Info on SDA (continued)

[CatholicLover]

It’s worth repeating because it’s the Word of God. The Saturday sabbath was for the Jews only**:**

Remember that you [Jews] were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

The Jews were required to stone (to death) those who violated the Jewish Saturday sabbath**:**

And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the [Saturday] sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36)

The Old Covenant has been abolished and nailed to the cross of Calvary. A New Covenant has replaced it. Christians celebrate the resurrection of Jesus on the Lord’s day, which is Sunday.

Let’s try it this way since you ignored my post altogether and simply repeated your post. When would you say the change took place? What are your sources?

Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 all indicate that Christians were honoring the first day of the week as their day of worship. Just like the Church said that circumcision was no longer necessary it also declared that the day of worship would be Sunday. If the Church could not change the day of worship, then it could not change the requirement of circumcision.

Acts 20:7 - I already addressed. “On the first day of the week” refers to Saturday between sundown and midnight. The Jews (and much of the ancient world) counted their days from sundown to sundown. The Sabbath, the 7th day, began at sundown on what we know as Friday and ended at sundown on Saturday. That means the first day began at sundown on Saturday. They were “breaking bread” after sundown on Saturday. v. 8 - “There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.” Breaking bread in this context is just another way to say they were eating together. It was a common term to describe something common. Here are some other examples from the same book:

• Acts 2:46; Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts
  Acts 27:35 - After he said this, he took some bread and gave thanks to God in front of them all. Then he broke it and began to eat. 36They were all encouraged and ate some food themselves.*

1 Corinthians 16:2 - Is an instruction to save money for collections. It is not an instruction to give money on the first day of the week. It is an instruction to “set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collectoins will have to be made.” Paul is asking for a collection to give to the poor in Jerusalem. He is asking them to get the money ready so when he gets there he will not have to wait for the collection to be made. It says nothing about the synagogue, worshipping or preaching in this text.

Colossians 2:16,17 - (NIV) “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.”

There is a difference between the ceremonial sabbaths in Leviticus and the Sabbath of the Lord (see Leviticus 23: 37, 38). Colossians 2: 16,17 is referring to the ceremonial sabbaths that were nailed to the cross. Notice the original Greek word for sabbaths in this verse is plural, it is talking about sabbath days. It is not referring to the Sabbath of the Lord. Paul is referring to the temporary system of ordinances in Colossians 2:14-16. He tied it to the meat offerings, drink offerings and yearly festivals of the law that were “blotted out.” So, while the ceremonial law was nailed to the Cross, the 7th day Sabbath was not.

Revelation 1:10 - “On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet”. I don’t see where the “Lord’s Day” is identified anywhere in the Bible as Sunday. On the contrary:

Matthew 12:8 - “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:28 - “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Luke 6:5 - "Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

The evidence is clear, there is no place in the Bible that replaces the Sabbath with Sunday. There is no evidence of the Apostles worshipping on Sunday. If you believe the Catholic Church had the authority to change the Sabbath day or replace it, just say so and we can stop going around in circles about whether it is Biblical.

 

[adrift]

Acts 20:7 - I already addressed. “On the first day of the week” refers to Saturday between sundown and midnight. The Jews (and much of the ancient world) counted their days from sundown to sundown. The Sabbath, the 7th day, began at sundown on what we know as Friday and ended at sundown on Saturday. That means the first day began at sundown on Saturday. They were “breaking bread” after sundown on Saturday. v. 8 - “There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.” Breaking bread in this context is just another way to say they were eating together. It was a common term to describe something common. Here are some other examples from the same book:

But they counted it as Sunday not Saturday. The breaking of the bread is not just eating together. It was the Eucharist as numerous versus tell us.

1 Corinthians 16:2 - Is an instruction to save money for collections. It is not an instruction to give money on the first day of the week. It is an instruction to “set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collectoins will have to be made.” Paul is asking for a collection to give to the poor in Jerusalem. He is asking them to get the money ready so when he gets there he will not have to wait for the collection to be made. It says nothing about the synagogue, worshipping or preaching in this text.

All of what you is true up to a point. It does say that this is for the first day of the week. Why would he say that unless it was because everyone gathered together then to share the Eucharist.

There is a difference between the ceremonial sabbaths in Leviticus and the Sabbath of the Lord (see Leviticus 23: 37, 38). Colossians 2: 16,17 is referring to the ceremonial sabbaths that were nailed to the cross. Notice the original Greek word for sabbaths in this verse is plural, it is talking about sabbath days. It is not referring to the Sabbath of the Lord. Paul is referring to the temporary system of ordinances in Colossians 2:14-16. He tied it to the meat offerings, drink offerings and yearly festivals of the law that were “blotted out.” So, while the ceremonial law was nailed to the Cross, the 7th day Sabbath was not.

Your interpretation. However this is what the word means in Greek

4521
sabbaton
sabbasin
4521 sabbaton {sab’-bat-on} of Hebrew origin 07676; TDNT - 7:1,989; n n 1) the seventh day of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work 1a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every seventh day of the week 1b) a single sabbath, sabbath day 2) seven days, a week

It is indeed referring to the Jewish Sabbath.

Revelation 1:10 - “On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet”. I don’t see where the “Lord’s Day” is identified anywhere in the Bible as Sunday. On the contrary:

Matthew 12:8 - “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:28 - “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Luke 6:5 - "Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

The Lords day is when Jesus rose from the dead. Is it defined in the Bible no. But neither is it defined as the Sabbath. In fact, John would have said Sabbath if that is truly what he meant.

The evidence is clear,

Actually the evidence goes against you. The fact that Sunday became the day of worship. If the evidence was clear as you think we would all have the same interpretation. You explain away the evidence against your position.

there is no place in the Bible that replaces the Sabbath with Sunday. There is no evidence of the Apostles worshipping on Sunday. If you believe the Catholic Church had the authority to change the Sabbath day or replace it, just say so and we can stop going around in circles about whether it is Biblical.

Just because you say there isn’t doesn’t make it so. Of course the Catholic Church had the authority as been stated numerous times. Did you miss it.

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

 

[adrift]

Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD] Epistle to the Magnesians
“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath,* but living in the observance of the Lord’s day, on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

The Letter of Barnabas [70-90 AD] Epistle of Barnabas
“We keep the eighth day [Sunday] with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead” (Letter of Barnabas 15:6–8 [A.D. 74]).

Didache, The [70-100 AD] The Didache
“But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned” (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).Read More

Origen [185-254 AD] Commentary on the Gospel of John (Book II)
“Hence it is not possible that the [day of] rest after the Sabbath should have come into existence from the seventh [day] of our God. On the contrary, it is our Savior who, after the pattern of his own rest, caused us to be made in the likeness of his death, and hence also of his resurrection” (Commentary on John 2:28 [A.D. 229]).

Eusebius of Caesarea [265-340 AD] Church History (Book IV)
"[T]he day of his [Christ’s] light . . . was the day of his resurrection from the dead, which they say, as being the one and only truly holy day and the Lord’s day

, is better than any number of days as we ordinarily understand them, and better than the days set apart by the Mosaic law for feasts, new moons, and Sabbaths, which the apostle [Paul] teaches are the shadow of days and not days in reality" (Proof of the Gospel 4:16:186 [A.D. 319]).

 

[adrift]

Acts 20:7 - I already addressed. “On the first day of the week” refers to Saturday between sundown and midnight. The Jews (and much of the ancient world) counted their days from sundown to sundown. The Sabbath, the 7th day, began at sundown on what we know as Friday and ended at sundown on Saturday. That means the first day began at sundown on Saturday. They were “breaking bread” after sundown on Saturday. v. 8 - “There were many lamps in the upstairs room where we were meeting.” Breaking bread in this context is just another way to say they were eating together. It was a common term to describe something common. Here are some other examples from the same book:

I know you think this is pat but it is not.

On the first day of the week only refers to somewhere between sundown Saturday and sundown Sunday. Paul says that he will be leaving the next day which would not be between sundown Sunday and midnight but probably Monday morning. Why would the idea of midnight be a concern? Saturday midnight and Monday morning is at least thirty hours. I doesn’t make sense but it would if it was Sunday afternoon before sundown. It would still be the Sabbath. It does not say that the midnight would still be Sabbath. He didn’t talk until midnight Saturday but midnight Sunday.

Acts Chapter 2
42: And they devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers.

They devoted themselves to the breaking of bread is odd if it is only a meal.

1 Corinthians Chapter 11
24: and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, “This is my body which is for you.** Do this in remembrance of me**.”

Hebrews Chapter 8
1: Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2: a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord. 3: For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.

 

[CatholicLover]

But they counted it as Sunday not Saturday. The breaking of the bread is not just eating together. It was the Eucharist as numerous versus tell us.

And what of these texts? They would seem to indicate that “breaking bread” was referring to a meal:
Acts 2:46; Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts
Acts 27:35 - After he said this, he took some bread and gave thanks to God in front of them all. Then he broke it and began to eat. 36They were all encouraged and ate some food themselves.

All of what you is true up to a point. It does say that this is for the first day of the week. Why would he say that unless it was because everyone gathered together then to share the Eucharist.

Sunday was the first day of the work week. Each person was to “set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income”. It would be improper to do this on the Sabbath. “saving it up” So he wasn’t collecting it on Sunday at any rate, He wanted the money to be ready “when I come”. This verse does not say anything about sharing the Eucharist.

Your interpretation. However this is what the word means in Greek

It is indeed referring to the Jewish Sabbath.

You are correct, it is referring to the Jewish Sabbath, I mistated the verse I was talking about. When I wrote:

There is a difference between the ceremonial sabbaths in Leviticus and the Sabbath of the Lord (see Leviticus 23: 37, 38). Colossians 2: 16,17 is referring to the ceremonial sabbaths that were nailed to the cross.

I should have noted Colossians 2:14 as referring to the ceremonial sabbaths. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

This part of my post remains true:

Paul is referring to the temporary system of ordinances in Colossians 2:14-16. He tied it to the meat offerings, drink offerings and yearly festivals of the law that were “blotted out.” So, while the ceremonial law was nailed to the Cross, the 7th day Sabbath was not.

The Colossians were having difficulty believing that Christs sacrifice was sufficient to atone for their sins. They were sinful and were trying to atone for their sinful nature on their own. Paul is reminding them who Christ is and of the power of his sacrifice to erase our sins.

v. 14 “having cancelled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us” v. 15 “And having disarmed the powers and authorities” v. 16 “Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.”

These verses do not say that we should not keep the Sabbath day, Paul is telling the Colossians that they should not let anyone else judge them for HOW they keep the Sabbath day.

The Lords day is when Jesus rose from the dead. Is it defined in the Bible no. But neither is it defined as the Sabbath. In fact, John would have said Sabbath if that is truly what he meant.

It actually is defined in the Bible and I gave you the texts to show you. Here they are again:
Matthew 12:8 - “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:28 - “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Luke 6:5 - "Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

Actually the evidence goes against you. The fact that Sunday became the day of worship. If the evidence was clear as you think we would all have the same interpretation. You explain away the evidence against your position.

Is the evidence you are referring to the fact that the Church eventually did begin worshipping on Sunday? I asked me again this so I’ll ask you to. When was it changed? What is your source?

All the evidence supporting the fact showing that there has been no change to the 7th Day Sabbath is found in the Bible. There is no evidence showing that it has been changed in the Bible.

Just because you say there isn’t doesn’t make it so. Of course the Catholic Church had the authority as been stated numerous times. Did you miss it.

I didn’t miss the numerous claims of authority made regarding the Catholic Church’s authority. You can’t have it both ways though, the change to the Sabbath day and Sunday is either contained in the Bible or it was made by the Catholic Church.

 

[me_again]

Let’s try it this way since you ignored my post altogether and simply repeated your post. When would you say the change took place? What are your sources?

Acts 20:7 - I already addressed. “On the first day of the week” refers to Saturday between sundown and midnight. The Jews (and much of the ancient world) counted their days from sundown to sundown.
adrift;6923730:

But they counted it as Sunday not Saturday. The breaking of the bread is not just eating together. It was the Eucharist as numerous versus tell us.

Amen adrift. This is very insightful of you.

The Old Covenant was done away with and the New Covenant was implemented. The Jews who rejected Jesus continued to gather in the synagogues on Saturdays, while the Christians gathered on Sundays to celebrate the risen Lord Jesus Christ in the form of the Eucharist. The Jews clung to the Old Covenant, to include the Saturday sabbath, while the Christians embraced the New Covenant, as is evidenced by the rising of our Lord from the dead.

Ellen Gould White has hoodwinked the Adventists with her false prophecies and her embracing of the Old Covenant standards over the New Covenant freedoms. That is an abomination because Ellen has enslaved the minds of many Adventist under the curse of the Old Covenant with her Satanic theologies and promises.

The most disgusting false prophecy of Ellen G. White was when she promised the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ was coming in the lifetime of her followers**;** and she promised them that they would not die because they would be “translated” at His coming. Ellen’s prophecy failed, but some of the hard-headed Adventists blame her false prophecy on the inability of people to be “good enough” for the Lord to return to translate them.

 

[Javl]

Rom.9
6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Gal.3
6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

True Jews are NOT ETHNIC Jews. But those that believe God are the children of the promise.

Javl you can read it for yourself. The Sabbath in this passage comes between the first good Friday and the first Easter Sunday. If you say anythig differnt it is you who is twistng scripture.

Luke23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Jesus died and was laid in the tomb on the Preperation day (good Friday). Rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women after they saw where Jesus lay went home and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

It says what it says Javal. According to these scriptures the Sabbath is on Saturday no matter how much you don’t want it to be
.

Richard:

Say what you will to convince yourself that you are right. THE SABBATH WAS, AND IS, NOT A SATURDAY!!! From the beginning of Creation it has been the seventh day after six days of work. God DID NOT GIVE THE DAYS ANY NAMES for identification. They were known only as the “first day”, “second day”, “third day”, etc. The Jews worked for six days and worshipped on the “seventh day”. Which day was that? WE DO NOT KNOW!

About the year 25 BC ( CE, give or take ) Julius Caesar, as Emperor of the “world” at the time, decided arbitrarily to name the days after the Roman gods to avoid confusion of the days and time for matters of trade, politics, and worship of the gods. Therefore the days were named Sunday, after Sol Invictus, Moon Day ( Monday ) after Luna, and so on. Which days were named which, again we don’t know since there is no accurate record.

Since the Jews were under the rule of Rome, and to conform with the rest of the empire in matters of trade, they adopted the names. They accepted and named Sunday as the first day of the week and Saturday as the seventh. Thus Saturday became the Sabbath for THE JEWS ALONE. This day became fixed as the Sabbath in rabbinical Judaism.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[adrift]

And what of these texts? They would seem to indicate that “breaking bread” was referring to a meal:
Acts 2:46; Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts
Acts 27:35 - After he said this, he took some bread and gave thanks to God in front of them all. Then he broke it and began to eat. 36They were all encouraged and ate some food themselves.

.

This is such a long post. Forgive me if I take in pieces and not all at once.
In Acts 2:46 note that they broke bread AND ate together. It is referring to two different acts. Breaking of the bread was honoring Jesus’ request of rememberance what we call the Eucharist.
The fact that they had a meal together is true but it was more than just a meal it was commeration of the meal Jesus shared with His Apostles. They ate AND they broke bread two differnt actions.
1 Cor 10:16

The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?

1 Cor 11:27-29

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

 

[CatholicLover]

I know you think this is pat but it is not.

On the first day of the week only refers to somewhere between sundown Saturday and sundown Sunday. Paul says that he will be leaving the next day which would not be between sundown Sunday and midnight but probably Monday morning. Why would the idea of midnight be a concern? Saturday midnight and Monday morning is at least thirty hours. I doesn’t make sense but it would if it was Sunday afternoon before sundown. It would still be the Sabbath. It does not say that the midnight would still be Sabbath. He didn’t talk until midnight Saturday but midnight Sunday.
They devoted themselves to the breaking of bread is odd if it is only a meal.

Perhaps there are places in the New Testament that refers to breaking bread in connection with communion. There are also places that refer to breaking bread when they are in fact eating a meal. There is nothing in the Bible that shows it took place only on a Sunday and indeed, Jesus did not instruct his disciples to do it as part of a worship service. Acts 2 does not say they were worshipping on Sunday, it says they were meeting every day of the week. It doesn’t sound as if Sunday was set apart from other days for worship. In contrast there is plenty of evidence that the apostles continued to worship on the Sabbath.

 

[CatholicLover]

Amen adrift. This is very insightful of you.

The Old Covenant was done away with and the New Covenant was implemented. The Jews who rejected Jesus continued to gather in the synagogues on Saturdays, while the Christians gathered on Sundays to celebrate the risen Lord Jesus Christ in the form of the Eucharist. The Jews clung to the Old Covenant, to include the Saturday sabbath, while the Christians embraced the New Covenant, as is evidenced by the rising of our Lord from the dead.

Ellen Gould White has hoodwinked the Adventists with her false prophecies and her embracing of the Old Covenant standards over the New Covenant freedoms. That is an abomination because Ellen has enslaved the minds of many Adventist under the curse of the Old Covenant with her Satanic theologies and promises.

The most disgusting false prophecy of Ellen G. White was when she promised the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ was coming in the lifetime of her followers**;** and she promised them that they would not die because they would be “translated” at His coming. Ellen’s prophecy failed, but some of the hard-headed Adventists blame her false prophecy on the inability of people to be “good enough” for the Lord to return to translate them.

No sources for any of this?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard:

Say what you will to convince yourself that you are right. THE SABBATH WAS, AND IS, NOT A SATURDAY!!! From the beginning of Creation it has been the seventh day after six days of work. God DID NOT GIVE THE DAYS ANY NAMES for identification. They were known only as the “first day”, “second day”, “third day”, etc. The Jews worked for six days and worshipped on the “seventh day”. Which day was that? WE DO NOT KNOW!

About the year 25 BC ( CE, give or take ) Julius Caesar, as Emperor of the “world” at the time, decided arbitrarily to name the days after the Roman gods to avoid confusion of the days and time for matters of trade, politics, and worship of the gods. Therefore the days were named Sunday, after Sol Invictus, Moon Day ( Monday ) after Luna, and so on. Which days were named which, again we don’t know since there is no accurate record.

Since the Jews were under the rule of Rome, and to conform with the rest of the empire in matters of trade, they adopted the names. They accepted and named Sunday as the first day of the week and Saturday as the seventh. Thus Saturday became the Sabbath for THE JEWS ALONE. This day became fixed as the Sabbath in rabbinical Judaism.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Again you deny the word of God. These vs. are clear.The Sabbath in this passage comes between the first good Friday and the first Easter Sunday. If you say anything differnt it is you who is twistng scripture.

Luke23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Jesus died and was laid in the tomb on the Preperation day (good Friday). Rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women after they saw where Jesus lay went home and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

It says what it says Javal. According to these scriptures the Sabbath is on Saturday no matter how much you don’t want it to be. Why don’t you just accept it. You wrest scripture to your own destruction.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

.

 

[adrift]

The Colossians were having difficulty believing that Christs sacrifice was sufficient to atone for their sins. They were sinful and were trying to atone for their sinful nature on their own. Paul is reminding them who Christ is and of the power of his sacrifice to erase our sins.

I don’t believe that this was the Colossians problem.

Colossians 2:4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ.

So it seems that they are being warned against false teachings.
Christ’s gospel is all they need. Jesus on the cross eliminated the Law exposing false claims of salvation. They are not to be judged on what they eat or drink. They are not to be judged how the feast or kept or how Sabbath is kept. All this must have been in discussion.
."

These verses do not say that we should not keep the Sabbath day, Paul is telling the Colossians that they should not let anyone else judge them for HOW they keep the Sabbath day.

I agree with you here what I don’t agree with is that they were observing the Sabbath. It doesn’t say they were.

It actually is defined in the Bible and I gave you the texts to show you. Here they are again:
Matthew 12:8 - “For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Mark 2:28 - “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
Luke 6:5 - "Then Jesus said to them, “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”
Is the evidence you are referring to the fact that the Church eventually did begin worshipping on Sunday? I asked me again this so I’ll ask you to. When was it changed? What is your source?

Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath does not translate into The Day of the Lord
Post 81 gives proof of what the true meaning of the Lord’s Day.

All the evidence supporting the fact showing that there has been no change to the 7th Day Sabbath is found in the Bible. There is no evidence showing that it has been changed in the Bible.

That is just not true. Post 82 demonstrates that there is scripture that you are ignoring.

I didn’t miss the numerous claims of authority made regarding the Catholic Church’s authority. You can’t have it both ways though, the change to the Sabbath day and Sunday is either contained in the Bible or it was made by the Catholic Church.

There isn’t an either or situation. You make a distinction that is not there. The Bible is the product of the Catholic Church. So if it is in the Bible it is made by the Church.

 

[adrift]

Again you deny the word of God. These vs. are clear.The Sabbath in this passage comes between the first good Friday and the first Easter Sunday. If you say anything differnt it is you who is twistng scripture.

.

Do yuu really not understand the point being made. It doesn’t seem so. It is not being argued that at the time of Jesus that the Sabbath was a Saturday but that it you cannot know if it was a Saturday through out time.

 

[adrift]

Perhaps there are places in the New Testament that refers to breaking bread in connection with communion. There are also places that refer to breaking bread when they are in fact eating a meal. There is nothing in the Bible that shows it took place only on a Sunday and indeed, Jesus did not instruct his disciples to do it as part of a worship service. Acts 2 does not say they were worshipping on Sunday, it says they were meeting every day of the week. It doesn’t sound as if Sunday was set apart from other days for worship. In contrast there is plenty of evidence that the apostles continued to worship on the Sabbath.

Actually they all refer to a meal. The Christians would gather together and have a meal and also break bread which was the way they said having communion. That they did this on the first day of the week is so stated. I am afraid if you are trying to make a point that it could be any day doesn’t impress much. We do have the Euchrist everyday. For awhile, the worship in the temple continued but they also got together on Sunday.
Around the years 80–90, Christians were thrown out of the synagogues. Do you really believe that the Gentile converts worshiped on the Sabbath. Please cite the verse that demonstrates this

 

[adrift]

Originally Posted by me again
Amen adrift. This is very insightful of you.

The Old Covenant was done away with and the New Covenant was implemented. The Jews who rejected Jesus continued to gather in the synagogues on Saturdays, while the Christians gathered on Sundays to celebrate the risen Lord Jesus Christ in the form of the Eucharist. The Jews clung to the Old Covenant, to include the Saturday sabbath, while the Christians embraced the New Covenant, as is evidenced by the rising of our Lord from the dead.

Ellen Gould White has hoodwinked the Adventists with her false prophecies and her embracing of the Old Covenant standards over the New Covenant freedoms. That is an abomination because Ellen has enslaved the minds of many Adventist under the curse of the Old Covenant with her Satanic theologies and promises.

The most disgusting false prophecy of Ellen G. White was when she promised the Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ was coming in the lifetime of her followers; and she promised them that they would not die because they would be “translated” at His coming. Ellen’s prophecy failed, but some of the hard-headed Adventists blame her false prophecy on the inability of people to be “good enough” for the Lord to return to translate them.

No sources for any of this?

What exactly do want a source?
Are you disputing that there was a New Covenant? Jeremiah 31:31-34
Do you dispute what is said about Ellen White?
Or is there something else you dispute?

 

[CatholicLover]

What exactly do want a source?
Are you disputing that there was a New Covenant? Jeremiah 31:31-34
Do you dispute what is said about Ellen White?
Or is there something else you dispute?

I guess what I’m trying to get at is who changed the Sabbath day and when was it changed?

I’m not going to debate Ellen White here and she shouldn’t be the focus of this discussion.

 

[CatholicLover]

Do yuu really not understand the point being made. It doesn’t seem so. It is not being argued that at the time of Jesus that the Sabbath was a Saturday but that it you cannot know if it was a Saturday through out time.

This was discussed long ago in this thread. We do know exactly which day the Sabbath day is. God told the Isreallites which day it was when they were in the wilderness when he instructed them not to collect manna on the Sabbath.

 

[adrift]

I guess what I’m trying to get at is who changed the Sabbath day and when was it changed?

I’m not going to debate Ellen White here and she shouldn’t be the focus of this discussion.

Agreed. I wasn’t sure what you were asking thank you for the clarification. You have asked this and it has been answered. Not to your liking maybe but it has been addressed.
Review post 81.
For awhile, the worship in the temple continued but they(Jewish Christians) also got together on Sunday.
Around the years 80–90, Jewish Christians were thrown out of the synagogues. Do you really believe that the Gentile converts worshiped on the Sabbath? Please cite the verse that demonstrates this. Don’t you think that the Jewish Christian also circumcised even though it was not necessary any more? Just because they would observe the Sabbath does not mean it was necessary. In fact, it wasn’t. I do not find any scripture that says we must keep Holy the Sabbath. You actually find the opposite even though I know you do not agree with the interpretation.

 

[CatholicLover]

I don’t believe that this was the Colossians problem.

So it seems that they are being warned against false teachings.

I can agree with you here. If you read the entire chapter it appears it may be a combination of both things.

Christ’s gospel is all they need. Jesus on the cross eliminated the Law exposing false claims of salvation. They are not to be judged on what they eat or drink. They are not to be judged how the feast or kept or how Sabbath is kept. All this must have been in discussion.

This may be where we disagree, it is the ceremonial law nailed to the cross, that did not include the seventh day Sabbath. You are correct in saying they are not to be judged for all the things listed but that is they are not to be judged by other people. God is our judge. In fact vs. 17 goes on to say “These are a shadow of things that are to come.” This text does not show that the Sabbath is no longer relevant, it upholds the Sabbath by saying the shadow of these things is still there.

I agree with you here what I don’t agree with is that they were observing the Sabbath. It doesn’t say they were.

We will have to disagree on this. It also doesn’t say that they were not observing the Sabbath. The fact that the Sabbath is a shadow of things to come means to me that the Sabbath was still being kept.

Jesus being Lord of the Sabbath does not translate into The Day of the Lord
Post 81 gives proof of what the true meaning of the Lord’s Day.

If Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath doesn’t it follow that the Sabbath is the Lord’s Day? Post #81 shows what the Catholic Church believes is the Lord’s Day.

That is just not true. Post 82 demonstrates that there is scripture that you are ignoring.

I responded to you in post #87.

There isn’t an either or situation. You make a distinction that is not there. The Bible is the product of the Catholic Church. So if it is in the Bible it is made by the Church.

The Bible was certainly put together by (not written by) the Catholic Church but under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. To claim credit for that is a bit ambitious.

 

[Javl]

Again you deny the word of God. These vs. are clear.The Sabbath in this passage comes between the first good Friday and the first Easter Sunday. If you say anything differnt it is you who is twistng scripture.

Luke23
52This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
53And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid.
54And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.

Jesus died and was laid in the tomb on the Preperation day (good Friday). Rested in the tomb on the Sabbath.

55And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
56And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

The women after they saw where Jesus lay went home and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

Luke 24
1Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

It says what it says Javal. According to these scriptures the Sabbath is on Saturday no matter how much you don’t want it to be. Why don’t you just accept it. You wrest scripture to your own destruction.

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

.

It is not I who denies the word of God but you who insists on your telling God what He means is the correct interpretation. I and others have tried to explain and make you understand, but to no avail. Therefore, if this is what you want, so be it for that is what you believe. I know and understand His word. I accept and do His bidding and I have nothing to fear nor to answer for. Shalom.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem