infinite universe?

[lobster]

Does God’s infinite nature necessitate the existence of an infinite scope to the universe? Would universe with an ‘edge’ so to speak indicate a limitation on God’s own infinite nature? Could we therefore reason that the universe should be infinitely vast?

 

[nickpeter]

Hello,
It seems to me if we extrapolate a bit on your question one might ask: God is infinite, God created my brain therefore my brain must be infinite. Mine is fairly close but doesn’t quite make it.
In Carmel, Nickpeter

 

[NolePaul2009]

Mathematically, you would think an infinate universe would exist. There might be an “edge” where the stars, galaxies, etc end and open space exists into infinity.

 

[JimG]

God’s infinity does not require an infinite universe.

They would be different kinds of infinity in any case.
God is infinite spirit. I’m thinking that by an infinite universe you probably mean one that has an infinite extension in space. But, as I said, that’s not needed.

The current thinking, unless the scientists have changed their minds recently, is that the universe is not spatially infinite, but rather that it consists of a positively curved space closed in on itself, and filled with galaxies, and expanding.

The ‘three dimensional’ space of the universe could be thought of as analogous to the surface of a sphere. Any galaxy is represented by a dot on the sphere. If you travel out from the dot in any direction, you will eventually circumnavigate the sphere and arrive back where you started.

For that kind of universe, a starship might travel in a straight line for a few hundred billion years and arrive back where it started. (If it traveled at something like 99.9999999% of the speed of light, not much time would elapse for the travelers, but when they got back to where they started, some billions of years would have elapsed for those who stayed behind.)

 

[lobster]

Hello,
It seems to me if we extrapolate a bit on your question one might ask: God is infinite, God created my brain therefore my brain must be infinite. Mine is fairly close but doesn’t quite make it.
In Carmel, Nickpeter

I guess you have a point. Although I must say, my brain doesn’t even come close to fairly close to being infinite. Perhaps why I asked such a question.

 

[lobster]

God’s infinity does not require an infinite universe.

They would be different kinds of infinity in any case.
God is infinite spirit. I’m thinking that by an infinite universe you probably mean one that has an infinite extension in space. But, as I said, that’s not needed.

The current thinking, unless the scientists have changed their minds recently, is that the universe is not spatially infinite, but rather that it consists of a positively curved space closed in on itself, and filled with galaxies, and expanding.

The ‘three dimensional’ space of the universe could be thought of as analogous to the surface of a sphere. Any galaxy is represented by a dot on the sphere. If you travel out from the dot in any direction, you will eventually circumnavigate the sphere and arrive back where you started.

For that kind of universe, a starship might travel in a straight line for a few hundred billion years and arrive back where it started. (If it traveled at something like 99.9999999% of the speed of light, not much time would elapse for the travelers, but when they got back to where they started, some billions of years would have elapsed for those who stayed behind.)

Thank you for your insight. Makes a lot of sense.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

God’s infinity does not require an infinite universe.

They would be different kinds of infinity in any case.
God is infinite spirit. I’m thinking that by an infinite universe you probably mean one that has an infinite extension in space. But, as I said, that’s not needed.The current thinking, unless the scientists have changed their

minds recently, is that the universe is not spatially infinite, but rather that it consists of a positively curved space closed in on itself, and filled with galaxies, and expanding.

The ‘three dimensional’ space of the universe could be thought of as analogous to the surface of a sphere. Any galaxy is represented by a dot on the sphere. If you travel out from the dot in any direction, you will eventually circumnavigate the sphere and arrive back where you started.

For that kind of universe, a starship might travel in a straight line for a few hundred billion years and arrive back where it started. (If it traveled at something like 99.9999999% of the speed of light, not much time would elapse for the travelers, but when they got back to where they started, some billions of years would have elapsed for those who stayed behind.)

Some questions:​

• The Time Machine in H.G Wells travels 30 million years into the future - what it does not do is travel (say) 15 billion years into the future; if it did, would it be destroyed by not having an Earth to rest upon ? (Assuming the Earth to be destroyed by then, & none to have replaced it.)
• How would its fate in the future affect its condition in 1900, the date of the events by “usual” Earth reckoning ?

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

God’s infinity does not require an infinite universe.

They would be different kinds of infinity in any case.
God is infinite spirit. I’m thinking that by an infinite universe you probably mean one that has an infinite extension in space. But, as I said, that’s not needed.

The current thinking, unless the scientists have changed their minds recently, is that the universe is not spatially infinite, but rather that it consists of a positively curved space closed in on itself, and filled with galaxies, and expanding.

The ‘three dimensional’ space of the universe could be thought of as analogous to the surface of a sphere. Any galaxy is represented by a dot on the sphere. If you travel out from the dot in any direction, you will eventually circumnavigate the sphere and arrive back where you started.

For that kind of universe, a starship might travel in a straight line for a few hundred billion years and arrive back where it started. (If it traveled at something like 99.9999999% of the speed of light, not much time would elapse for the travelers, but when they got back to where they started, some billions of years would have elapsed for those who stayed behind.)

If the universe expands enough, might it not burst, like a balloon at a party ? And if it does, “where” would the “pieces” go ?​

 

[JimG]

If the universe expands enough, might it not burst, like a balloon at a party ? And if it does, “where” would the “pieces” go ?​

No, it wouldn’t burst, but it would become relatively more empty, given that the galaxies were being separated by increasing amounts of space. Unless of course new galaxies were simultaneously being formed. Depending on the amount of matter/energy in the universe, it would either keep expanding forever, or at some point begin to contract again, eventually squeezing us all into as small a space as the original primordial speck which existed at the big bang.

 

[CTA1967]

I’m assuming all that wouldn’t affect human life by then?

 

[JimG]

I’m assuming all that wouldn’t affect human life by then?

Well, if the human species is still around long enough to witness unending expansion, we will all be subject to death by entropy as the universe gradually runs down, overcome by the ultimate in cosmic cooling.

Conversely, if the universe happens to reverse itself and begins contracting again, we’ll have cosmic warming like you couldn’t believe, ending up as nothing but superheated plasma!

Unless we can all manage to merge our minds into a pantheistic hyperspace, as Asimov envisioned in his short story, “The Last Question.”

 

[JDaniel]

Does God’s infinite nature necessitate the existence of an infinite scope to the universe? Would universe with an ‘edge’ so to speak indicate a limitation on God’s own infinite nature? Could we therefore reason that the universe should be infinitely vast?

No.

If the universe was infinitely vast, we would not be able to see the next star, or galaxy, or constellation, with our limited telescopes. We have a finite amount of matter. Expand that into an infinite space. I doubt the light would make the trip(s).

In quantum mathematics, an infinity means that something is transfinite, at this very moment, but is expanding towards what we call an actual infinity. In other words, it can only be potentially infinite.

Odds are, we won’t be around to see it anyway.

Now, if you ask me why can’t we have an infinity of matter, then I will tell you that we would “see” nothing at all. We would all exist in a thick soup of material particles, impenetrable beyond the outer surface of our eye. And, oh, by the way, there would probably be no local motion either.

jd

 

[JimG]

Another thing. If the universe were spatially infinite and also evenly distributed with stars and galaxies throughout (i.e. homogenous), the night sky would be as blazing bright as the day, and the day sky would be equally bright. Because an infinity of stars, no matter how distant, would, because of their infinite number, produce a totally bright sky both day and night.

But the night sky is not bright. So we infer that the universe is either not infinite or not homogenous.

 

[mapleoak]

For that kind of universe, a starship might travel in a straight line for a few hundred billion years and arrive back where it started. (If it traveled at something like 99.9999999% of the speed of light, not much time would elapse for the travelers, but when they got back to where they started, some billions of years would have elapsed for those who stayed behind.)

Nonsense. If I traveled in a rocket launched from Earth, circled the Sun, and returned to Earth all in one second, no more time than one second would have elapsed for me or anyone else. If I then took a telescope and looked at the sun, I would be able to see my rocket where it appears to have been seven minutes ago. Doesn’t mean I was actually traveling in space seven minutes ago. I was just traveling faster than light such that I got back to Earth before the light did.

 

[JimG]

Nonsense. If I traveled in a rocket launched from Earth, circled the Sun, and returned to Earth all in one second, no more time than one second would have elapsed for me or anyone else. If I then took a telescope and looked at the sun, I would be able to see my rocket where it appears to have been seven minutes ago. Doesn’t mean I was actually traveling in space seven minutes ago. I was just traveling faster than light such that I got back to Earth before the light did.

As I understand it, the time dilation effect predicted by relativity theory has been experimentally verified. At velocities approaching the speed of light, time slows down.

And since energy has mass, the higher kinetic energy required to reach near light speeds has the effect of making the speeding object more massive, approaching infinite mass at a value of c.

 

[taylor007]

I guess you have a point. Although I must say, my brain doesn’t even come close to fairly close to being infinite. Perhaps why I asked such a question.

A late realization is better than never.

 

[Eucharisted]

Does God’s infinite nature necessitate the existence of an infinite scope to the universe? Would universe with an ‘edge’ so to speak indicate a limitation on God’s own infinite nature? Could we therefore reason that the universe should be infinitely vast?

You’re thinking of the heresy Pantheism.

 

[empther]

Mathematically, you would think an infinate universe would exist. There might be an “edge” where the stars, galaxies, etc end and open space exists into infinity.

A result of Einstein’s relativity is that matter creates space. Where there is no matter there is no space. There is no “outside” the visible universe, although technology cannot yet see the edge and probably never will.

Besides that,…
…anything that can be counted, divided, or measured can’t be infinite.

 

[JimG]

If the universe is spherical, then there would be no edge, any more than one would find an edge on the two dimensional surface of the earth.

 

[JDaniel]

Nonsense. If I traveled in a rocket launched from Earth, circled the Sun, and returned to Earth all in one second, no more time than one second would have elapsed for me or anyone else. If I then took a telescope and looked at the sun, I would be able to see my rocket where it appears to have been seven minutes ago. Doesn’t mean I was actually traveling in space seven minutes ago. I was just traveling faster than light such that I got back to Earth before the light did.

Now, that would be a trip worth taking!

jd