Info on SDA (continued)

[Javl]

oh yes me again! and i just thought of something else.(the lack of beer, and the sand seem to agree with me) anyhow. if E.G. White had been a prophetess in the the nation of israel back during the time of say…Joshua. she would have been stoned for her false prophecies. no ifs ands or buts. thats what the law called for, if a prophet got it wrong. stoning. heres my take. there was religious hyteria that swept through the north east. some would call it rivival, i would call that period of history a mess. anyhow, 3 groups came out of this upheaval. the Adventist, the Mormons, and the Jehovas witnesses. two of these groups instrumental founders were tied in with masonry. that would be the Mormons, and the Adventist. Charles taze russell actually had some dealings with the adventist, and took some of their ideas, when HE “discovered” the true meaning of the bible. but he was not tied into any fraternal organiztions that we are aware of. this is the result when there is spiritual chaos in an area. many come saying I AM HE, and deceive many. we were warned by the Lord that in the last days false prophets would arise and deceive many. these are 3 such instances. now if i see 2 in jerusalem preaching and calling down fire…well, thats a different story. if we are to take that literally. since i left the baptist, im not much into prophecy anymore. i prefer to learn to live in the here and now, and how to serve God and my neighbor, so i can prepare for the world to come. whenever that is. all i know is if 1000 years more go by, the Catholic Church will still be here. will the Adventist? doubtful. because just around the corner gets real old after awhile. Peace

BENEDICT:
First off, thank you very much for your words of encouragement. They are very much appreciated. Secondly, what you have said in this post is quite true. I should have realized it. All these “religious organizations” keep popping up, through the years, with “the truth” and all of them always vilify the Catholic Church. And yet, all these organizations sooner or later peter out and disappear. The Largest of which was Arianism which although some of the basiscs are still evident ( Jehovahs Witnesses, Christian Science ), it has virtually disappeared. And again in the 18th century Theosophy and Spiritism were rampant, and yet they’re virtually extinct. There have been myriads of heresies down thru the ages from the beginning, each and everyone condemning Catholicism, and yet, after 2000 years, where are they all? They may last a hundred years or so, but sooner or later all these all the others who claim to have “the truth” will join the rest in history as strictly an abberation. Now, if all this does not prove that Satan has been trying his best to destroy Jesus Christ’s Church, and that the Catholic Church is the One True Holy Church that Jesus founded on Peter, which has lasted for 2000 years, then Jesus is a good con man and my belief and faith has been in vain.

All these exotic “religions”, such as the Jehovahs Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists, Christian Science, etc., will all shine bright for a short period and then will fade from sight and memory. This has been proven in the past and will again be proven in the days to come.

Take care my friend. May God bless and keep you and let you return home safely. You are in my prayers.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CatholicLover]

oh i think these points are very relevant. we are talking about an unbroken line that can be traced back to the apostles, and Christ. the adventist have stated that their teachings are all biblically based, and that they can be traced back to the time of the apostles. when the facts are, they cannot trace any of their unique beliefs, including their view of the sabbath, beyond the supposed visions of E.G. White. to state that you are the Church Christ founded, is very relevant. you have not stated this, but others have. if i have to, i will go back and find these quotes.

As Adventists we don’t believe we are the church Christ founded, we believe we are the remnant church that keeps God’s commandments and is called out of Babylon spoken about in Revelation 12:17; 14:6-12; 18:1-4. What is the Catholic view on these texts?

the sabbath view you believe is that anyone who does not worship on this particular day, will at some point recieve the mark of the beast. this view was NEVER taught before E.G. Whites supposed visions. not by the apostles, not by the early Church fathers, not by anyone.

We’ve been debating the nature of the Sabbath for some time now and I believe that is the more important debate to have than the debate about the nature of the mark of the beast. The mark of the beast is certainly biblical (see Rev. 13: 16 - 17), Adventists believe the mark will be given to people who do not keep the Sabbath Holy. Rev. 14: 12 referring to those who do not worship the beast, its image or receive its mark says, “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.”

Again, what is the Catholic view of the mark of the beast?

you cannot defend the scapegoat doctrine, since that is a figment of imaginiation on the the part of your prophetess too. to come to the cleansing of the sanctuary doctrine you really have to deny alot of historical fulfillments to to daniel, and you really have to do some serious gymnastics biblically.

This doctrine refers to the scapegoat referred to in Leviticus 16:20. Adventists believe this scapegoat to represent Satan. Most Christians believe the scapegoat is Christ but there are good reasons to believe otherwise:
1 - The scapegoat was not slain as a sacrifice and therefore could not be used as a means of bringing forgiveness.
2 - The sanctuary was entirely cleansed by the blood of the Lord’s goat before the scapegoat was introduced into the ritual.
3 - Leviticus 16 treats the scapegoat as a personal being who is the opposite of, and opposed to, God.
This is all tied in with our understanding of the Sanctuary which is an excellent discussion to have.

these are not cheap shots. you still have not been able to give me ONE author who expounded Adventist teaching before the 1800s. if what the SDA teaches is correct, we would see authors all the way back expounding these beliefs. i can give you the answer though. the answer is ZERO. no SDA teachings prior to the 1800s. the burden is on you to produce them. Peace :coffeeread:

These beliefs are based in the Bible. As stated before, there are obviously no SDA teachings prior to the 1800s as there was no Adventist Church but every belief of the Adventist Church is in the Bible. I know what you are implying by repeatedly saying that there are no “author who expounded Adventist teaching before the 1800s” but your question itself is misleading because we maintain that all our teachings are based in the Bible (which definately was written prior to the 1800s).

 

[Javl]

Catholic Lover:

According to God, the Law and the Sabbath was made for the Jews alone: Ex 32:16-17*** “The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between ME and the ISRAELITES forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested.”***

Also, It DOES NOT say that Saturday must be kept as the Sabbath! Ex 32:15 "For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord.".

We work six days a week and keep the Sabbath on the seventh. Since our workweek begins on a Monday, this is the first day of our workweek and we keep the seventh day, which is Sunday, as the Sabbath. Therefore, we are not violating the law, even though it is not meant for Gentiles.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[RonTheNewJew]

Yes, SDA’s certainly do pick and choose what laws to follow. And if the Lord did not change, as Richard claims, then the SDA’s should be stoning those members of their congregations who don’t follow the Levitical laws. Richards claims are demonstrably wrong as clearly the way in which God deals with mankind changes. That doesn’t mean that God changes, merely that He uses different tools at different times to accomplish His goals.

If one wants to make a split between “Old” and “New Testaments,” it should be done by understanding that the Law twice by the Lord God to Moses at Sinai after it had been repeated several times earlier, was split into one permanent (Ten Commandments and the non-sacrificial statutes and judgements), and one temporary (the animal sacrificial system and the Temple and priesthood set up to administer the animal sacrificial system.

God said to Moses, after He gave Moses the Ten Commandments once again inscribed on the tables of stone and spoke to Moses the entirety of His ordinances, statutes and judgements, “I shall not alter the thing which has gone out of My lips.” This was/is the only “New Covenant” that God gave to anyone. He never again gave another Covenant with it’s set of laws, ordinances, statutes and judgements. Never again.

There is a big difference between the “Old Covenant” (the first one given at Mt. Sinai which was based on man’s promises of obedience, and the New one which was/is based on God’s promises as seen in Exodus 34 when God promised man pardon for breaking, and restoration to keeping His holy Law. Justification and Sanctification. Thus, the New Covenant was given during the “Old Testament” time. When Jesus ratified it with His own blood, that was the beginning of a change from when punishment for breaking God’s commandments was immediate, based on a trial system, to the new time when the unforgiven breaking of God’s commandments will be punished at the final White Throne judgement.

At least SDA’s correctly observe and keep much of the Everlasting (“perpetual”) Covenant, and seem to understand the great difference between seeing the Law as “a schoolmaster,” administering punishment for sin immediately after a civil/religious trial, and, on the other hand, to the time of God’s grace which allows humanity salvation through Justification and Sanctification God’ punishment wil come later as I mentioned in the paragraph just preceding this one.The moral Law, itself, has never changed. It is a transcript of God’s Character. That could never change.

Shalom alechem

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Catholic Lover:

According to God, the Law and the Sabbath was made for the Jews alone: Ex 32:16-17*** “The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between ME and the ISRAELITES forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He abstained from work and rested.”***

The question is who are the Israelites?

Rom.9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What promise is talked about here?

Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

What Gen 12:3 is talking about is the promise of the Messiah. So a true Israelite is one who believes God. Takes hold of the promise of the comming Messiah (old testament) or of the Messiah already come (new testament). As I have said before being a true Jew, child of Israel has nothing to do with ethnicity. What it has to do with is FAITH.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Also, It DOES NOT say that Saturday must be kept as the Sabbath! Ex 32:15 "For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord.".

Sure it does.
Luke23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Jesus died and was laid in the tomb on the Preperation day (good Friday). Rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women after they saw where Jesus lay went home and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

They returned on the FIRST DAY SUNDAY, to finish their WORK. Indicating that the CHRISTIANS closest to Jesus were keeping the Sabbath and working on Sunday. They were now the true children of Israel, which had God’s law written on their minds and hearts.

Heb.8
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And
Heb.10
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

We work six days a week and keep the Sabbath on the seventh. Since our workweek begins on a Monday, this is the first day of our workweek and we keep the seventh day, which is Sunday, as the Sabbath. Therefore, we are not violating the law, even though it is not meant for Gentiles.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem

The Lord only blessed one day, the seventh day, Saturday.

 

[Javl]

The question is who are the Israelites?

Rom.9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

What promise is talked about here?

Genesis 12
1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

What Gen 12:3 is talking about is the promise of the Messiah. So a true Israelite is one who believes God. Takes hold of the promise of the comming Messiah (old testament) or of the Messiah already come (new testament). As I have said before being a true Jew, child of Israel has nothing to do with ethnicity. What it has to do with is FAITH.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Galatians 3:6
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
James 2:23
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Sure it does.
Luke23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Jesus died and was laid in the tomb on the Preperation day (good Friday). Rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women after they saw where Jesus lay went home and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

They returned on the FIRST DAY SUNDAY, to finish their WORK. Indicating that the CHRISTIANS closest to Jesus were keeping the Sabbath and working on Sunday. They were now the true children of Israel, which had God’s law written on their minds and hearts.

Heb.8
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
And
Heb.10
16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

The Lord only blessed one day, the seventh day, Saturday.

The Israelites are ETHNIC Jews, NOT Gentiles. And Saturday IS NOT the day that was Blessed by the Lord. Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to so that you can prove yourself right. Be honest with scripture.

2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather round them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

This reminds me an awful lot of you and the rest of the SDA.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Richard_Kastner]

The Israelites are ETHNIC Jews, NOT Gentiles.

Rom.9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal.3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

True Jews are NOT ETHNIC Jews. But those that believe God are the children of the promise.

And Saturday IS NOT the day that was Blessed by the Lord. Stop twisting scripture to make it say what you want it to so that you can prove yourself right. Be honest with scripture.

2 Tim 4:3-4 "For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather round them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

This reminds me an awful lot of you and the rest of the SDA.
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem

Javl you can read it for yourself. The Sabbath in this passage comes between the first good Friday and the first Easter Sunday. If you say anythig differnt it is you who is twistng scripture.

Luke23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Jesus died and was laid in the tomb on the Preperation day (good Friday). Rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women after they saw where Jesus lay went home and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

It says what it says Javal. According to these scriptures the Sabbath is on Saturday no matter how much you don’t want it to be
.

 

[me_again]

Rom.9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal.3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

True Jews are NOT ETHNIC Jews. But those that believe God are the children of the promise.

Javl you can read it for yourself. The Sabbath in this passage comes between the first good Friday and the first Easter Sunday. If you say anythig differnt it is you who is twistng scripture.

Luke23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Jesus died and was laid in the tomb on the Preperation day (good Friday). Rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women after they saw where Jesus lay went home and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

It says what it says Javal. According to these scriptures the Sabbath is on Saturday no matter how much you don’t want it to be
.

The Saturday sabbath was for the Jews only**:**

Remember that you [Jews] were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

The Jews were required to stone (to death) those who violated the Jewish Saturday sabbath**:**

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the [Saturday] sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

The Old Covenant has been abolished and nailed to the cross of Calvary. A New Covenant has replaced it. Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the Lord’s day, which is Sunday.

 

[CatholicLover]

The Saturday sabbath was for the Jews only**:**

Remember that you [Jews] were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

I’ve addressed this more times than I care to count but once more… Just because God is speaking to the Isrealites in this verse does not change the fact that the Sabbath is for everyone. Since Creation, before anyone was a Jew God made the Sabbath day Holy and Sanctified it.

dictionary.com defines sanctify as:
*sanc·ti·fy   /ˈsæŋktəˌfaɪ/ Show Spelled[sangk-tuh-fahy]
–verb (used with object), -fied, -fy·ing.

1. to make holy; set apart as sacred; consecrate.
2. to purify or free from sin: Sanctify your hearts.
3. to impart religious sanction to; render legitimate or binding: to sanctify a vow.
4. to entitle to reverence or respect.
5. to make productive of or conducive to spiritual blessing. *

That sounds pretty important and permanent.

The Jews were required to stone (to death) those who violated the Jewish Saturday sabbath**:**

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the [Saturday] sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

The Old Covenant has been abolished and nailed to the cross of Calvary. A New Covenant has replaced it. Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the Lord’s day, which is Sunday.

As I stated a few posts ago:

There is a definate difference between the law and the punishment for breaking the law. The law is “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it Holy.” Not keeping the Sabbath day Holy is a sin. The punishment for that sin was being stoned to death.

Jesus’ sacrifice is sufficient to atone for our sins.
Heb 9:28 - “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”

 

[CatholicLover]

:hypno: really? from a reading of acts, it looks like they met every day. and celebrated the Eucharist together every day. also on sunday, they were to bring what they were going to give to the poor. Catholics still meet every day to share the Eucharist, and still have a poor box. why do the Adventist not meet every day of the week, and break bread as the apostles did? after all, we want to be biblical. yes? not to mention, that Paul would take any opportunity to preach. sabbath or not. it got so late one night, that a young man fell asleep, fell off the roof. the Apostles did not limit themselves to ONE day. Peace

In Acts 13:42-44 they were preaching in the synagogue, the were asked to speak more so they preached again on the next Sabbath. Jews AND Gentiles on the Sabbath. There is no mention here of Sunday or any other day of the week. Only Sabbath.
If you notice in Acts 13:14,15 Paul went to the synagogue on the Sabbath and sat down. He was there to worship but were asked to speak by the “leaders of the synagogue”. Paul and his companions were keeping the Sabbath.

In Acts 16:13 Paul was in Philippi and “On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer.”

Acts 17:2 In Thessalonica, “As what his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures.”

Acts 18:4 in Corinth, “Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue…”

Acts 20:7 (the account you mention when Eutychus fell from the window) is the only place in Acts that mentions the first day of the week, but it is not talking about Sunday. You have to remember that Sabbath is from sundown to sundown so the first day of the week they are talking about is actually our Saturday night. Notice “because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight.”

The record is clear even in the book of Acts. Paul and his companions were keeping the Sabbath day Holy. I’m sure they never passed up an opportunity to preach to willing listeners but it is clear that they were keeping the Sabbath Day. There is no indication here that they were worshipping on Sunday.

 

[RonTheNewJew]

Rom.9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal.3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

True Jews are NOT ETHNIC Jews. But those that believe God are the children of the promise.

Javl you can read it for yourself. The Sabbath in this passage comes between the first good Friday and the first Easter Sunday. If you say anythig differnt it is you who is twistng scripture.

Luke23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Jesus died and was laid in the tomb on the Preperation day (good Friday). Rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women after they saw where Jesus lay went home and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

It says what it says Javal. According to these scriptures the Sabbath is on Saturday no matter how much you don’t want it to be
.

To be a “True Jew,” one who follows Yeshua ha-Maschiach (Jesus, the Messiah), one can be both ethnic Jew, and because he or she believes in the Covenant that, though it was the second Covenant given to Moses, but with all the statutes and judgements, and the many various ordinances, the fact is that Jesus’ sacrifice and His blood ratified that Covenant, found in Exodus 34. It had not been ratified at the time if was given, with an animal sacrifice. Thus, it was offered by God to Israel to live by and share with the rest of mankind during the time before Christ. (ie. the time of the “Old Testament.”). The moral law, the Ten Commandments remain(ed) exactly as they were written by the finger of God the Son at Sinai when the first Covenant was made by man to God.

For the New (Perpetual) Covenant, the laws, ordinances, statutes and judgements that God the Son spoke to Moses were written by Moses in the Book of the Law, and hung “in the sides of the Ark of the Covenant.” Not outside it. Inside it, making it permanent because it explains how God expects His followers to keep the Ten Commandments.

There are some things, specifically spelled out in the Book of the Law, that are punishments which were to pass with the death of Jesus because they have to do with how the Law was administered before Jesus’ atoning sacrifice. That is how the Law was a “schoolmaster” before Christ came to earth. The moral Law remains, with the statutes and judgements. The statutes and judgements provide not only the Sabbath as a feast of the Perpetual Covenant, listed as such in Exodus 34, and the annual feasts with their specific salvational themes because they are not just for remembrances, but are prophetic “shadows of good things to come,” (Col. 2, 17), but those themes are also for Sabbath study and meditation.

Keeping God’s only Law will not, without faith in Jesus’ atoning sacrifice, will not save anyone. But, the only way to salvation is for one to have faith in that sacrifice and the justfication and sanctification it makes possible so that keeping God’s Law is not a burden but a real, heartfelt pleasure.

Baruch ata Elohim
Baruch El Shedai
Shalom

Oh, that they had done so. We would likely never have been born. But, given that we are here,

 

[CatholicLover]

From any concordance that I have refered to, it is said that the construction of the text follows Aramaic phraseology, usage, etc. Therefore the original had to have been in Aramaic and then translated into Greek. As for the play on words, that is strictly a translators “play on words” since in Aramaic words have no gender.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

There is no concensus that Matthew was written in Aramaic or any language other than Greek. According to Strongs Concordance “Matthew even reproduced about ninety percent of Mark”. There is no question that Mark was written in Greek therefore it is likely that Matthew was also written in Greek add to this the fact that the earliest manuscript available is Greek. The concensus in the sources I found is that the Greek is the only version that can be relied upon for the author’s original intent.

What concordance did you use that says it was likely written in Aramaic?

 

[loneviking]

Ronthenewjew:

If one wants to make a split between “Old” and “New Testaments,” it should be done by understanding that the Law twice by the Lord God to Moses at Sinai after it had been repeated several times earlier, was split into one permanent (Ten Commandments and the non-sacrificial statutes and judgements), and one temporary (the animal sacrificial system and the Temple and priesthood set up to administer the animal sacrificial system

O.K.----Show me from Scripture where the distinction between the temporary and the permanent is spelled out. All you’ve given me is a conclusion that isn’t based on any Scripture.

Ronthenewjew:

God said to Moses, after He gave Moses the Ten Commandments once again inscribed on the tables of stone and spoke to Moses the entirety of His ordinances, statutes and judgements, “I shall not alter the thing which has gone out of My lips.” This was/is the only “New Covenant” that God gave to anyone. He never again gave another Covenant with it’s set of laws, ordinances, statutes and judgements. Never again.

Hebrews 8:7 'For if that first covenant had been faultless, then there should have been no place sought for the second.

Gee, Ron, finding a verse that mentions both an old and new covenant wasn’t so hard. The verse even tells you that the first covenant had faults which was the reason for a second covenant. Go read your Bible before you write things that are so blatantly wrong!

 

[adrift]

There is no concensus that Matthew was written in Aramaic or any language other than Greek. According to Strongs Concordance “Matthew even reproduced about ninety percent of Mark”. There is no question that Mark was written in Greek therefore it is likely that Matthew was also written in Greek add to this the fact that the earliest manuscript available is Greek. The concensus in the sources I found is that the Greek is the only version that can be relied upon for the author’s original intent.

What concordance did you use that says it was likely written in Aramaic?

I am not fond of the johnny come lately “experts”. It is a moderenest view point that Mark was written first.

FROM THE FIRST BOOK OF THE COMMENTARY ON MATTHEW (EXCERPT FROM EUSEBIUS) +]
Concerning the four Gospels which alone are uncontroverted in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the Gospel according to Matthew, who was at one time a publican and afterwards an Apostle of Jesus Christ, was written first; and that he composed it in the Hebrew tongue and published it for the converts from Judaism. The second written was that according to Mark, who wrote it according to the instruction of Peter, who, in his General Epistle, acknowledged him as a son, saying, “The church that is in Babylon, elect together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.” And third, was that according to Luke, the Gospel commended by Paul, which he composed for the converts from the Gentiles. Last of all, that according to John.

This would be closer to the Apostles hence more likely to be accurate than those who live 2000 years later.

 

[RonTheNewJew]

Ronthenewjew:

“and the people said to Moses, all that the Lord has commanded, we will do.” This was man’s promise to God before Moses went up the mountain to receive the tables of stone whereon God the Son wrote the Ten Commandments (which the people knew beforehand as had been passed down to them from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), and whose (children of Israel) disobedience had caused them to be captive in Egypt for about 120 years after a long period of being persecuted).

The “fault” was not with God’s part of the first Covenant. A Covenant is an agreement between two parties. The Law of God was that which Israel could accept, or reject. The people who made the promise to God were unfaithful and weak. The second Covenant, with the same Ten Commandments, but with the addition of the ordinances, statutes and judgements of God was different in two ways:

A. God promised Moses and his people that He would forgive their trespasses, and provide a way for them to be both justified and sanctified. God did not say that when the first Covenant was agreed to.

B. The second Covenant was not ratified by the blood of any animal, and was not ratified until Jesus at the Last Seder celebration told His disciples: “This is My blood of the New Covenant” He hever gave any new set of Laws after the second Covenant given at Sinai.

That is the difference between the two Covenants. The Ten Commandments were the same in the Covenant where Israel made the promise, as they are in the second Covenant given at Sinai when God made the promises. Huge difference I would say.

Daniel, the prophet, said in chapter 9, vs. 27, “and He shall cause the sacrifice and oblation (offerings) to cease.” This is a direct reference to the animal sacrifices and the oil and grain offerings all of which pointed forward to the birth, life, death and resurrection of Yeshua ha-Maschiach (Jesus, the Messiah).

In Ezekiel, 36, vss. 26 and 27, the prophet says that “I will take from their flesh their hearts of stone. I will put within them hearts of flesh. I shall cause them to keep My laws, and walk in My statutes and judgements and DO them.” The only statutes and judgements that existed when Ezekiel gave his prophetic statements were contained in the Everlasting Covenant in Exodus 34.

Thus, the moral laws continue while the animal sacrifices and the other offerings for sin, were to cease. And, thus, the statutes and judgements were NOT part of the animal sacrificial system. They were, and are today, part of the moral Law, with the Ten Commandments as the headlines that are explained in the statutes and judgements.

The judgements contain the annual holy convocations; the feast days and periods of time right out of the Everlasting Covenant, Exodus 34.

I hope this helps you.

Shabbat Shalom

O.K.----Show me from Scripture where the distinction between the temporary and the permanent is spelled out. All you’ve given me is a conclusion that isn’t based on any Scripture.

Ronthenewjew:

Hebrews 8:7 'For if that first covenant had been faultless, then there should have been no place sought for the second.

Gee, Ron, finding a verse that mentions both an old and new covenant wasn’t so hard. The verse even tells you that the first covenant had faults which was the reason for a second covenant. Go read your Bible before you write things that are so blatantly wrong!

 

[loneviking]

Well, Ron, things are looking up! You’ve gone from a point of ‘no second covenant’ to at least admitting that there is a second covenant. Now, lets clear up a few problems with what you wrote:

“and the people said to Moses, all that the Lord has commanded, we will do.” This was man’s promise to God before Moses went up the mountain to receive the tables of stone

That promise was not made carelessly and without knowing what the covenant would be. I’m right now looking at my KJV Bible, in Exodus 20, where begins the recitation of the covenant and continuing over to chap. 24. There, the people say ‘all that the Lord hath said we will do, and be obedient’.

As an aside, there is only one reference to their being 10 statements on the stones. The other references refer to what was on the stone as being the covenant—which would include all 615 laws. Ex. 32:15 says that the tablets were written on both sides. Ex. 31:18 refers to them as ‘tablets of testimony’. It’s only in Deut. 10:4 that you find the reference to the Ten Commandments.

Ron, you also wrote:

God the Son wrote the Ten Commandments (which the people knew beforehand as had been passed down to them from Abraham, Isaac, Jacob (Israel), and whose (children of Israel) disobedience had caused them to be captive in Egypt for about 120 years after a long period of being persecuted).

Ron, the Apostle Paul who was trained by Gamiliel–who was one of the greatest Jewish scholars of the law absolutely refutes what you just wrote. Gal. 3:16,17:

'Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made, He saith not, And to thy see, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years aftercannot disannul…

Romans 5:13,14
For until the law sin was in the world: but sin in not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses…

The Mosaic covenant, handed down at Sinai of which the ten commandments was at the heart of it, was something new. It did not exist in the time of Abraham or any of the other patriarchs. It was not needed for sin and death to exist.

Galatians 4:24 has Paul flatly stating that there is a difference in the two covenants and that the covenant of Law from Sinai is unto bondage; but the previous promise made to Abraham (the new covenant in promise) is unto freedom.

Paul makes the contrast again in 2 Cor. 3:7-9:
'But if the ministration of death,** written and engraven in stones** was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

There can be no doubt that Paul is talking about the Ten Commandments and all of the other laws that went into the covenant. Paul expressly says that they were to be done away with.

Ron—I’m a former SDA. Third generation on my mothers side; educated in SDA schools up to college; learned theology from several well known SDA theologians; served as a local elder in several congregations; taught Bible classes. I know where you are coming from; I know the arguments you will use forward and backwards. Ron, stop arguing and try listening and reading. Aren’t you the least bit curious as to why someone like me and the dozen or so other former SDA’s on this forum walked away from the teachings that both SDA’s and Messianics espouse?

 

[loneviking]

BTW Ron, when you wrote this:

The moral Law, itself, has never changed. It is a transcript of God’s Character. That could never change.

you are showing your SDA connections. That idea that it’s a transcript of Gods’ character is an ‘Ellinism’…it was written by E.G. White and you will not find that idea ever given credence anywhere in the Bible.

I wish you Gods’ peace, and much time for study!

 

[Ads]

thank you for sharing, and i see your screen name, is SDA spelled backwards. your were not slick enough. so come out of the closet, and put adventist up on your affiliation. glad to have you here too! im gonna ask you a similar question i have asked others. i cant get a clear answer. actually a few questions. bear with me. 1 since the law has not been changed, are you able to keep all 600 plus commandments? also since the law has not been changed, do you agree with the murderers at salem who put to death “witches”? also were you aware, that if E.G. White, had been an israelite, and prophesied as she did, that she would have been stoned as a false prophet, according to the same law? now, have changes been made, or shall we start stoning the sabbath breakers? also how are familiar are you with all the property laws in the old covenant? do you believe it is ok to have more than one wife? did you know, that if one of the wives is unloved, HER first born son is to inheiret, reguardless if the other wife had a son before him? were you aware, that the concoction the priest brewed, when a woman was suspected of adultry by her husband, induced an abortion? just some thoughts. i just felt a need to share. Peace

Love the way you ended your speach lol cute, but no i’m not going to get into all this, it’s not aimed at arriving at truth but only debate.
I just love to read the SDA answers and learn the Bible from them, and ads is short for Adam, just thought i’d share.

 

[me_again]

It’s worth repeating because it’s the Word of God. The Saturday sabbath was for the Jews only**:**

Remember that you [Jews] were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

The Jews were required to stone (to death) those who violated the Jewish Saturday sabbath**:**

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the [Saturday] sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

The Old Covenant has been abolished and nailed to the cross of Calvary. A New Covenant has replaced it. Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the Lord’s day, which is Sunday.

 

[adrift]

It’s worth repeating because it’s the Word of God. The Saturday sabbath was for the Jews only**:**

Remember that you [Jews] were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

The Jews were required to stone (to death) those who violated the Jewish Saturday sabbath**:**

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the [Saturday] sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

The Old Covenant has been abolished and nailed to the cross of Calvary. A New Covenant has replaced it. Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the Lord’s day, which is Sunday.

Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 all indicate that Christians were honoring the first day of the week as their day of worship. Just like the Church said that circumcision was no longer necessary it also declared that the day of worship would be Sunday. If the Church could not change the day of worship, then it could not change the requirement of circumcision.