Info on SDA (continued)

[CatholicLover]

Quoted by **CatholicLover:
**

Now you are reading and putting into the Bible things that are not there. God NEVER gave Adam and Eve the Law, not even by inference. The Law was given to the Jews only after they left Egypt which was about a thousand years after creation. Please read and understand scripture and stop trying to make it say what you want it to prove and legitimize your point. Be honest.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I have been nothing but honest. You discount completely the emphasis God put on the 7th day of Creation. How is it that on the first 5 days of Creation God created the earth and everything in it for man, on the 6th day he created man and on the 7th day he created something that wasn’t for man? If the Sabbath was created for man (which we know it was)and Adam and Eve were the only man and woman alive who exactly did God create it for?

You can assume one or two things here. You can assume God made the Sabbath as a place holder so that a couple thousand years later he could instruct ONLY the Isrealites to keep it temporarily. Or you can assume that God made the Sabbath day for ALL men. The bulk of the evidence seems to point to it being for ALL men yet you chose to believe the former. Just because God instructed the Isrealites to keep the Sabbath does not mean it is only for the Isrealites. That is not sound reasoning.

 

[CatholicLover]

That is correct e.g. the apostles and their Christian followers did not begin gathering for worship on the Lord’s day (Sunday) until after the resurrection of Jesus.

I’m glad we agree on this particular part but you didn’t comment on the rest of my post and my main point regarding the change to worshipping on Sunday. If it happened after Jesus was crucified, it could not have been part of the new covenant because it was not sealed by the blood of His sacrifice.

 

[CatholicLover]

Jesus didn’t have too. His audience was Jewish and the Sabbath commands clearly could apply only to the Jews. Only the Jews were in slavery, in Egypt and brought out by God. That didn’t happen to the Gentiles, or to you or me.

In Mark 2:27 Jesus is making a point to the Pharisees and he is clear, “The Sabbath was made for man”. I am a man, therefore the Sabbath was made for me too.

Remember the words of Exodus 31:16.

The children of Israel—NOT the Gentiles. And remember, this verse is quoting a command given by God, not Moses.

I have written this many times already but I’ll write it again. Just because God told the Isrealites to keep the Sabbath does not mean it is only for the Isrealites. It is for man, created on the 7th day of Creation well before God instructed the Isrealites to keep it.

That’s an old, strawman argument. ‘Remember’ has several meanings and in context, here, it means ‘don’t forget to do this’. And in any case, it’s irrelevent as it’s part of a law that was designed for, given to and covenanted with the Jewish people----not the Gentiles.

That’s a good distinction but I believe God means the word in both ways here. Much like saying to a child “Remember to look both ways before you cross the street.” The benefit of looking both ways before crossing has always been there, child has been told to do it before AND you want them to remember it in the future.

Gods ways are not our ways. I don’t have any problem with God changing the way in which He deals with mankind. Before the Jews, there was no temple. Then, for centuries there was a Jewish temple where God tabernacled with men. Then, God who was the Shekinah glory came down and tabernacled directly with men as a man. Now, there is no temple on earth.

I agree, thankfully God does change how he deals with us otherwise we would have little hope of Salvation.

Same thing with the Sabbath. The ‘rest’ in Genesis was a rest from creating, as God always works (John 5:17). There was no command and there was no record of the Sabbath being observed until the time of the Exodus. Christ died, and the old covenant died with Him. Under the New Covenant, and the writings of the New Testament church, there is no teaching of seventh day sabbath observance—absolutely none. That teaching would have to be there as the Gentiles were never part of the Mosaic law/covenant. So if the Sabbath continued after Christs death, it would have to be taught along with whatever terms/conditions surrounded it under the New Covenant. And you won’t find that taught anywhere in the New Testament!

Here’s where we disagree, there are many texts in the New Testement that uphold the moral law including the seventh day Sabbath. Only the ceremonial law was nailed to the cross, not the moral law. Paul is clear about that in Colossians. It is also clear that Paul when to the synagogue on Sabbath “as was his custom”.

 

[Javl]

So the fact that we call the 7th day Saturday makes it not the Sabbath?

It may be the seventh day and Sabbath for you. My seventh day and Sabbath is Sunday.
I don’t know about you, but I understand, accept, and keep Jesus’ commands.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Gen 4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God warns Cain here not to sin.

1Jn.3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for **sin is the transgression of the law. **

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom.5
18(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where there is no law sin cannot be imputed because

Rom.3
20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God gave the law from the very beginning. It was just not written down.

Good job with scripture, Richard. You know, I can pick and choose scripture to tell you to go out and rob, murder, fornicate, commit adultery and anything else you’d want. Your ploy is typical of the cults and all those who try to prove they are right by using scripture to mean other than what it is not. Your arguments keep leaking and are getting weaker and weaker. Keep it up, for the more you do, the more it proves that you are wrong and in ** DEEP ERROR**.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

I have been nothing but honest. You discount completely the emphasis God put on the 7th day of Creation. How is it that on the first 5 days of Creation God created the earth and everything in it for man, on the 6th day he created man and on the 7th day he created something that wasn’t for man? If the Sabbath was created for man (which we know it was)and Adam and Eve were the only man and woman alive who exactly did God create it for?

You can assume one or two things here. You can assume God made the Sabbath as a place holder so that a couple thousand years later he could instruct ONLY the Isrealites to keep it temporarily. Or you can assume that God made the Sabbath day for ALL men. The bulk of the evidence seems to point to it being for ALL men yet you chose to believe the former. Just because God instructed the Isrealites to keep the Sabbath does not mean it is only for the Isrealites. That is not sound reasoning.

It seems that no matter how I put it, phrase it, explain it, you simply refuse to listen. I keep telling you that GOD SAID TO WORK SIX DAYS AND TO REST ON THE SEVENTH AND TO KEEP IT HOLY. GOD DID NOT SAY THAT I MUST KEEP SATURDAY AS THE SABBATH. GOD DID NOT CALL THE SEVENTH DAY SATURDAY, MAN DID. WE TRUE CHRISTIANS WORK SIX DAYS AND KEEP THE SEVENTH DAY HOLY. OUR SEVENTH DAY IS SUNDAY. WE ARE NOT SINNING AND ARE OBEYING GOD. PROVE OTHERWISE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND???

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Good job with scripture, Richard. You know, I can pick and choose scripture to tell you to go out and rob, murder, fornicate, commit adultery and anything else you’d want.

No you can’t and the fact is that these scriptures tell us that the God gave the law at the very beginning, because we KNOW THAT MAN SINNED. And sinning is not possible without the LAW.

Your ploy is typical of the cults and all those who try to prove they are right by using scripture to mean other than what it is not.

Here they are again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Gen 4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God warns Cain here not to sin.

1Jn.3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom.5
18(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where there is no law sin cannot be imputed because

Rom.3
20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God gave the law from the very beginning. It was just not written down.

What do you think they say?

Your arguments keep leaking and are getting weaker and weaker. Keep it up, for the more you do, the more it proves that you are wrong and in ** DEEP ERROR**.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Enlighten me Javl. How is my argument weak. And how would my argument if it were weak which it isn’t prove that I am wrong. You seem to be more than willing to say that I am wrong, and in ** “DEEP ERROR”**. yet I haven’t seen anything from you to “prove” that you are right. These vs. absolutely “prove” that the law was from the beginning

 

[Javl]

No you can’t and the fact is that these scriptures tell us that the God gave the law at the very beginning, because we KNOW THAT MAN SINNED. And sinning is not possible without the LAW.

Here they are again
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Gen 4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God warns Cain here not to sin.

1Jn.3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom.5
18(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where there is no law sin cannot be imputed because

Rom.3
20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God gave the law from the very beginning. It was just not written down.

What do you think they say?

Enlighten me Javl. How is my argument weak. And how would my argument if it were weak which it isn’t prove that I am wrong. You seem to be more than willing to say that I am wrong, and in ** “DEEP ERROR”**. yet I haven’t seen anything from you to “prove” that you are right. These vs. absolutely “prove” that the law was from the beginning

I have given you proof and explained again and again what all of Christendom believes and accepts. I, and others, have shown you the truth, quoting scripture from the Bible. We have given you book, chapter, and verse that not only supports our position but is the absolute Word of God, yet you either deny, reject, or ignore it and insist that your interpretation is the only one. I have also given you documentation from knowledgeable Rabbis and Rabbinical scholars, plus comments from the SDA itself, concerning the Law. But you have either ignored or rejected it. I guess What the Jews believe means nothing to you. It’s only what you believe that counts. All of Chistendom is out of step then and you and Adventism are the only ones that hear the cadence of God’s drum.

I feel sorry for you Richard. I honestly and sincerely do. I pray to the Holy Spirit that he opens your eyes to the truth and Blesses you with understanding and knowledge. I just hope that you listen to Him.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[me_again]

No you can’t and the fact is that these scriptures tell us that the God gave the law at the very beginning,

This is a good scripture too**:**

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

This is one of those scriptures that is like throwing boiling oil on the devil.

 

[loneviking]

I have been nothing but honest. You discount completely the emphasis God put on the 7th day of Creation. How is it that on the first 5 days of Creation God created the earth and everything in it for man, on the 6th day he created man and on the 7th day he created something that wasn’t for man? If the Sabbath was created for man (which we know it was)and Adam and Eve were the only man and woman alive who exactly did God create it for?

You can assume one or two things here. You can assume God made the Sabbath as a place holder so that a couple thousand years later he could instruct ONLY the Isrealites to keep it temporarily. Or you can assume that God made the Sabbath day for ALL men. The bulk of the evidence seems to point to it being for ALL men yet you chose to believe the former. Just because God instructed the Isrealites to keep the Sabbath does not mean it is only for the Isrealites. That is not sound reasoning.

Actually, there is a third option. Genesis, (and the bulk of the first five books of Scripture) were written by Moses many years after the fact. Moses wrote using terms familiar to and used by his audience. That is why the Sabbath is referred to, even though Moses honestly recited history which shows no record of the sabbath being kept until after the Exodus. That is why Adams mate is called ‘Eve’ even though she wasn’t the ‘mother of many’ until many years after the events in the first two chapters of Genesis. That is why there is the recitation of ‘and the evening and the morning were the XXX day’.
And the list could go on for quite a bit…

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This is a good scripture too**:**

Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

This is one of those scriptures that is like throwing boiling oil on the devil.

Here’s another

Romans9
4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

I feel sorry for you Richard. I honestly and sincerely do. I pray to the Holy Spirit that he opens your eyes to the truth and Blesses you with understanding and knowledge. I just hope that you listen to Him.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Your prayers have been heard. He has opened my eyes with understanding and knowledge.

1 Corinthians 12
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of **knowledge by the same Spirit; **

There is no doubt in my mind that the Spirit of the living God has given me these gifts. How did you know Javl. Now it’s your turn to listen.

 

[benidict]

Paul never said not keeping the Sabbath was not a sin. He said don’t let anyone judge you for how you keep the Sabbaths.

Once again:

wrong once again…let no man judge you on a sabbath day or new moon etc. etc. paraphrased. also one man esteems one day higher than another, one man esteems all days the same. let each be convinced in his own mind. he never said do not let anyone judge you for how you keep the sabbaths. where in the world do you get that? this just keeps getting better and better. Peace

 

[benidict]

This is partly true. Adventist beliefs are based in large part on Ellen White’s understanding of the Bible but she is not the only one.

Just because it is a relatively new understanding of the Bible does not mean it is false, it just means it is new. If you look at the dates involved roughly 1800 years passed between the founding of the Catholic Church and the founding of the Adventist Church. That is alot of years, so why did it take so long to arrive at Adventist beliefs? I’ll start by asking another question, why did it take the reformation roughly 1500 years to get started?

I think it was a combination of things. Bibles were not widely distributed because the technology to print them quickly and cheaply did not yet exist until the late 1400s. This is really the first time ordinary people (non clergy) were able to study the Bible in detail.

Until that time the only view of scripture was Catholic. Not because it was the only possible view but because of the lack of printing technology and the fact that the Church actively discouraged ideas that challenged their view. There were various other groups of believers throughout history but they were never mainstream and never reached the masses. So the late 1400s and early 1500s are really the beginning point for ideas that differ from the Catholic Church.

We are talking only 350 to 400 years after this that the Adventist church formed based on a set of beliefs arrived at upon studying the Bible beginning with the arrival of the moveable type printing press and later the reformation.

Why did it take 400 years after that for the Adventist Church to come along? There were a string of reforms that needed to take place first upon which the Adventist Church built it’s beliefs. For example, if it wasn’t for William Miller’s misunderstanding of scripture and belief that Jesus would return in 1844 the founders of the Adventist Church would not have gone back to their Bibles to see where they had gone wrong and come to understand the Sanctuary in the way we have.

The fact that the Seventh Day Adventist Church was founded in the 1800s doesn’t automatically make us wrong; If we are wrong it is because we have made an error in our understanding of the Bible, the same is true for any denomination including Roman Catholics.

I thank you for your compliment (I think ).

I have never heard the claim that the Adventist Church was founded by Christ and the Adventist Church does not teach that. We can trace our fundamental beliefs back to the Apostles through the Bible but you are correct in saying that some of our prophetic beliefs are unique.

My time debating with all of you here in this thread has caused me re-evaluate and adjust my understanding of some things though particularly dealing with the history of the Catholic Church which I think is your strongest argument. I haven’t seen anything posted that has caused me to say Adventists are wrong though especially as it relates to the Sabbath Day.

I have seen alot of Bible verses being thrown back and forth but nothing definative and in fact it is clear to me that the Biblical evidence is tipped in favor of the Apostles keeping the Sabbath. I’ll grant you that extra-Biblical sources show that worship on Sunday began far earlier historically than I had previously thought but it seems to have been gradual.

The reason this gradual change is relevant is that the change happened after Jesus’ crucifiction. All covenants between God and his people were sealed by the blood of a sacrificial animal. In the case of the New Covenant, the sacrifice was Jesus. If he was crucified before the change of the Sabbath it could not have been changed in the New Covenant.

you are welcome the compliment is sincere for you. and i think you would have a wonderful time studying the Church Fathers. even if you have a difference of opinion. it can do nothing but help you grow. the reformation is an entirely different issue, but i can see how you can come to you conclusions for adventism based on them. will adress this more in a p.m. i dont have much time now. im doing alot of details. being all i can be. lol! Peace to you and yours.

 

[Javl]

Your prayers have been heard. He has opened my eyes with understanding and knowledge.

1 Corinthians 12
1Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of **knowledge by the same Spirit; **

There is no doubt in my mind that the Spirit of the living God has given me these gifts. How did you know Javl. Now it’s your turn to listen.

I have listened to the Holy Spirit. He has taken me by the ear and shaken me and has awakened me to the truth. I hear, listen and obey Him. I know that I have been blessed by Him for I have prayed to Him for faith and for knowledge and understanding. He has given me them, plus the gift of discernment. I thank Him and praise Him for He is God. Therefore I know that what I say is truth for I am led and prompted by Him. Can you say the same?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[benidict]

Gen 4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God warns Cain here not to sin.

1Jn.3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for **sin is the transgression of the law. **

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom.5
18(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where there is no law sin cannot be imputed because

Rom.3
20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God gave the law from the very beginning. It was just not written down.

you are mixing apples and oranges here. cain was not guilty of violating a sabbath obligation. it did not exist. his sacrifice was not acceptable to God, due to several reasons. it appears that abel actually went to some lengths to give God his best. where cain simply threw some items together and kinda winged it. nothing about the sabbath here. no sacrificial law was even enacted yet. we dont here of adam and eve sacrificing anything. it was not until later that people actually began to call on the name of the Lord. to tie the sabbath into the story of cain and abel is nonsense. the two have nothing to do with eachother. we dont hear of the commandment to keep the sabbath from creation all the way to mount sinai. then, it was given to the Jews. no one but the Jews. not the gentiles whatsoever. you yourselves do not follow the entire moral law that is attached to the 10 commandments. if you did, you would have stoned your own prophetess for prophecying falsely. you would burn witches, etc. etc. etc. there is much more to the law than just the sabbath or the 10 commandments. until you can honestly say you follow the moral law, and all its punishments and blessings, do not accuse the rest of us of not following something you yourself do not follow. Peace

 

[me_again]

Gen 4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God warns Cain here not to sin.

1Jn.3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for **sin is the transgression of the law. **

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom.5
18(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where there is no law sin cannot be imputed because

Rom.3
20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God gave the law from the very beginning. It was just not written down.
benidict;6932706:

you are mixing apples and oranges here. cain was not guilty of violating a sabbath obligation. it did not exist. his sacrifice was not acceptable to God, due to several reasons. it appears that abel actually went to some lengths to give God his best. where cain simply threw some items together and kinda winged it. nothing about the sabbath here. no sacrificial law was even enacted yet. we dont here of adam and eve sacrificing anything. it was not until later that people actually began to call on the name of the Lord. to tie the sabbath into the story of cain and abel is nonsense. the two have nothing to do with eachother. we dont hear of the commandment to keep the sabbath from creation all the way to mount sinai. then, it was given to the Jews. no one but the Jews. not the gentiles whatsoever. you yourselves do not follow the entire moral law that is attached to the 10 commandments. if you did, you would have stoned your own prophetess for prophecying falsely. you would burn witches, etc. etc. etc. there is much more to the law than just the sabbath or the 10 commandments. until you can honestly say you follow the moral law, and all its punishments and blessings, do not accuse the rest of us of not following something you yourself do not follow. Peace

Richard Kastner’s consistent posting of out-of-context scriptures is bizarre. In Richard’s mind, there is obviously credence to his cutting-and-pasting of large volumes of non-contextual bible quotes to various conversations, but they are so consistently out-of-context and inappropriate that it’s oftentimes not even worth responding to. There are probably underlying and ongoing [demonic] spiritual issues that are concurrently working here.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Originally Posted by Richard Kastner
Gen 4
6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

God warns Cain here not to sin.

1Jn.3
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom.5
18(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Where there is no law sin cannot be imputed because

Rom.3
20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

God gave the law from the very beginning. It was just not written down.

you are mixing apples and oranges here. cain was not guilty of violating a sabbath obligation. it did not exist.

Ben, I’m NOT mixing anything. It is you who is misunderstanding the premise of my post. Javl posted:

Originally Posted by Javl
Quoted by CatholicLover:

Now you are reading and putting into the Bible things that are not there. God NEVER gave Adam and Eve the Law, not even by inference. The Law was given to the Jews only after they left Egypt which was about a thousand years after creation. Please read and understand scripture and stop trying to make it say what you want it to prove and legitimize your point. Be honest.

There is no mention here or in my post of the Sabbath. However, neither you nor anyone else can dispute that the Sabbath commandment is one of the ten commandments that comprise what Paul refers to as THE LAW, when he says: Rom.3:20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin. And when he says Rom.5:18(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.) He is saying that there was sin in the world before the law was written down by the finger of God so there also was the law. It just was not written down. And if there was the LAW in the world there was all ten of the commandments that comprise the law that Paul is talking about.

his sacrifice was not acceptable to God, due to several reasons. it appears that abel actually went to some lengths to give God his best. where cain simply threw some items together and kinda winged it.

Cain’s sacrifice was not acceptable to the Lord because his sacrifice did not have the shedding of blood.
Hebrews 9:22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

nothing about the sabbath here. no sacrificial law was even enacted yet. we dont here of adam and eve sacrificing anything. it was not until later that people actually began to call on the name of the Lord.

My goodness Ben, you should read your posts before you post them. You just got done talking about the sacrifices that Cain and Abel were sacrificing and then you say “no sacrificial law was even enacted yet” Why do you think they were doing the sacrifices in the first place? Do you think that this was something that they thought up on thier own?
Actually the first sacrifice was given by God. Gen.3: 21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. The skins of these animals that clothed Adam and Eve were taken from animals that God sacrificed. They were substituted for the leaves that Adam and Eve had sewn together. Do you see the symbolism here. Jn3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. It is symbolic of the sacrifice of the Father of His son. That His perfect righteousness would cover us and take the place of our inadequate righteousness.

to tie the sabbath into the story of cain and abel is nonsense. the two have nothing to do with each other. we dont hear of the commandment to keep the sabbath from creation all the way to mount sinai.

Gen2: 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Here’s the Sabbath at creation before Cain and Abel.

then, it was given to the Jews. no one but the Jews. not the gentiles whatsoever.

So you are saying that sin did not exist from creation to Sinai because Rom.320b for by the law is the knowledge of sin. How do you explain this then?
Genesis 6:5
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

you yourselves do not follow the entire moral law that is attached to the 10 commandments. if you did, you would have stoned your own prophetess for prophecying falsely. you would burn witches, etc. etc. etc. there is much more to the law than just the sabbath or the 10 commandments. until you can honestly say you follow the moral law, and all its punishments and blessings, do not accuse the rest of us of not following something you yourself do not follow. Peace

Well first of all your paranoia is showing Ben I never accused anyone of anything in this post. Paul is talking about THE TEN COMMANDMENTS when he says. Rom.7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. And you know I never could understand this argument. You seem to be saying that because SDA don’t keep the commandments that makes it ok for me to sin. Rom.3:20b for by the law is the knowledge of sin. You also apparently are saying that Catholics are not bound by the law so they cannot sin. Why do you think Jesus came into this world then was it just to save the Jews since they were the only ones capable of sinning?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard Kastner’s consistent posting of out-of-context scriptures is bizarre. In Richard’s mind, there is obviously credence to his cutting-and-pasting of large volumes of non-contextual bible quotes to various conversations, but they are so consistently out-of-context and inappropriate that it’s oftentimes not even worth responding to. There are probably underlying and ongoing [demonic] spiritual issues that are concurrently working here.

Why don’t you want to respond to them? Set me straight me. How have I by taking these vs. out of context, as you say, said anything other than what Moses, John, and Paul intended?

 

[me_again]

It has been asked repeatedly in this forum to**:** Please provide one scripture that is prior to the 10 commandments that orders people to keep the Saturday sabbath. Just one scripture will suffice. Still waiting.

Moses said that the Saturday sabbath was for the Jews only**:**

Remember that you [Jews] were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the [Saturday] Sabbath day. (Deut. 5:15)

A Catholic Church father named Ignatius of Antioch [50-117 AD] wrote in his epistle to the Magnesians**:**

“[T]hose who were brought up in the ancient order of things * have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the [Saturday] Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord’s day [Sunday], on which also our life has sprung up again by him and by his death” (Letter to the Magnesians 8 [A.D. 110]). *