Inmates in NY, evacuation and the Hurricane

[Rence]

The point is that if society elects to assume responsibility for the care of 14,000 folk, then it has a moral responsibility to them. If the thing standing in the way of doing so is that there are 14,000 of them in one place, then it needs to look at how it organizes the infrastructure involved - e.g., smaller correctional facities that offer a better hope of being managed in this sort of situation.

I don’t believe imprisoning criminals means that the State has assumed responsibility for their care. Rather, the inmates have broken the law, and have been separated from society in order to protect society and prevent the inmates from breaking more laws. That doesn’t mean that the State has to drop everything, compromise it’s citizens during a disaster, and take manpower away from disaster management and relief efforts from citizens and shift them over to the prisons. It’s okay if there are those who wish to work towards the evacuation of prisoners during natural disasters. But they should be active in those efforts and not just directive in nature.

 

[pnewton]

FYI - Let me shed some informed opinion on this topic. I have been on the receiving end of that criticism, having gone through two major hurricanes, in a coastal area, and not evacuated inmates. Hurricanes are not magic. It is possible to build against damage, especially once you are away from the storm surge. The building our prisoners are housed is the same structure through which our emergency operations are coordinated. In addition to these prisoners, police, fire fighters, medical personnel and a myriad of other ride out the storm in this structure to be able to assist others as soon as possible after the storm, and to work up to the last possible minute.

TDC evacuated their inmates, but then those people have some place to go. It is far more logical just to make sure the prison is safe, especially since the same thing that makes it safe makes it secure.

 

[exnihilo]

Noting your criticism that the whole issue was over-hyped, my question might be purely hypothetical. Do you not think that the state has an obligation to protect and provide at least basic safety to those in its care?

Yes, I believe the state most certainly does. And, though I’m not a lawyer, my understanding is that the law maintains as much. For instance the police have no general obligation to protect you. They do have some obligation to protect you once you are in their custody (meaning arrested or under other special relationships).

Practically speaking US jails are some of the most violent and dangerous places in the world. One might think this is just how jails are but US jails apparently are much more dangerous than elsewhere in the world. The state does a terrible job of protecting inmates in normal times as they are subject to tremendous violence.

I would say the state should try to protect the life of prisoners from natural disasters but in doing so should not greatly endanger non-prisoners or guards. Practically speaking it might not be possible to evacuate all inmates of a prison with short notice.

 

[pnewton]

Yes, I believe the state most certainly does.

Yes, there is such an obligation. I disagree that jails and prisons are as dangerous as you make out though. Here is an interesting article comparing those in prison to the general population.
ojp.usdoj.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/2007/BJS07010.htm

There is more proximate medical care, and in situations like a hurricane, either evacuation or a secured structure. Like I said earlier, while the hospitals are closed, we have medical staff.

 

[Hastrman]

Yes, there is such an obligation. I disagree that jails and prisons are as dangerous as you make out though. Here is an interesting article comparing those in prison to the general population.
ojp.usdoj.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/2007/BJS07010.htm

There is more proximate medical care, and in situations like a hurricane, either evacuation or a secured structure. Like I said earlier, while the hospitals are closed, we have medical staff.

This was my thinking: I bet a prison (sturdy concrete walls…) is a fairly safe place to be, in a hurricane, though you might have “cabin fever” issues.

But yeah, since the incarcerated have been forced to surrender their rights to defend themselves (since they could also be used to hurt their fellow prisoners, or escape their punishment), it is incumbent on those charged with overseeing them to protect them from things like this. Also from each other.

 

[exnihilo]

Yes, there is such an obligation. I disagree that jails and prisons are as dangerous as you make out though. Here is an interesting article comparing those in prison to the general population.
ojp.usdoj.gov/newsroom/pressreleases/2007/BJS07010.htm

There is more proximate medical care, and in situations like a hurricane, either evacuation or a secured structure. Like I said earlier, while the hospitals are closed, we have medical staff.

This press release is dealing with death not incidents of violence. And it being the government they tried to obfuscate. In this very report they say of deaths ‘8 percent were due to suicide or homicide’. I dont know why you’d wrap up suicide with homicide. But they do. The non-prison population has nowhere near an 8 percent chance of dying by murder or suicide.

 

[Hastrman]

This press release is dealing with death not incidents of violence. And it being the government they tried to obfuscate. In this very report they say of deaths ‘8 percent were due to suicide or homicide’. I dont know why you’d wrap up suicide with homicide. But they do. The non-prison population has nowhere near an 8 percent chance of dying by murder or suicide.

Well, suicide is the same thing as murder, it’s just the culprit and the victim are the same person. Or in other words, they’re “intentional killing” as opposed to “death by accident, illness, or age”.

 

[pnewton]

This press release is dealing with death not incidents of violence. And it being the government they tried to obfuscate.

I don’t blame you for distrust of any statistic. I can speak for myself when I say prisons are safer. Yes, murder and suicide are far more prevalent, yet the proximity of emergency health care lowers the death rate. Yes, violence is greater inside a prison. That is what you get when criminals are put together. However, most violence in violent inmate on violent inmate, due to a classification system. This is but one reason why prison is to be avoided.

But as to the topic, hurricanes are not an issue. When you commit a crime, part of the freedom you give up is the ability to decide the safest course for you during such an incident. That decision will be made for you. This is another reason to avoid prison.

 

[Hastrman]

But as to the topic, hurricanes are not an issue. When you commit a crime, part of the freedom you give up is the ability to decide the safest course for you during such an incident. That decision will be made for you. This is another reason to avoid prison.

Well, as I said above, while the state has to make you give up the freedom to defend yourself or run away (since you might use them to hurt others or escape), they are obligated, because of that, to protect you.

It’s a form of Social Contract: if a right is surrendered, responsibility for it is taken on by the entity it’s surrendered to.

 

[didymus]

Yes, I believe the state most certainly does. And, though I’m not a lawyer, my understanding is that the law maintains as much. For instance the police have no general obligation to protect you. They do have some obligation to protect you once you are in their custody (meaning arrested or under other special relationships).

Practically speaking US jails are some of the most violent and dangerous places in the world. One might think this is just how jails are but US jails apparently are much more dangerous than elsewhere in the world. The state does a terrible job of protecting inmates in normal times as they are subject to tremendous violence.

I would say the state should try to protect the life of prisoners from natural disasters but in doing so should not greatly endanger non-prisoners or guards. Practically speaking it might not be possible to evacuate all inmates of a prison with short notice.

Agreed.
I would point out that Rikers is a* jail* not a prison. Everyone in a prison has been convicted of a felony.
Not so jails, they are a mix. You have some folks who have been found guilty of misdemeanors punishable by a year or less; a large percentage waiting trial (for everything from tax evasion to serial murder) all presumed innocent and some in fact innocent; people held for contempt of court, mostly men who have fallen behind on child support. Last, let’s not forget snitches in protective custody.

From what little I’ve read they do make an effort to keep different levels of prisoners segregated but it is probably impossible to enforce effectively all the time.
So to everyone saying, “they’re all dangerous criminals!”, um, no.