Info on SDA (continued)

[Richard_Kastner]

Just quoting Ellen White. That’s all.

No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation. “Man turns from God, not God from him.” Our heavenly Father follows us with appeals and warnings and assurances of compassion, until further opportunities and privileges would be wholly in vain. The responsibility rests with the sinner. By resisting the Spirit of God today, he prepares the way for a second resistance of light when it comes with mightier power. Thus he passes on from one stage of resistance to another, until at last the light will fail to impress, and he will cease to respond in any measure to the Spirit of God. Then even “the light that is in thee” has become darkness. The very truth we do know has become so perverted as to increase the blindness of the soul. {MB 93.1}

“No man can serve two masters.” Matthew 6:24. Christ does not say that man will not or shall not serve two masters, but that he cannot. The interests of God and the interests of mammon have no union or sympathy. Just where the conscience of the Christian warns him to forbear, to deny himself, to stop, just there the worldling steps over the line, to indulge his selfish propensities. On one side of the line is the self-denying follower of Christ; on the other side is the self-indulgent world lover, pandering to fashion, engaging in frivolity, and pampering himself in forbidden pleasure. On that side of the line the Christian cannot go. (p. 94) {MB 93.2}

 No one can occupy a neutral position; there is no middle class, who neither love God nor serve the enemy of righteousness. Christ is to live in His human agents and work through their faculties and act through their capabilities. Their will must be submitted to His will; they must act with His Spirit. Then it is no more they that live, but Christ that lives in them. He who does not give himself wholly to God is under the control of another power, listening to another voice, whose suggestions are of an entirely different character. Half-and-half service places the human agent on the side of the enemy as a successful ally of the hosts of darkness. When men who claim to be soldiers of Christ engage with the confederacy of Satan, and help along his side, they prove themselves enemies of Christ. They betray sacred trusts. They form a link between Satan and the true soldiers, so that through these agencies the enemy is constantly working to steal away the hearts of Christ's soldiers. {MB 94.1} 

 The strongest bulwark of vice in our world is not the iniquitous life of the abandoned sinner or the degraded outcast; it is that life which otherwise appears virtuous, honorable, and noble, but in which one sin is fostered, one vice indulged. To the soul that is struggling in secret against some giant temptation, trembling upon the very verge of the precipice, such an example is one of the most powerful enticements to sin. He who, endowed with high conceptions of life and truth and honor, does yet willfully transgress one precept of God's holy law, has perverted His noble gifts into a lure to sin. Genius, talent, sympathy, even generous and kindly deeds, (p. 95) may become decoys of Satan to entice other souls over the precipice of ruin for this life and the life to come. {MB 94.2}

Me too.

 

[benidict]

Just for clarification…

It’s important to note that most Adventists are delightful people. The issue isn’t with the individual Adventists on a personal level**;** the issue is strictly with the SDA beliefs, which stem primarily from the teachings of Ellen G. White. By presenting Ellen White’s quotes, the goal isn’t to offend Adventists but, instead, is to show exactly what she has written**;** then the reader can make his own conclusions. Similarly, if this thread were entitled “Info on Mormonism,” then quotes from Joseph Smith would appropriately be presented.

May the Lord bless you with His will and His will alone.

personally i prefer to hang out with Mormons. i actually find them the more delightful of the two. lol! probably all the time i hung out in utah.and if you take on Joseph Smith, they have no problem using his writings, or defending them. i respect that. i have worked with alot of Adventist though. they seem to be huge in michigan where im from. just west of battle creek as a matter of fact. Peace

 

[benidict]

No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation. “Man turns from God, not God from him.” Our heavenly Father follows us with appeals and warnings and assurances of compassion, until further opportunities and privileges would be wholly in vain. The responsibility rests with the sinner. By resisting the Spirit of God today, he prepares the way for a second resistance of light when it comes with mightier power. Thus he passes on from one stage of resistance to another, until at last the light will fail to impress, and he will cease to respond in any measure to the Spirit of God. Then even “the light that is in thee” has become darkness. The very truth we do know has become so perverted as to increase the blindness of the soul. {MB 93.1}

“No man can serve two masters.” Matthew 6:24. Christ does not say that man will not or shall not serve two masters, but that he cannot. The interests of God and the interests of mammon have no union or sympathy. Just where the conscience of the Christian warns him to forbear, to deny himself, to stop, just there the worldling steps over the line, to indulge his selfish propensities. On one side of the line is the self-denying follower of Christ; on the other side is the self-indulgent world lover, pandering to fashion, engaging in frivolity, and pampering himself in forbidden pleasure. On that side of the line the Christian cannot go. (p. 94) {MB 93.2}

 No one can occupy a neutral position; there is no middle class, who neither love God nor serve the enemy of righteousness. Christ is to live in His human agents and work through their faculties and act through their capabilities. Their will must be submitted to His will; they must act with His Spirit. Then it is no more they that live, but Christ that lives in them. He who does not give himself wholly to God is under the control of another power, listening to another voice, whose suggestions are of an entirely different character. Half-and-half service places the human agent on the side of the enemy as a successful ally of the hosts of darkness. When men who claim to be soldiers of Christ engage with the confederacy of Satan, and help along his side, they prove themselves enemies of Christ. They betray sacred trusts. They form a link between Satan and the true soldiers, so that through these agencies the enemy is constantly working to steal away the hearts of Christ's soldiers. {MB 94.1} 

 The strongest bulwark of vice in our world is not the iniquitous life of the abandoned sinner or the degraded outcast; it is that life which otherwise appears virtuous, honorable, and noble, but in which one sin is fostered, one vice indulged. To the soul that is struggling in secret against some giant temptation, trembling upon the very verge of the precipice, such an example is one of the most powerful enticements to sin. He who, endowed with high conceptions of life and truth and honor, does yet willfully transgress one precept of God's holy law, has perverted His noble gifts into a lure to sin. Genius, talent, sympathy, even generous and kindly deeds, (p. 95) may become decoys of Satan to entice other souls over the precipice of ruin for this life and the life to come. {MB 94.2}

Me too.

and your point is? is this to show us the wisdom of E.G. White? instead of scripture are you now attempting to proseletyze with the writings of a gentile woman with no authority? you better not eat that one piece of chocolate cake richard. YOU BETTER NOT! after all, one vice is going to send you to the ever loving pit of hell! oh my goodness, some of my fellow soldiers are hooked on sunflower seeds! what shall we do! she is basically saying that anything enjoyable, that you like is going to damn you. if you indulge in a piece of chocolate cake richard, then your wrong! no wonder she pushed a bland diet of veggies. after all, we are not supposed to enjoy anything. your inspired leader, slaps the creator in the face with her teachings.i wonder what secret sin she struggled with…

 

[loneviking]

and your point is? is this to show us the wisdom of E.G. White? instead of scripture are you now attempting to proseletyze with the writings of a gentile woman with no authority? you better not eat that one piece of chocolate cake richard. YOU BETTER NOT! after all, one vice is going to send you to the ever loving pit of hell! oh my goodness, some of my fellow soldiers are hooked on sunflower seeds! what shall we do! she is basically saying that anything enjoyable, that you like is going to damn you. if you indulge in a piece of chocolate cake richard, then your wrong! no wonder she pushed a bland diet of veggies. after all, we are not supposed to enjoy anything. your inspired leader, slaps the creator in the face with her teachings.i wonder what secret sin she struggled with…

Well, there was the vinegar problem, and the oysters that even late in life she was still ordering! Along with several accounts of fried chicken being sneaked into her tent at campmeetings and such. And as much as she had to say about masterbation, well, you just have to wonder…

 

[benidict]

Well, there was the vinegar problem, and the oysters that even late in life she was still ordering! Along with several accounts of fried chicken being sneaked into her tent at campmeetings and such. And as much as she had to say about masterbation, well, you just have to wonder…

i was actually going to bring up the M word, and a correspondence she had with a man who came to her for help in stopping his self abuse. she took it upon herself, to soundly condemn the man, and tell him there was no hope. such a forgiving woman. interesting about the oysters. are they allowed by the Law? i thought shell fish were forbidden? and fried chicken? this looks like a real good case of do as i say, not as i doism. typical of these type of leaders. just look at david koresh, and such. you cannot sleep with your wife…but i sure can! wow! Peace

 

[loneviking]

i was actually going to bring up the M word, and a correspondence she had with a man who came to her for help in stopping his self abuse. she took it upon herself, to soundly condemn the man, and tell him there was no hope. such a forgiving woman. interesting about the oysters. are they allowed by the Law? i thought shell fish were forbidden? and fried chicken? this looks like a real good case of do as i say, not as i doism. typical of these type of leaders. just look at david koresh, and such. you cannot sleep with your wife…but i sure can! wow! Peace

Yeah, any of the critters on that long list over in the Torah are forbidden. I wouldn’t be so hard on her as trying to keep to those dietary rules is a real pain—except that she seemed to be so quick to condemn others for what they ate. She wrote a book called ‘Counsels on Diet and Foods’ that was full of all sorts of gems. The one that still makes me mad is that ‘God won’t hear the prayers of boys and girls who have meat on their table.’

And as for the ‘M’ word the book A Solemn Appeal to Mothers was written. E.G. White was getting messages from someone, but I can’t believe it was God.

 

[benidict]

Yeah, any of the critters on that long list over in the Torah are forbidden. I wouldn’t be so hard on her as trying to keep to those dietary rules is a real pain—except that she seemed to be so quick to condemn others for what they ate. She wrote a book called ‘Counsels on Diet and Foods’ that was full of all sorts of gems. The one that still makes me mad is that ‘God won’t hear the prayers of boys and girls who have meat on their table.’

And as for the ‘M’ word the book A Solemn Appeal to Mothers was written. E.G. White was getting messages from someone, but I can’t believe it was God.

do you think its possible she suffered from partial complex seziure disorder? my daughter suffers from this. she herself has not had visions, but has a strong sense of de javu. people who suffer from this, do often have visions that they think are from God or from angels. i dont read anywhere of E.G. White testing the spirits who were supposedly in communication with her. if not partial complex seziure disorder, this sounds eerily like automatic writing or other occult phenomena. i wonder if Joseph Bates taught her some of the occultic meditative techniques that can be found in the fraternal order he was a member of? your thoughts? by the way, i as a former baptist, dont think your ignorant at all. very similar mind set there. we both just SAW THE LIGHT! Peace to you and yours

 

[Ads]

Just for clarification…

It’s important to note that most Adventists are delightful people. The issue isn’t with the individual Adventists on a personal level**;** the issue is strictly with the SDA beliefs, which stem primarily from the teachings of Ellen G. White. By presenting Ellen White’s quotes, the goal isn’t to offend Adventists but, instead, is to show exactly what she has written**;** then the reader can make his own conclusions. Similarly, if this thread were entitled “Info on Mormonism,” then quotes from Joseph Smith would appropriately be presented.

May the Lord bless you with His will and His will alone.

Ok some quotes from Catholic’s –

Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today (1868), p. 213
“The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church.”

John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January, 1883.
“Protestantism, In discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath .”

The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

“The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”

The Catholic National, July, 1895.
“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh.”

The Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August, 1900.
“Sunday is a Catholic Institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. . . .From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”

Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, N.J. “News”, March 18, 1903.
“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.”

Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67. Also in Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58

"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?

"Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.’

Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore,
replying for Cardinal Gibbons in a letter, February 10, 1920.
“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday, they are following a law of the Catholic Church.”

Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927),p. 136.

“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday … Now the Church … instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.”

John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1936), vol. 1, P. 51.

“Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.”

The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, page 4.
“The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.”

 

[Ads]

Catholic Virginian Oct. 3, 1947, p. 9, art. “To Tell You the Truth.”

“For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible.”

Our Sunday Visitor, February 5, 1950.
“Protestants. . .accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change. . .But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that . . in observing the Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the church, the Pope.”

Peter Geiermann, C.S.S.R., The Converts Catechism of Catholic Doctrine (1957), p. 50.

"Question: Which is the Sabbath day?

"Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

"Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

“Answer. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.”

S.D. Moana, Storia della Domenica, 1969, pages 366-367.
Not the Creator of the Universe, In Geneses 2:1-3, —but the Catholic Church “can claim the honor of having granted man a pause to his work every seven days.”

Peter R. Kraemer, Catholic Church Extension Society (1975),Chicago, Illinois.

"Regarding the change from the observance of the Jewish Sabbath to the Christian Sunday, I wish to draw your attention to the facts:

"1) That Protestants, who accept the Bible as the only rule of faith and religion, should by all means go back to the observance of the Sabbath. The fact that they do not, but on the contrary observe the Sunday, stultifies them in the eyes of every thinking man.

"2) We Catholics do not accept the Bible as the only rule of faith. Besides the Bible we have the living Church, the authority of the Church, as a rule to guide us. We say, this Church, instituted by Christ to teach and guide man through life, has the right to change the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament and hence, we accept her change of the Sabbath to Sunday. We frankly say, yes, the Church made this change, made this law, as she made many other laws, for instance, the Friday abstinence, the unmarried priesthood, the laws concerning mixed marriages, the regulation of Catholic marriages and a thousand other laws.

“It is always somewhat laughable, to see the Protestant churches, in pulpit and legislation, demand the observance of Sunday, of which there is nothing in their Bible.”

It is quite clear that the Catholic position regarding the seventh day Sabbath has been unbending for over 400 years. Pleased to embarrass the Protestant world with their illogical departure from Biblical doctrine, the Roman Church has until very recent years continued to ridicule “the estranged bretheren” in this matter.

Surprisingly, on May 31, 1998 the Vatican took a strange new approach that dramatically altered its historical stand on the Saturday-Sunday issue. Pope John Paul II delivered his apostolic letter, Dies Domini, to the Catholic clergy. Subtitled “On Keeping the Lord’s Day Holy”, this treatise is composed of four chapters and 87 sections that appeal, not to the traditionally arrogant stance of Church authority, but to all the scriptural arguments previously used by Protestants!

The Dies Domini document concludes with the urging of all Christians to become politically responsible in order that they may “ensure that civil legislation respects their duty to keep Sunday holy.” This language is alarming and indicative of Rome’s true and unchanged modus operandi. The switch from Tradition to Scripture merely disarms her real intent to ultimately secure state support. A return to the Dark Ages, when the Church Universal ruled the courts and thrones of Europe, when Inquisition fires cleansed the land of heretics, when individual freedom of conscious and religious liberty was denounced as a threat and attacked by countless crusades–yes, the end of church-state separation would restore the papacy to it’s former “glory” and fully restore its deadly wound.

Fr. Leo Broderick, Saint Catherine Catholic Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. ‘The Day of the Lord’ (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church’s sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.

 

[loneviking]

do you think its possible she suffered from partial complex seziure disorder? my daughter suffers from this. she herself has not had visions, but has a strong sense of de javu. people who suffer from this, do often have visions that they think are from God or from angels. i dont read anywhere of E.G. White testing the spirits who were supposedly in communication with her. if not partial complex seziure disorder, this sounds eerily like automatic writing or other occult phenomena. i wonder if Joseph Bates taught her some of the occultic meditative techniques that can be found in the fraternal order he was a member of? your thoughts? by the way, i as a former baptist, dont think your ignorant at all. very similar mind set there. we both just SAW THE LIGHT! Peace to you and yours

I do think she suffered from partial complex seizure disorder. She was hit in the head and severely injured by a thrown rock when quite young. Did you know that she had a twin sister? Her sister never showed any abnormalities, and in fact never became an Adventist. As for Joseph Bates, I’ve never seen any evidence that he practiced any occultic arts. From what I’ve been able to dig out, once he became convinced E.White was a prophetess and became a part of the Advent movement, he severed all ties with his old lodge.

 

[me_again]

do you think its possible she suffered from partial complex seziure disorder? my daughter suffers from this. she herself has not had visions, but has a strong sense of de javu. people who suffer from this, do often have visions that they think are from God or from angels. i dont read anywhere of E.G. White testing the spirits who were supposedly in communication with her. if not partial complex seziure disorder, this sounds eerily like automatic writing or other occult phenomena. i wonder if Joseph Bates taught her some of the occultic meditative techniques that can be found in the fraternal order he was a member of? your thoughts? by the way, i as a former baptist, dont think your ignorant at all. very similar mind set there. we both just SAW THE LIGHT! Peace to you and yours

I’m loathe to discuss this any further because I don’t want to offend the individual SDAs who have visited, read and posted here. Having said that… It’s not about the individual SDAs but, instead, it’s about the doctrines and issues of Ellen G. White. For you SDAs who are reading this**:** Please don’t be offended at this discussion because it’s not about you but, instead, it’s about Ellen G. White.

Ellen White claimed to have fantastical visions that she claimed were from God Himself. That’s what makes all of this so controversial. We’ve already discussed (and provided sources for) visions where Ellen White claimed that the Second Coming would occur during the lifetime of her followers**;** this vision in itself is a warning flag because it did not come to pass e.g. it is a false prophecy and we know what the bible says about false prophets. The vision was a lie. Was Ellen White hoodwinked by the devil or was Ellen White a crafty woman who used religion to sustain her lifestyle with the tithes of her believers?

Again, this is not about individual Adventists who are simply trying to follow their hearts to the best of their understanding. It’s all about Ellen White and her mesmerizing ability to lead people down various paths of false doctrines, such as**:**

• Soul sleep
• The investigative judgment and attributing biblical significance to the year 1844.
• Espousing to abstain from O.T. unclean meats.
• Requirement to attend church on the Jewish Saturday sabbath instead of the Lord’s day (Sunday).
  The SDA list of strange doctrines is lengthy.

 

[firstmode]

Yes, such as your interpretation of Matt 16 is. That is NOT is not symbolic. It is to be taken literaly. Jesus was speaking only to Simon-Peter. He told him that from that point on he is to be the base for His establishing a Church. That is why Simon’s name was changed to Peter. And YES, Jesus is a rock. He is the rock of our faith and salvation. As that rock, which is used for building, he IS THE CORNERSTONE of His Church. In addition, as the base for Jesus’ Church, He also gave Simon-Peter the authority to bind and to loose. In other words He gave Simon-Peter the power and authority, as the visible head of His Church, to act in His name. The Church Fathers, scholars and theologians have known and understood this from the beginning.Only the SDA, Jack Chick. and Boetner, dispute this.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichim

Well, the Coptics, the Orthodox, the Gnostics, the Jacobites, the Assyrian Church of the east, and many other ancient Christianities reject this position on Peter as well…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Chapter 74
Gethsemane
[This chapter is based on Matt. 26:36-56; Mark 14:32-50; Luke 22:39-53; John 18:1-12.]
In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky. The city of pilgrims’ tents was hushed into silence.

Jesus had been earnestly conversing with His disciples and instructing them; but as He neared Gethsemane, He became strangely silent. He had often visited this spot for meditation and prayer; but never with a heart so full of sorrow as upon this night of His last agony. Throughout His life on earth He had walked in the light of God’s presence. When in conflict with men who were inspired by the very spirit of Satan, He could say, “He that sent Me is with Me: the Father hath not left Me alone; for I do always those things that please Him.” John 8:29. But now He seemed to be shut out from the light of God’s sustaining presence. Now He was numbered with the transgressors. The guilt of fallen humanity He must bear. Upon Him who knew no sin must be laid the iniquity of us all. So dreadful does sin appear to Him, so great is the weight of guilt which He must bear, that He is tempted to fear it will shut Him out forever from His Father’s love. Feeling how terrible is the wrath of God against transgression, He exclaims, “My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death.”

As they approached the garden, the disciples had marked the change that came over their Master. Never before had they seen Him so utterly

Page 686
sad and silent. As He proceeded, this strange sadness deepened; yet they dared not question Him as to the cause. His form swayed as if He were about to fall. Upon reaching the garden, the disciples looked anxiously for His usual place of retirement, that their Master might rest. Every step that He now took was with labored effort. He groaned aloud, as if suffering under the pressure of a terrible burden. Twice His companions supported Him, or He would have fallen to the earth.
Near the entrance to the garden, Jesus left all but three of the disciples, bidding them pray for themselves and for Him. With Peter, James, and John, He entered its secluded recesses. These three disciples were Christ’s closest companions. They had beheld His glory on the mount of transfiguration; they had seen Moses and Elijah talking with Him; they had heard the voice from heaven; now in His great struggle, Christ desired their presence near Him. Often they had passed the night with Him in this retreat. On these occasions, after a season of watching and prayer, they would sleep undisturbed at a little distance from their Master, until He awoke them in the morning to go forth anew to labor. But now He desired them to spend the night with Him in prayer. Yet He could not bear that even they should witness the agony He was to endure.

“Tarry ye here,” He said, “and watch with Me.”

He went a little distance from them–not so far but that they could both see and hear Him–and fell prostrate upon the ground. He felt that by sin He was being separated from His Father. The gulf was so broad, so black, so deep, that His spirit shuddered before it. This agony He must not exert His divine power to escape. As man He must suffer the consequences of man’s sin. As man He must endure the wrath of God against transgression.

Christ was now standing in a different attitude from that in which He had ever stood before. His suffering can best be described in the words of the prophet, “Awake, O sword, against My shepherd, and against the man that is My fellow, saith the Lord of hosts.” Zech. 13:7. As the substitute and surety for sinful man, Christ was suffering under divine justice. He saw what justice meant. Hitherto He had been as an intercessor for others; now He longed to have an intercessor for Himself.

As Christ felt His unity with the Father broken up, He feared that in His human nature He would be unable to endure the coming conflict with the powers of darkness. In the wilderness of temptation the destiny of the human race had been at stake. Christ was then conqueror. Now

Page 687
the tempter had come for the last fearful struggle. For this he had been preparing during the three years of Christ’s ministry. Everything was at stake with him. If he failed here, his hope of mastery was lost; the kingdoms of the world would finally become Christ’s; he himself would be overthrown and cast out. But if Christ could be overcome, the earth would become Satan’s kingdom, and the human race would be forever in his power. With the issues of the conflict before Him, Christ’s soul was filled with dread of separation from God. Satan told Him that if He became the surety for a sinful world, the separation would be eternal. He would be identified with Satan’s kingdom, and would nevermore be one with God.
And what was to be gained by this sacrifice? How hopeless appeared the guilt and ingratitude of men! In its hardest features Satan pressed the situation upon the Redeemer: The people who claim to be above all others in temporal and spiritual advantages have rejected You. They are seeking to destroy You, the foundation, the center and seal of the promises made to them as a peculiar people. One of Your own disciples, who has listened to Your instruction, and has been among the foremost in church activities, will betray You. One of Your most zealous followers will deny You. All will forsake You. Christ’s whole being abhorred the thought. That those whom He had undertaken to save, those whom He loved so much, should unite in the plots of Satan, this pierced His soul. The conflict was terrible. Its measure was the guilt of His nation, of His accusers and betrayer, the guilt of a world lying in wickedness. The sins of men weighed heavily upon Christ, and the sense of God’s wrath against sin was crushing out His life.

 

[Nicea325]

Ok some quotes from Catholic’s –

Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About the Protestantism of Today (1868), p. 213
“The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the [Catholic] church.”

John Gilmary Shea, American Catholic Quarterly Review, January, 1883.
“Protestantism, In discarding the authority of the (Roman Catholic) Church, has no good reasons for its Sunday theory, and ought logically to keep Saturday as the Sabbath .”

The Catholic Mirror, official publication of James Cardinal Gibbons, Sept. 23, 1893.

“The Catholic Church, . . . by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.”

The Catholic National, July, 1895.
“The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, but he is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under veil of flesh.”

The Catholic Press, Sydney, Australia, August, 1900.
“Sunday is a Catholic Institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles. . . .From beginning to end of Scripture there is not a single passage that warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.”

Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, N.J. “News”, March 18, 1903.
“It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.”

Daniel Ferres, ed., Manual of Christian Doctrine (1916), p.67. Also in Henry Tuberville, An Abridgment of the Christian Doctrine (1833 approbation), p.58

"Question: How prove you that the Church hath power to command feasts and holy days?

"Answer: By the very act of changing the Sabbath into Sunday, which Protestants allow of, and therefore they fondly contradict themselves, by keeping Sunday strictly, and breaking most other feasts commanded by the same Church.’

Albert Smith, chancellor of the Archdiocese of Baltimore,
replying for Cardinal Gibbons in a letter, February 10, 1920.
“If Protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath Day. In keeping the Sunday, they are following a law of the Catholic Church.”

Martin J. Scott, Things Catholics Are Asked About (1927),p. 136.

“Nowhere in the Bible is it stated that worship should be changed from Saturday to Sunday … Now the Church … instituted, by God’s authority, Sunday as the day of worship. This same Church, by the same divine authority, taught the doctrine of Purgatory long before the Bible was made. We have, therefore, the same authority for Purgatory as we have for Sunday.”

John Laux, A Course in Religion for Catholic High Schools and Academies (1936), vol. 1, P. 51.

“Some theologians have held that God likewise directly determined the Sunday as the day of worship in the New Law, that He Himself has explicitly substituted the Sunday for the Sabbath. But this theory is now entirely abandoned. It is now commonly held that God simply gave His Church the power to set aside whatever day or days she would deem suitable as Holy Days. The Church chose Sunday, the first day of the week, and in the course of time added other days as holy days.”

The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, page 4.
“The Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.”

Great PROOF-TEXTING! It is a good thing you are not a legit scholar,because your tactic is typical of all SDA!

 

[Nicea325]

Well, the Coptics, the Orthodox, the Gnostics, the Jacobites, the Assyrian Church of the east, and many other ancient Christianities reject this position on Peter as well…

Yeah and the Arians,Semi-Arians,Adoptionists,etc,etc all REJECTED the position on the Trinity and your point is…?

 

[Nicea325]

For example, nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles ordered that the Sabbath be changed from Saturday to Sunday. We have the commandment of God given to Moses to keep holy the Sabbath day, that is the 7th day of the week, Saturday. Today most Christians keep Sunday because it has been revealed to us by the[Roman Catholic] church outside the Bible."

And nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles COMMANDED that Christians must WORSHIP on Saturday.

And nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles COMMANDED that Christians must only follow the Bible…a compiled book not in existence until centuries later!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

And nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles COMMANDED that Christians must WORSHIP on Saturday.

Here’s where we are commanded to keep the Sabbath.

Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

And nowhere in the Bible do we find that Christ or the Apostles COMMANDED that Christians must only follow the Bible…a compiled book not in existence until centuries later!

The first books of the bible were written by Moses some 2,000 years before Christ. Jesus Himself called it the “Law and the Prophets”. And why wouldn’t we follow the bible? It is the WORD OF GOD. Jesus said

John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Why wouldn’t you if you can attain eternal life by getting to know our Savior through His inspired word. Do you only do things if you absolutely have to Nicea.

1Jn.3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the transgression of THE LAW. That would be the ten commandments.

Rom.6
12Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

The word reign there means in a regal sense. In other words we should not let sin become the king of our bodies. Why?

Rom.6
16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

I think this is pretty clear Nicea. If we sin we will DIE. If we are obedient, we will atain to the righteousness that was purchased for us on the cross.

 

[me_again]

Here’s where we are commanded to keep the Sabbath.

Ex.20
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. .

Richard, the above quote is from Exodus e.g. it’s from the Jews exodus (exit) from Egypt. As a result, the Lord told the Jews to honor Him by keeping the Saturday sabbath, as follows**:**

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard, the above quote is from Exodus e.g. it’s from the Jews exodus (exit) from Egypt. As a result, the Lord told the Jews to honor Him by keeping the Saturday sabbath, as follows**:**

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

Rom.9
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[me_again]

Richard, thank you for providing Ellen White’s embellished writings for examination.

Chapter 74
Gethsemane
[This chapter is based on Matt. 26:36-56; Mark 14:32-50; Luke 22:39-53; John 18:1-12.]
In company with His disciples, the Saviour slowly made His way to the garden of Gethsemane. The Passover moon, broad and full, shone from a cloudless sky.

Richard, how does Ellen White know that there were no clouds in the sky on that particular night? Is she embellishing (lying) or claiming to have had a vision about this?

Jesus had been earnestly conversing with His disciples and instructing them; but as He neared Gethsemane, He became strangely silent.

Richard, how does Ellen White know that the Lord Jesus became silent as He neared Gethsemane? Is Ellen White embellishing (lying) or did she claim to have a vision about this?

Upon Him who knew no sin must be laid the iniquity of us all. So dreadful does sin appear to Him, so great is the weight of guilt which He must bear, that He is tempted to fear it will shut Him out forever from His Father’s love.

Richard, how does Ellen White know that Jesus feared that the Father would “shut Him out forever”? Is she embellishing (lying) or claiming to have a vision?

As He proceeded, this strange sadness deepened; yet they dared not question Him as to the cause.

Richard, is Ellen White claiming to know that Jesus’ disciples didn’t ask Him any questions via a vision or is she embellishing?

His form swayed as if He were about to fall.

Richard, Ellen White’s claim that Jesus “swayed as if He were about to fall” is not sola scripture. Did she embellish or claim a vision?

He groaned aloud…

Again, is this embellishment or vision?

Twice His companions supported Him, or He would have fallen to the earth.

Embellishment or vision?

Christ’s soul was filled with dread of separation from God. Satan told Him that if He became the surety for a sinful world, the separation would be eternal.

Richard, how does Ellen White know that Satan said those specific words at that specific location? Embellishment or vision?