Infrequency in discussing abortion in Mainline Protestantism

[OddBird]

Reformed minister here.

In the rest of western world, including Europe, it is not an issue among Protestants official circles. You abort if you want to abort.

Yep, exactly. Some of us are still pro-life, but we often wonder when we’ll be shown the door.

why do our churches so rarely speak out against the horror and injustice of abortion?

I’d say that’s because, here anyway, we’ve abandoned the very notion of objective good. Good is seen as relative - what is good is what is good for you. And who am I to decide what is good for you ?

This is indeed a slippery slope. Now I have a few colleagues who don’t see the problem with euthanasia. And since we don’t have a magisterium, there’s nothing we can do to slow the evolution except trying to teach and preach differently. But as long as our synod doesn’t try and put an end to it (and it won’t), I think we’re doomed.

Here a pastor will have problems if they preach on abortion. But as I even have a pastor friend who got in trouble with his church in another state because he preached on the divinity of Christ, I shouldn’t really be surprised, even though I’m grateful the church in my own state isn’t as far down the road yet.

I’m probably sounding a bit bitter, sorry…

 

[Tommy999]

Why is that?

Non-Catholic friends who are Anglican/Episcopalian, Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterian, why do our churches so rarely speak out against the horror and injustice of abortion?

While my denomination‘s official position kind of straddles the fence on abortion (should be rare but legal), local congregations often exercise autonomy in taking more decisive positions.

For example, my local congregation is encouraged by our pastor to walk alongside him in annual “walk for life” marches. I do this personally. He also is a big proponent of church families who adopt children whose mothers chose life over abortion.

I do wish my national denomination was less wishy-washy and more like the Catholic position in terms of abortion. Sometimes Methodism is too politically correct for my taste and appears to seek neutrality on controversial issues.

 

[Toledo]

Infrequency in discussing abortion in Mainline Protestantism Non-Catholic Religions

You seem to believe he’s great not because of moral character, but because the stock market rose during his Presidency. You forget quickly that POTUS… Owned a fraudulent university Made it his business practice to stiff creditors Brags about his own history of sexual abuse Made up stories about Muslims cheering the destruction of the WTC Bragged he could shoot a man on 5th Avenue and know one would care Mocks the disabled Tells his supporters to beat up protesters Curries favours for white su…

I disagree with a lot of your interpretations, but why should anyone have to make their tax files public? I don’t care if Obama, Nancy Pelosi or any of the Democrats I wouldn’t vote for because of their adherence to evil ideology ever post their tax returns. Why does it matter?

(edit…sorry, quoted wrong post, but for some reason it keeps bringing up this one.)

 

[JohnStrachan]

Just because you disagree doesn’t make them any less true. This is the same man after all that said “grad them right in the p****.” I’d say there is a bit of a moral vacuum at work here. But you and millions of other fellow Americans seem to admire POTUS.

 

[Toledo]

Infrequency in discussing abortion in Mainline Protestantism Non-Catholic Religions

Just because you disagree doesn’t make them any less true. This is the same man after all that said “grad them right in the p****.” I’d say there is a bit of a moral vacuum at work here. But you and millions of other fellow Americans seem to admire POTUS.

I was specifically discussing his taxes, and how why should it matter whether any politician posts them? I don’t care if any do.

As to this President, I agree with many/most of his administration’s policies. He is likely the most pro-life president we’ve had. I admire all the good he has done.

Personally he has some failings (but so do I, as we are all sinners). My most fervent desire for him is to throw away his cell phone/computer/Twitter account, as his desire for fame hurts him and his administration IMO. However the one good thing which has come out of his Twitter love is that we see the immense biases and twistedness of some media.

As to the topic post, abortion and contraception are frequently tied together (which practicing Catholics know). The disaster for many mainline Protestants with regards to their views of abortion is probably tied to many of them officially approving contraception 65-90 years ago.

 

[TK421]

Teaching is only as effective as following…while many Protestant denominations do not teach all abortion is immoral, the Catholic Church does, but statistics show that the number of Catholic women who have elective abortions has been as high as 25% of all abortions.

Something that bears being reflected upon each and every day we wake up, regardless of the subject. As Catholics we are a privileged people and we did nothing to deserve this.

Peace.

 

[Tommy999]

millions of other fellow Americans seem to admire POTUS

Some of us don’t admire the current POTUS in his past personal moral behavior or in his tone and rhetoric but voted for him nonetheless because we considered him to be the better (or least worst) of two less-than-ideal choices.

 

[Anicette]

I’d say that’s because, here anyway, we’ve abandoned the very notion of objective good. Good is seen as relative - what is good is what is good for you. And who am I to decide what is good for you ?

I am correct that it is the logical fruit of the essence of Protestantism? Everybody should read the Bible and is free to interpret it without any official interpretation (by a Church?)
If everybody is free to have his own opinions, it include abortion- and given the evolution to the mores, and the Switzeland legislation- euthanasia.

Remember me an article that I read more 15 years before. A german pastor woman said that in Germany the Church would not approved eutanasia because germans make a parallel with nazism given to their history. Whereas in Protestand Churches in Holland, the values of individual autonomy are valorized for the eutanasia debate.

In short, the faithfull tend to adopt the cultural values of their area.

Here a pastor will have problems if they preach on abortion.

Sad but understandable. If the official is that the Church is for abortion, faithfull will not understand why…
But how a pastor who is against abortion can manage to “minister” his parishioners? For eg, a woman who come for support and prayer because she has scheduled an abortion?

But as I even have a pastor friend who got in trouble with his church in another state because he preached on the divinity of Christ,

That’s another topic…

Does the divine and human nature of the Christ is (still?) a “dogma” in the EPU? (Is there any dogma?)

I’m probably sounding a bit bitter, sorry…

I am sorry that you have to feel that way.

 

[OddBird]

I am correct that it is the logical fruit of the essence of Protestantism? Everybody should read the Bible and is free to interpret it without any official interpretation (by a Church?)

I’d say yes, it is. The French-speaking Reformation insisted on the notion of “libre examen” (no idea what it is in English), which basically rejects the argument of authority and upholds freedom of evaluation.

When I was younger and more naive, I thought the fact our churches had creeds was a protection against the excesses of that thought system, but it isn’t. Some have abandoned creeds altogether in favor of non-binding “declarations of faith” (like the EPUdF; my own Swiss church still refers to the Nicene and Apostles’ Creeds). Another consequence is church shopping – going from church to church until I find one which basically agrees with me, instead of allowing my conscience to be formed by the church.

So yes, it’s an inevitable consequence.

But how a pastor who is against abortion can manage to “minister” his parishioners? For eg, a woman who come for support and prayer because she has scheduled an abortion?

It never happened to me with abortion, but it does happen with euthanasia – people who have scheduled their death and ask for a last pastoral visit. I simply say “In conscience, I cannot approve of euthanasia, but I can sympathize with what you are going through, and I can most certainly be there for you and pray for you.” People generally don’t take issue with that, even though, often, they desire a “pastoral seal of approval” I cannot give.

That’s another topic…

Well, yes and no. You cannot really expect a church to uphold Christian morals when it scraps basic Christian doctrine… Our ex-president here understood that quite well when he launched a subtle campaign to undermine doctrine in order to get an approval for same-sex blessings at the federal synod. He got it.

I am sorry that you have to feel that way.

Thank you. I’m just biding my time until I can leave.

 

[JonNC]

I am correct that it is the logical fruit of the essence of Protestantism? Everybody should read the Bible and is free to interpret it without any official interpretation (by a Church?)

As a lifelong Lutheran (with a brief stop off in continuing Anglican) , raised by a Lutheran pastor, I was never once told to read the Bible and interpret it as I choose.
Instead, I was told that, as Lutherans, we read scripture through the lens of the confessions. The Lutheran Confessions, I was taught, is a right reflection of scripture. Doctrine is doctrine.

So, this notion of personal interpretation is entirely contrary to what I was taught, which leads me to my response to all topics “Protestant”.
Regarding practice and doctrine, use of the term Protestant is folly.

 

[Anicette]

Thanks you @JonNC.

By Protestant we commonly understand a Christian that is not Catholic or Orthodox. Whose origins come from after the Reformation.

Yes, Protestant is a general term that seems too vague to describe the differences between denominations. It seems to me that the protestant denominations that are heritage of Calvinism and others reformers are very differents from Pentecotism for eg.

Seems that the situation is very complicated, someone who is presenting himself as a Lutheran seminarist from the Wisconsin synod even writte me here that the Europeans Lutherans are no longer like they was before, so very differents from them…

Can we say that Lutherans are a little different from others “protestant” christians in how they are guided in their interpretation of the Bible? (through the lens of confessions?)

 

[Anicette]

it does happen with euthanasia – people who have scheduled their death and ask for a last pastoral visit.

Sad fruit of leaving in a country that had legalized euthanasia…
And that is presented as a model to followed from more restricted and liberal countries… And is a place of “letal turism” for people who wants to comit suicide in a cleaner “medical” way…

I can be bitter too.

Maybe I am over sensible but I think to manage the cases you see as a pastor require a lot of maturity, some detachment from the act and others people choice and a lot of empathy…to not end demoralized…

Remember me a day when I help to sell books… we had an author who sell a book on how whe had try to euthanized her son… and make people sign a petition for the legalization of euthanasy…
I never finished the day…

Well, yes and no. You cannot really expect a church to uphold Christian morals when it scraps basic Christian doctrine… Our ex-president here understood that quite well when he launched a subtle campaign to undermine doctrine in order to get an approval for same-sex blessings at the federal synod. He got it.

very sad to learn that the situation is the same as in France… as you know…

If until now the pastor (and a local church?) can refuse, I wait the day when someone will claim it is a discrimination and homophobic, so that would be the end of the tolerance of a opt out that may be more or less like a conscience clause…

I also remember a article with an episcopal Church who made a vote to supress the masculine pronum for God and a campaign from a Lutheran Swedish Church for Christmas where they refuse to call baby Jesus with a “he” because he is too young to be assigned a sex…
Does the evolutions followed the secular evolutions or accompagny them…?

 

[JonNC]

By Protestant we commonly understand a Christian that is not Catholic or Orthodox. Whose origins come from after the Reformation.

Yes, Protestant is a general term that seems too vague to describe the differences between denominations. It seems to me that the protestant denominations that are heritage of Calvinism and others reformers are very differents from Pentecotism for eg.

And all of these are different from Lutheranism.

Can we say that Lutherans are a little different from others “protestant” christians in how they are guided in their interpretation of the Bible? (through the lens of confessions?)

Knowing that other Protestants do not accept the Lutheran confessions, it is safe to assume they do not view scripture that way. How these different traditions/ communions/ denominations practice hermeneutics is up to them, and I’m honestly not sure how each one does. I do know that from the Lutheran view sola scriptura is not private interpretation.

I hope that helps.

 

[OddBird]

Can we say that Lutherans are a little different from others “protestant” christians in how they are guided in their interpretation of the Bible? (through the lens of confessions?)

I’m not @JonNC, but I should have been clearer that what I said is true of francophone European Reformed Protestantism. After all, from the very beginning, we’ve had Sébastien Castellion.

 

[mcq72]

Despite the fact that I left the RC church in 2010, one thing that i continue to admire is their devotion to life and protection of the unborn.

Not sure this necessarily true, or hard to quantify the differences in Catholics and Protestants. This may include the actions of respective politicians as policy makers.

I know i seem to be more offended or disappointed when a Catholic elected official supports abortion policies. Seems like all the Catholic teaching and hierarchy and disciplinary measures which the church has seem unused on its wayward members. Again, can not quantify this.