Info on SDA (continued)

[Javl]

We did not ignore it, we just pointed out that it is not true. The Sabbath was created on the seventh day of creation. It was for everyone, God sanctified it and made it Holy.

It most certainly is true. Everything is documented, even in scripture. It’s just that if you agree that it is true then, in your eyes, everything that you have accepted would be proven false ( which it is anyway ). I pray that some day the film be removed from your eyes, as it has in true believers, so that you may really see.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

So by default, you (SDA CatholicLover) are implying that the Apostle Paul said that not keeping the Saturday sabbath is a sin?

Here is what the SDA prophetess [Ellen G. White] wrote in 1847 about not keeping the Saturday sabbath**:**

“I [Ellen White] saw all that ‘would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,’ could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope’s, and not God’s Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God’s Sabbath, and keep the Pope’s and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his Image.”

Did you know that Ellen G. White’s name adds up to 666? ELLEN=155, GOULD=500, WHITE=11. Now what’s this about “the mark of the beast”?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CatholicLover]

correction. your unique beliefs are based on E.G. Whites interpretation of the bible. not based on the BIBLE.

This is partly true. Adventist beliefs are based in large part on Ellen White’s understanding of the Bible but she is not the only one.

i am familiar with the scapegoat found in leviticus. if you were correct. this teaching would have been found prior to 1800. it is not. nor is your version of the sanctuary cleansing. neither of your groups views on these two items has ever been held by any Christian group pre 1800.

Just because it is a relatively new understanding of the Bible does not mean it is false, it just means it is new. If you look at the dates involved roughly 1800 years passed between the founding of the Catholic Church and the founding of the Adventist Church. That is alot of years, so why did it take so long to arrive at Adventist beliefs? I’ll start by asking another question, why did it take the reformation roughly 1500 years to get started?

I think it was a combination of things. Bibles were not widely distributed because the technology to print them quickly and cheaply did not yet exist until the late 1400s. This is really the first time ordinary people (non clergy) were able to study the Bible in detail.

Until that time the only view of scripture was Catholic. Not because it was the only possible view but because of the lack of printing technology and the fact that the Church actively discouraged ideas that challenged their view. There were various other groups of believers throughout history but they were never mainstream and never reached the masses. So the late 1400s and early 1500s are really the beginning point for ideas that differ from the Catholic Church.

We are talking only 350 to 400 years after this that the Adventist church formed based on a set of beliefs arrived at upon studying the Bible beginning with the arrival of the moveable type printing press and later the reformation.

Why did it take 400 years after that for the Adventist Church to come along? There were a string of reforms that needed to take place first upon which the Adventist Church built it’s beliefs. For example, if it wasn’t for William Miller’s misunderstanding of scripture and belief that Jesus would return in 1844 the founders of the Adventist Church would not have gone back to their Bibles to see where they had gone wrong and come to understand the Sanctuary in the way we have.

The fact that the Seventh Day Adventist Church was founded in the 1800s doesn’t automatically make us wrong; If we are wrong it is because we have made an error in our understanding of the Bible, the same is true for any denomination including Roman Catholics.

and yes. we have had Adventist state they are the Church founded by Christ, and that they can trace their beliefs back to that time. you however have been the most honest of anyone, and state that you believe you are the remnant Church. this makes more sense, and i applaud you for seeing this and recognizing it. so therefore my question was not misleading. i just wanted one of yall to admit it. you have done so, with my thanks. Peace to you and yours. im almost tempted to add you to my friends list.

I thank you for your compliment (I think ).

I have never heard the claim that the Adventist Church was founded by Christ and the Adventist Church does not teach that. We can trace our fundamental beliefs back to the Apostles through the Bible but you are correct in saying that some of our prophetic beliefs are unique.

My time debating with all of you here in this thread has caused me re-evaluate and adjust my understanding of some things though particularly dealing with the history of the Catholic Church which I think is your strongest argument. I haven’t seen anything posted that has caused me to say Adventists are wrong though especially as it relates to the Sabbath Day.

I have seen alot of Bible verses being thrown back and forth but nothing definative and in fact it is clear to me that the Biblical evidence is tipped in favor of the Apostles keeping the Sabbath. I’ll grant you that extra-Biblical sources show that worship on Sunday began far earlier historically than I had previously thought but it seems to have been gradual.

The reason this gradual change is relevant is that the change happened after Jesus’ crucifiction. All covenants between God and his people were sealed by the blood of a sacrificial animal. In the case of the New Covenant, the sacrifice was Jesus. If he was crucified before the change of the Sabbath it could not have been changed in the New Covenant.

 

[CatholicLover]

So by default, you (SDA CatholicLover) are implying that the Apostle Paul said that not keeping the Saturday sabbath is a sin?
]

No, that is stated elsewhere in the Bible but I do believe that text upholds the Sabbath by saying it is a shadow of things to come.

Here is what the SDA prophetess [Ellen G. White] wrote in 1847 about not keeping the Saturday sabbath**:**

“I [Ellen White] saw all that ‘would not receive the mark of the Beast, and of his Image, in their foreheads or in their hands,’ could not buy or sell. I saw that the number (666) of the Image Beast was made up; and that it was the beast that changed the Sabbath, and the Image Beast had followed on after, and kept the Pope’s, and not God’s Sabbath. And all we were required to do, was to give up God’s Sabbath, and keep the Pope’s and then we should have the mark of the Beast, and of his Image.”

I’m not sure what this has to do with what you quoted of my post.

 

[CatholicLover]

It most certainly is true. Everything is documented, even in scripture. It’s just that if you agree that it is true then, in your eyes, everything that you have accepted would be proven false ( which it is anyway ). I pray that some day the film be removed from your eyes, as it has in true believers, so that you may really see.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Do you dispute the fact that the Sabbath was created on the 7th day of Creation?
Do you dispute the fact that God Sanctified it and made it Holy?
Do you dispute the fact that there were no Isreallites when it was created?

 

[me_again]

I’ll grant you that extra-Biblical sources show that worship on Sunday began far earlier historically than I had previously thought but it seems to have been gradual.

The reason this gradual change is relevant is that the change happened after Jesus’ crucifiction. All covenants between God and his people were sealed by the blood of a sacrificial animal. In the case of the New Covenant, the sacrifice was Jesus.

That is correct e.g. the apostles and their Christian followers did not begin gathering for worship on the Lord’s day (Sunday) until after the resurrection of Jesus. The resurrection of Jesus was a significant event that is directly tied to the Eucharistic celebration**;** and we are doing this until He returns in glory. His body was broken (in death) on the cross and His body is broken in the Eucharistic bread in remembrance of Him.

 

[Javl]

Do you dispute the fact that the Sabbath was created on the 7th day of Creation?
Do you dispute the fact that God Sanctified it and made it Holy?
Do you dispute the fact that there were no Isreallites when it was created?

No. I DO NOT dispute any of that. What I do dispute is that 1 ) Saturday was named the Sabbath from the creation; 2 ) that we non-Jews or non-Adventists MUST keep Saturday as the Sabbath, and 3 ) that we are sinning in not keeping the OLD LAW.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[me_again]

It most certainly is true. Everything is documented, even in scripture. It’s just that if you agree that it is true then, in your eyes, everything that you have accepted would be proven false ( which it is anyway ). I pray that some day the film be removed from your eyes, as it has in true believers, so that you may really see.
CatholicLover;6927463:

Do you dispute the fact that the Sabbath was created on the 7th day of Creation?
Do you dispute the fact that God Sanctified it and made it Holy?
Do you dispute the fact that there were no Isreallites when it was created?

Javl has not disputed that anywhere in his writings. He’s made it abundantly clear that there are other interpretative issues that are problematic with Ellen White’s SDA belief systems about Saturday sabbath laws.

 

[CatholicLover]

No. I DO NOT dispute any of that. What I do dispute is that 1 ) Saturday was named the Sabbath from the creation; 2 ) that we non-Jews or non-Adventists MUST keep Saturday as the Sabbath, and 3 ) that we are sinning in not keeping the OLD LAW.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Which day did God bless and sanctify?

Gen. 2:3 - “And God blessed** the seventh day**, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”

Which day is the Sabbath?
Ex. 16:25,26 - ‘“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because **today is the Sabbath **of the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today, v.26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”’

But is the seventh day the Sabbath?

Ex, 20:10 - “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.”

Edit:
It’s clear that the Sabbath is the day referred to as the seventh day at Creation. God makes it clear, Moses makes it clear, the Isreallites understood it as such as do the Jews.

 

[me_again]

Which day did God bless and sanctify?

Gen. 2:3 - “And God blessed** the seventh day**, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”

Which day is the Sabbath?
Ex. 16:25,26 - ‘“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because **today is the Sabbath **of the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today, v.26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”’

But is the seventh day the Sabbath?

Ex, 20:10 - “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.”

Edit:
It’s clear that the Sabbath is the day referred to as the seventh day at Creation. God makes it clear, Moses makes it clear, the Isreallites understood it as such as do the Jews.

Moses makes it clear that the Saturday sabbath is for the Jews as a sign of God freeing them from slavery in Egypt, to wit**:**

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

Here’s corroborating information from a church father**:**

Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD] Epistle to the Magnesians
“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the [Saturday] Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day [Sunday], on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]).

Context is everything. *

 

[loneviking]

Do you dispute the fact that the Sabbath was created on the 7th day of Creation?
Do you dispute the fact that God Sanctified it and made it Holy?
Do you dispute the fact that there were no Isreallites when it was created?

I do dispute the idea that Adam and Eve were commanded to worship on the seventh day, as there is no record of such.

I do dispute that there was any observance of the seventh day Sabbath prior to the Exodus, as no such record exists.

I do dispute that God rested on that seventh day of creation, as Scripture tells us He never rests…

I do also dispute that the seventh day in the creation account was a literal day. Note that unlike the previous six days, there is no recitation of ‘and the evening and the morning were the XXX day’.

What you have here is a figure of speech called Metonymy, in which a thing is not called by its own name (seventh day) but by the name of something intimately associated with that thing or concept (the sabbath). Often, this other name comes much later.

For example, we say that President Lincolns birthday is Feb. 12. But was he a president when he was born? No, that came much later. In the Bible, the woman God made for Adam is named Eve—which means ‘mother of many’…and a title which came many years after.

The same for the Sabbath mentioned here. Moses wrote this book during the time of wandering in the Wilderness. It was only natural to refer to the seventh day as the Sabbath, especially to a Jewish audience that had been handed the law by God.

Note another Jewish odditiy here in Genesis and that is the use of ‘and the evening and the morning were the …day’. Jewish time begins at sundown, and goes to the next sundown. The use of the phrase ‘evening and morning’ points to a Jewish author counting time in the manner proscribed by the law of Moses.

So, no, I don’t accept a Saturday sabbath as being in effect or being observed before the Exodus.

 

[CatholicLover]

Moses makes it clear that the Saturday sabbath is for the Jews as a sign of God freeing them from slavery in Egypt, to wit**:**

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

Yes, Moses does make it clear that the 7th day Sabbath is for the Jews. It is also the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. I don’t think Deut. 5:15 proves what you think it does. All it proves is that God expected the Jews to observe the Sabbath Day. It does not detract from its Holiness or Sanctity.

If you don’t dispute the fact that the Sabbath was created on the 7th day of Creation, the fact that God Sanctified it and made it Holy or the fact that there were no Isreallites when it was created how can you dispute the fact that the God intended for all mankind to keep it Holy?

 

[Javl]

Which day did God bless and sanctify?

Gen. 2:3 - “And God blessed** the seventh day**, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”

Which day is the Sabbath?
Ex. 16:25,26 - ‘“Eat it today,” Moses said, “because **today is the Sabbath **of the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today, v.26 Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”’

But is the seventh day the Sabbath?

Ex, 20:10 - “But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God.”

Edit:
It’s clear that the Sabbath is the day referred to as the seventh day at Creation. God makes it clear, Moses makes it clear, the Isreallites understood it as such as do the Jews.

I have NEVER said that the seventh day WAS NOT the Sabbath. I follow what was said in Exodus that “you shall labor six days and keep the seventh Holy for the Lord”. We labor from Monday thru Saturday, which is six days, and keep the seventh day, which is Sunday, Holy for the Lord. How then are we violating the command?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CatholicLover]

I do dispute the idea that Adam and Eve were commanded to worship on the seventh day, as there is no record of such.

There is a command, you just do not recognise it. God made Adam and Eve on the 6th day, created the seventh day on the very next day, and sanctified it. He rested on that day (Gen. 2:2). And you believe that God did not expect Adam and Eve to rest with Him and keep His day Holy?
The command is in the word Sanctify (qadash) which means to hallow, to pronounce holy, to consecrate, to set apart for holy use.

I do dispute that there was any observance of the seventh day Sabbath prior to the Exodus, as no such record exists.

In Mark 2:27, Jesus says: “The Sabbath was made for man.” He does not say the Sabbath was made for Isreallite or Jew.

The 4th Commandment begins “Remember the Sabbath Day” then ties that day to the 7th day of Creation. If the Sabbath day was not kept before the exodus what would there be to remember?

The same God who created you and I said and said he is Lord of the Sabbath died for all of us on the cross. It is His Sabbath we are talking about. “The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord the God.” How reasonable is it to assume that He died for everyone but only sanctified the Sabbath day for the Isrealites?

I do dispute that God rested on that seventh day of creation, as Scripture tells us He never rests…

Gen 2:2 - “…So on the seventh day He rested from all His work.”

I do also dispute that the seventh day in the creation account was a literal day. Note that unlike the previous six days, there is no recitation of ‘and the evening and the morning were the XXX day’.

What you have here is a figure of speech called Metonymy, in which a thing is not called by its own name (seventh day) but by the name of something intimately associated with that thing or concept (the sabbath). Often, this other name comes much later.

For example, we say that President Lincolns birthday is Feb. 12. But was he a president when he was born? No, that came much later. In the Bible, the woman God made for Adam is named Eve—which means ‘mother of many’…and a title which came many years after.

So the keeping the Sabbath day isn’t Biblical but this is?

The same for the Sabbath mentioned here. Moses wrote this book during the time of wandering in the Wilderness. It was only natural to refer to the seventh day as the Sabbath, especially to a Jewish audience that had been handed the law by God.

It is also natural because the seventh day is clearly identified by God as the Sabbath day.

Note another Jewish odditiy here in Genesis and that is the use of ‘and the evening and the morning were the …day’. Jewish time begins at sundown, and goes to the next sundown. The use of the phrase ‘evening and morning’ points to a Jewish author counting time in the manner proscribed by the law of Moses.

So, no, I don’t accept a Saturday sabbath as being in effect or being observed before the Exodus.

That’s how God counted time too:
Gen 1:3 : “…And there was evening, and there was morning - the first day.”

 

[CatholicLover]

I have NEVER said that the seventh day WAS NOT the Sabbath. I follow what was said in Exodus that “you shall labor six days and keep the seventh Holy for the Lord”. We labor from Monday thru Saturday, which is six days, and keep the seventh day, which is Sunday, Holy for the Lord. How then are we violating the command?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Because God identified exactly which day is the 7th day and therefore Holy and Sanctified. We know what day of the week it is and it’s not S,M,T,W,T or F. It’s Saturday.

 

[loneviking]

Catholiclover wrote:

In Mark 2:27, Jesus says: “The Sabbath was made for man.” He does not say the Sabbath was made for Isreallite or Jew.

Jesus didn’t have too. His audience was Jewish and the Sabbath commands clearly could apply only to the Jews. Only the Jews were in slavery, in Egypt and brought out by God. That didn’t happen to the Gentiles, or to you or me. Remember the words of Exodus 31:16

‘Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations for a perpetual covenant’.

The children of Israel—NOT the Gentiles. And remember, this verse is quoting a command given by God, not Moses.

The 4th Commandment begins “Remember the Sabbath Day” then ties that day to the 7th day of Creation. If the Sabbath day was not kept before the exodus what would there be to remember?

That’s an old, strawman argument. ‘Remember’ has several meanings and in context, here, it means ‘don’t forget to do this’. And in any case, it’s irrelevent as it’s part of a law that was designed for, given to and covenanted with the Jewish people----not the Gentiles.

The same God who created you and I said and said he is Lord of the Sabbath died for all of us on the cross. It is His Sabbath we are talking about. “The seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord the God.” How reasonable is it to assume that He died for everyone but only sanctified the Sabbath day for the Isrealites?

Gods ways are not our ways. I don’t have any problem with God changing the way in which He deals with mankind. Before the Jews, there was no temple. Then, for centuries there was a Jewish temple where God tabernacled with men. Then, God who was the Shekinah glory came down and tabernacled directly with men as a man. Now, there is no temple on earth.

Same thing with the Sabbath. The ‘rest’ in Genesis was a rest from creating, as God always works (John 5:17). There was no command and there was no record of the Sabbath being observed until the time of the Exodus. Christ died, and the old covenant died with Him. Under the New Covenant, and the writings of the New Testament church, there is no teaching of seventh day sabbath observance—absolutely none. That teaching would have to be there as the Gentiles were never part of the Mosaic law/covenant. So if the Sabbath continued after Christs death, it would have to be taught along with whatever terms/conditions surrounded it under the New Covenant. And you won’t find that taught anywhere in the New Testament!

 

[Javl]

Because God identified exactly which day is the 7th day and therefore Holy and Sanctified. We know what day of the week it is and it’s not S,M,T,W,T or F. It’s Saturday.

God DID NOT say it was Saturday ! MAN NAMED IT SATURDAY !. God called it THE SEVENTH DAY. He said to work six and to keep the seventh day Holy ( Exodus 20:8-11 ). God DID NOT give names to the days. Show me where in the Bible that He said to keep SATURDAY Holy.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Quoted by **CatholicLover:
**

There is a command, you just do not recognise it. God made Adam and Eve on the 6th day, created the seventh day on the very next day, and sanctified it. He rested on that day (Gen. 2:2). And you believe that God did not expect Adam and Eve to rest with Him and keep His day Holy?
The command is in the word Sanctify (qadash) which means to hallow, to pronounce holy, to consecrate, to set apart for holy use.

Now you are reading and putting into the Bible things that are not there. God NEVER gave Adam and Eve the Law, not even by inference. The Law was given to the Jews only after they left Egypt which was about a thousand years after creation. Please read and understand scripture and stop trying to make it say what you want it to prove and legitimize your point. Be honest.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[CatholicLover]

God DID NOT say it was Saturday ! MAN NAMED IT SATURDAY !. God called it THE SEVENTH DAY. He said to work six and to keep the seventh day Holy ( Exodus 20:8-11 ). God DID NOT give names to the days. Show me where in the Bible that He said to keep SATURDAY Holy.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

So the fact that we call the 7th day Saturday makes it not the Sabbath?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Quoted by **CatholicLover:
**

Now you are reading and putting into the Bible things that are not there. God NEVER gave Adam and Eve the Law, not even by inference. The Law was given to the Jews only after they left Egypt which was about a thousand years after creation. Please read and understand scripture and stop trying to make it say what you want it to prove and legitimize your point. Be honest.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Gen 4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God warns Cain here not to sin.

1Jn.3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for **sin is the transgression of the law. **

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom.5
18(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where there is no law sin cannot be imputed because

Rom.3
20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God gave the law from the very beginning. It was just not written down.