so terrible, yet it is possible. If one has fallen away because one never received the gift, such admonishments would be unnecessary.

Paul’s recourse to the temptation to fall away is in Heb 6:11-12:
“And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.”

Perseverence, in other words, is not merely a gift to be received but a response to be lived. It is a cooperation with the very Grace that God gives freely.

Note that the language of cooperation is not alien to Scripture:
Mark 16:20 “Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.”

Here, God cooperates with man to produce salvation - the goal of preaching. This is the same working together that we see in 2 Cor 6:1.

Now we’re getting to another of your objections, that of free will. I must admit I labored in vain to find a passage specifically stating in favor of or against free will. I think it’s too modern of a term to find in Scripture, but where I found language that describes believers as slaves of Christ(Eph 6:6), I also found language that describes us as God’s fellow workers (1 Cor 3:9). Perhaps the Thomist perspective merits revisiting, but I don’t feel like delving into “City of God” at this late hour.

I’ll be less formal and conclude by noting that the language of Scripture is participative rather than definitive. Okay, that’s formal language - sorry. If we do not have participation in the Grace we receive - if it truly overrides our will and controls us - then we expect language describing good works as being derivative - ie, “You will know them by their fruits” or you will do these because of the Grace you have received.

We have this language, and we also have its opposite:
1 Tim 6:18 Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.

Heb 3:16 And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.

1 Th 3-4 It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable.

1 Th 5:22 Avoid every kind of evil.

Gal 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

This is language of participation, not merely derivation. Scripture attests both that Christ is our Savior and salvation is impossible without Him, and also that we are active participants in our salvation. These ideas are not contradictory nor mutually exclusive.

Perhaps this thread would benefit from some time to pray and think. I’ve been praying on our discussions here and I thank you all for offering them. May the Lord preserve you and grant you the Grace the sustain you, especially in the week that comes.