"Inhouse extravagance"

[Brian_Reeves]

Where does ‘lavish’ end… I know some people that think even having a banner in church that says ‘King of Kings’ is too extravagant…

what abut quakers (correct me if I am wrong) I am sure they would see pretty much any modern church as ‘Lavish’…

Why not decry people like Olstean, TD Jakes, et al… they make bokoos from there church and books…

DO you judge yourself by the same standards? Is there anything in your life someone else could say is ‘extravagant’?

are there theives in the mix… yup… but to condemn the church that gives more than anyone?

very interesting

In Christ

Yes I am sure that someone could look at my lifestyle and be justifiably critical, but then I do try. As I have already said I am a member of the Third Order Fransicans and do take that seriously, but then that is between God and myself.
Of course the R.C. church may give more than anyone else but then it is the largest church in the world, but then I wonder how it would fair if it was taken on a pro rata head of membership compaired to other churches.

 

[Brian_Reeves]

Considering that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is literally “Heaven on earth,” I don’t see why any Mass setting should NOT be extravagant. The Book of Revelation describes lots and lots of gold in Heaven in the form of golden lampstands and crowns. There’s even a crystal sea, and doesn’t it mention gems, too?

Your concern for the poor is not something I’m trying to argue against, only your seeming insistence that our worship of God should be cheapened.

 

[jmcrae]

Yes the ring is gone, but do you, or I, know what effects such a gift has had made.

Well, my point is that it didn’t end poverty in the third world.

A “parking lot” wouldn’t have the seating !

The poor don’t have chairs!!

I’m just simply suggesting that a lot of the “extravagant frills” could have trimmed.

To what end? Unless they took money that was specifically designated for the poor, and spent it on lavish frills for the Pope, I don’t see how it could have benefitted the poor to have Pope Benedict received in a plain manner.

Otherwise, the money would either go back into the bank or be spent on a different celebration, somewhere else.

 

[Brian_Reeves]

No, no, no, I am not saying “our worship of God should be cheapened”. Primarily worship of God is made with the heart, that’s where it begins and what He desires. So a mass in the bush in Africa, if it is in the most elaborate church with all the gilt and glitter IF it is not made with the heart, But them I’m sure you agree with that. When I go to a mass and there is continual loud talking before and after the service, the responses are less than half hearted as is the hymn singing , and so on and so on. Your know all the signs as well as me. All the glitter and gold will not bring it to life. But then we are getting off the subject.

 

[clmowry]

At this moment I am looking at the pictures of “Pope Benedict XVI celebrates Mass at Yankee Stadium, New York” from the “The Catholic Times” and as I look at the lavish setting erected for this occasion my mind then goes to the millions who are crouching around stagnant pools of filthy water trying to get a drink to literally save their lives !!! I just cannot resolve the two and I believe that Jesus weeps, not only for the terrible state of the world but of that of His church.

I would focus your attention on doing what you can to relieve the suffering of the poor rather than looking to eliminate the “lavish”.

The later is pretty much a waste of time.

One man’s “lavish” is another mans “pious worship.”

God seemed to have much more “lavish” specifications for His tent and the garb of His priest.

Chuck

 

[clmowry]

Brian_Reeves:
Of course the R.C. church may give more than anyone else but then it is the largest church in the world, but then I wonder how it would fair if it was taken on a pro rata head of membership compaired to other churches.

I would guess that once you toss in all the personal donations of all the Catholics in the world we would come in second to the Mormons.

If I am not mistaken, they are “all” “required” to give 10% of their gross income to the Church.

I am not sure how much of that ends up in the hands of the poor but as a “charitable donation” as a percent of “income” 10% across the board is probably pretty tuff to beat.

Chuck

 

[MarcoPolo]

One man’s “lavish” is another mans “pious worship.

Ditto that. I didn’t find it “lavish”.

Also John Martignoni addressed financial “efficiency” of the Church in one of his newsletters. Full article here. Excerpt below:
*About 20 years ago, Peter Drucker, the management consultant, concluded that the three most efficient organizations in history were General Motors, the 19th-century Prussian Army, and the Catholic Church. He put the Church on his list because it manages to hold a worldwide organization together with an exceptionally small central headquarters. For the 1.1 billion Catholics, there are about 1,700 people working in the [Vatican]. As Drucker pointed out, if the same ratio were applied to our government in Washington, D.C., there would be 500 federal employees working in the capital, as opposed to roughly 500,000.*And let’s not forget that for Christ’s glory, it is not necessarily bad to demonstrate visibly:
*Matthew 26:7-12 …a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.” Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? **She has done a beautiful thing to me. **The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.*Was the formality of Jesus’ proper burial more wasteful than feeding the poor? Jesus did not think so here. If the Pope was always dining in expensive restaurants on the dime of the people or buying Lamborghinis with the donations, then there might be a problem. But what we saw at Yankee Stadium is too subjective to claim as “extravagant” when it was for all the people attending and watching.

 

[Teflon93]

At this moment I am looking at the pictures of “Pope Benedict XVI celebrates Mass at Yankee Stadium, New York” from the “The Catholic Times” and as I look at the lavish setting erected for this occasion my mind then goes to the millions who are crouching around stagnant pools of filthy water trying to get a drink to literally save their lives !!! I just cannot resolve the two and I believe that Jesus weeps, not only for the terrible state of the world but of that of His church.

Be careful—remember who made a very similar argument in the Gospel.

 

[SORROWS]

B. Reeves - you keep saying you are a Third Order Franciscan but you seem to have quite a bit of time to spend on the computer.


Just wondering when your travel plans will be including the impoverished areas of the world to do the good you feel should be done. Threre are so many amazing missionaries out there who are commended for laborously working for the poor in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Will you be joining them??

We can all do our part to alleviate the sufferings of the poor but to denounce our countrys reception of the most worthy recipient on earth Pope Benedict is a diservice to all Catholics and non catholics who enjoyed his few days visit.

 

[e61iuser]

No, no, no, I am not saying “our worship of God should be cheapened”. Primarily worship of God is made with the heart, that’s where it begins and what He desires. So a mass in the bush in Africa, if it is in the most elaborate church with all the gilt and glitter IF it is not made with the heart, But them I’m sure you agree with that. When I go to a mass and there is continual loud talking before and after the service, the responses are less than half hearted as is the hymn singing , and so on and so on. Your know all the signs as well as me. All the glitter and gold will not bring it to life. But then we are getting off the subject.

I agree with you that a Mass held in the bush of Africa is just as meaningful as one with all the gilt and glitter you’ve seen, and I agree with you that primary worship of God is with the heart, but we must never neglect the other gifts of God to us, which are the other parts of our body. Our eyes, our ears, our sense of taste and touch and smell.

Most if not all of these senses are engaged once they’re in Mass. As Catholics we use them all to glorify God when we worship Him. We do not disassociate our physical from our spiritual because we know that all of it is God’s creation, and as such can be used for His Glory. All the pomp and glamor you see is also a way of worship that utilizes God’s gifts to us in order for us to be able to glorify He who gave them to us.

The poor will always be with us, but it is not only those who are materially poor. There are those who are spiritually poor, and if all this “glitz” serves to lift their spirits and have them worship God, then I would say that it was money well-spent on the part of the Church.

 

[Brian_Reeves]

But why should we have the view that “the poor will always be with us”. I’m just not going to accept that even though that may well be where the world is heading. And how will “all this glitz” raise the sights of the spiritually poor to a higher level of worship. I believe that is up to the priests both in their teaching and example and, what is even more important, the prayers of the rest of the church.

 

[Teflon93]

But why should we have the view that “the poor will always be with us”. I’m just not going to accept that even though that may well be where the world is heading. And how will “all this glitz” raise the sights of the spiritually poor to a higher level of worship. I believe that is up to the priests both in their teaching and example and, what is even more important, the prayers of the rest of the church.

Because Christ told us it would always be so, and we believe him.

Let’s not let our genuine love for neighbor and social justice blind us to Christ, who came not to make us rich but to make us free.

 

[e61iuser]

But why should we have the view that “the poor will always be with us”. I’m just not going to accept that even though that may well be where the world is heading. And how will “all this glitz” raise the sights of the spiritually poor to a higher level of worship. I believe that is up to the priests both in their teaching and example and, what is even more important, the prayers of the rest of the church.

I don’t know about you, but if Jesus says “for you always have the poor with you”, I’m believing Him, not you.

It seems you’ve completely ignored what I’ve said about worshiping God with our whole bodies. That’s okay. I guess you just don’t roll that way.

I guess you’ve never felt exhilarated by the sound of a symphony in perfect tone. Or you’ve never looked at a diamond and thought “God I’m so thankful you’ve given me the opportunity to see this magnificent creation of Yours”. Or you’ve never tasted the perfect chocolate drink and suddenly thought how a small bean in a far-off forest was suddenly found to produce such a concoction and how God Himself must have designed it to be such because He loves you so much and so that we could enjoy it.

Only God knows how many of our spiritually poor and oppressed brethren saw the extravagant Mass and said to themselves “these people are worshiping God with all their might. I’m ashamed of how little faith I have. I have to worship Him more”.

 

[MarcoPolo]

And how will “all this glitz” raise the sights of the spiritually poor to a higher level of worship.

If you were Moses and God was giving you instructions on how to build the Ark of the Covenant with a bunch of gold and statues and precision craftsmanship and “glitz”, would you say, “Nuh uh, God. This is a waste.” Or would you say, “Ah, this is something special.”

 

[Teflon93]

And why do we seek to deny the poor beauty and art? The poorest parishes cherish their churches, which are often very beautiful, quite often more beautiful than some of the wealthy suburban churches I’ve been to.

 

[jmcrae]

And why do we seek to deny the poor beauty and art? The poorest parishes cherish their churches, which are often very beautiful, quite often more beautiful than some of the wealthy suburban churches I’ve been to.

True; the Church belongs to the poor, and there is no reason to deny them great art and nice furniture in Church, just because they can’t have it at home.

 

[Thing]

Think about all the poor artists, (some do actually starve for a few days now and again), you support when you commission the artwork for churches. The poor do not just live under a bush in a faraway country, y’know…
Support the poor - support your local artist.

 

[Thing]

[SIGN]Support the poor - support your local artist.[/SIGN]

 

[zagjames]

More to the point, sybols and physical things help us better understand our faith. If you have a priest celebrating Mass with just a t shirt and a pair a shorts soon will come to view what he does as no big deal. If the chalice is made of clay instead of gold you will soon believe the blood is not that precious. These “extravegant” items help reenforce our faith, they help us better realize the truth of what is taught.

Some of the most ornate Churches in america are in what are now and always have been working class neighborhoods. They find truth in God, and want to honor with all they can. That means building beautiful houses of worship and helping the poor.

 

[zjl56]

I’m most sure that every thing used at the papal mass was either just borrowed or donated, the altar and pretty much everything not hastily made will probably sure some function within the Churches of East Coast.