Infrequency in discussing abortion in Mainline Protestantism

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JohnStrachan said:
I know there will be many here who disagree with what I have just said
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I’m not sure why anyone would disagree with you. Certainly we do need the corporal works of mercy and to address the complex underlying issues.

We also need our laws to reflect the reality of the humanity of the unborn person, the immorality of murdering the child, and that our laws should be just. There is a tendency to equate what is “legal” with what is “right” or “moral”. So, if abortion is legal, it must be OK to do it.

It gets to the heart of what laws are for.

So, I don’t see it as either/or. I see it as both/and.
 
dscath said:
I think you are mistaken…while both lives share equal value in the eyes of God, the Church as clearly affirmed that abortion, even to save the life of the mother, is intrinsically evil
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Then, if your interpretation is correct, the Catholic Church is mistaken, and is relegating the life of the mother to secondary.
Secondly, there are almost no circumstances where an abortion cannot be replaced by other means. C-section if the child is old enough to live outside the womb. Treatments for whatever the health condition the mother has that may cause an abortion, but is not intended to do so.
 
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JonNC said:
Then, if your interpretation is correct, the Catholic Church is mistaken, and is relegating the life of the mother to secondary.
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As you probably know, the Church teaches abortion is always wrong, the direct killing of an innocent person. We may never do evil (Abortion) in the pursuit of good (saving the mother).

The doctor has two patients.

Under the principle of double effect, a legitimate life saving treatment that has the unintended consequence of the death of the fetus is not an abortion. Abortion is not a treatment.
 
Well, that’s not very good evidence. You seem to have stated that you are pro-life sites where people literally say that are champions of the unborn but do not support human life once it is born. There are multiple reasons many people believe it is better to vote for Trump than Biden, better to support the party that at least admits to the belief that humans in the womb need defense versus the party that supports killing children in the womb.
I’m a Catholic, and the very first principle of Catholic social thought is the Right to Life. You cannot enact social policies for people if you already are destroying them before they are born.
 
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1ke said:
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JonNC:
Then, if your interpretation is correct, the Catholic Church is mistaken, and is relegating the life of the mother to secondary.
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As you probably know, the Church teaches abortion is always wrong, the direct killing of an innocent person. We may never do evil (Abortion) in the pursuit of good (saving the mother).

The doctor has two patients.

Under the principle of double effect, a legitimate life saving treatment that has the unintended consequence of the death of the fetus is not an abortion. Abortion is not a treatment.
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Thank you. I think that repeats what I mentioned in my second paragraph above.
Treatments targeted at saving the mother may have an abortive effect.
 
Irrrelevant to the subject of your discussion, which is, supporting babies after they are born.

Leaving thread now as you do not seem to be viewing or discussing this logically; makes it impossible to discuss.

I would also remind you that I’m registered Dem.
 
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JonNC said:
Then, if your interpretation is correct, the Catholic Church is mistaken, and is relegating the life of the mother to secondary.
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No. Both lives are of equal value.
JonNC said:
Secondly, there are almost no circumstances where an abortion cannot be replaced by other means.
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This is exactly the point. A direct abortion is not justified to save the life of the mother any more than removing the heart from one sibling to provide a transplant for another would be justified. Fortunately, direct abortion is virtually never the only way to save the life of the mother, and treatment that has the foreseeable effect, but not the immediate goal, of destroying the unborn child is not a direct abortion. One of the most frequent examples is the case of an ectopic pregnancy: A salpingostomy (removing of the fetus from the fallopian tube and closing up the tube) is a direct abortion; a salpingectomy (removal of the diseased/damaged fallopian tube that the fetus happens to be inside) is not a direct abortion.
 
dscath said:
I think you are mistaken…while both lives share equal value in the eyes of God, the Church as clearly affirmed that abortion, even to save the life of the mother, is intrinsically evil…not so much in the LCMS and other Protestant Churches.
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I believe in this case, the LCMS is referring to medical procedures which save the life of the mother, and as a result the child dies, such as in the case of ectopic pregnancy where the fallopian tube is removed to save the life of the mother. This is actually in agreement with the teaching of the Catholic Church. I want to say that the doctrinal paper behind the FAQ answer cited earlier is in agreement with this.
 
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JohnStrachan said:
I beg to differ. POTUS is a moral relativist
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Irrelevant. What is relevant is he endeavored to facilitate the building of an economy that employed as many people as possible, began the trend of increasing wages and income across all sectors of the economy, and spur market growth that helps retired people.
These are all good ways to help people after birth and through all of their lives.
And no new wars, too.
 
The majority of Protestants churches/beliefs think that the personal choices are personal choices and no one has any authority to choose for yourself. It up to you to interpret God’s will through Bible reading, and abortion is not explicitly condemn in the Gospel.

Among many others topics, such as family and sexuality, abortion is perceived as a personal choice.

To be honest, it is mostly an american think that some evangelical churches or individuals are opposed to abortion. In the rest of western world, including Europe, it is not an issue among Protestants official circles. You abort if you want to abort.

certainely making a society more socialized and caring for justice and people needs in all stages of life and screating a more welcoming society that is benefical for everyone.
But you are naive if you think that it would suppress all the desire for abortions. See what is happening is more socialized countries and you would see that abortion is often as frequent than in some others places, because when there is unplanned pregnancies and legal abortion there would be abortions. People choose what is more conveniant for them at a given point, from an economical, relationship, educational, family and so more points.
 
Tis_Bearself said:
This is a connection that exists mostly in your own mind. It shows your own bias and does not stand as evidence.
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You are kidding, right? My Facebook feed is so full of this from people I used to consider serious intellectuals— I can’t even.
 
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JohnStrachan said:
Please tell you don’t think POTUS is a good man.
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A good man? That’s not for me to say. Do I like his lifestyle? No. Is his character something I think people should emulate? No.
Has he done the things I mentioned? Yes!
Are these good things that have helped people? Absolutely.
Is he an advocate for the soon to be born? Yes.
 
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You seem to believe he’s great not because of moral character, but because the stock market rose during his Presidency.
You forget quickly that POTUS…
  1. Owned a fraudulent university
  2. Made it his business practice to stiff creditors
  3. Brags about his own history of sexual abuse
  4. Made up stories about Muslims cheering the destruction of the WTC
  5. Bragged he could shoot a man on 5th Avenue and know one would care
  6. Mocks the disabled
  7. Tells his supporters to beat up protesters
  8. Curries favours for white supremacists
  9. Insults foreign dignitaries
  10. Refuses to make his tax files public
  11. Allowed the people of Puerto Rico to languish after a hurricane
  12. Picks fights with allies while befriending Putin and his buddy Kim Jong Un
  13. Caging and separating children from their parents
But you’ll overlook all this, because he says he’s prolife. You make me weep.
 
JohnStrachan said:
But you’ll overlook all this, because he says he’s prolife. You make me weep.
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Not simply because he’s prolife, but because he is less likely to take my rights away than his opponent. So, yes, it comes down to policy. That’s what he was elected for. Policy.
Weep if you wish.
 
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