Inquisition, Crusades, Indulgences ....

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Distracted,

You say the priest asked you to instead pray…this is what my impression is when protestants will come on different threads and begin the same debate again, but with new people. Somebody finally told this one person that the issue is faith and he needed to pray.

That is what I would advise those to do regarding indulgences.
i’m kinda confused… don’t know which post of mine you’re referring to…?:confused:

the priest asked me to pray??

i dont recall where i said that…?

I have said that the priest told me to pray b4 the Blessed Sacrament… but i guess i dont consider that … praying…

or at least when u said Pray… i got a different image in my mind…

so… not sure what you are saying here…??:confused:
 
A few comments
  1. Mexico, the center of learning? Hm! The Spanish conquerers didn’t seem to think so, and slaughtered many of the Aztecs and others there. Which group was it that cut out the hearts of those they defeated while the victims were still alive?
  2. The miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Do Catholics have to believe that? I have trouble with the idea that Mary imprinted her image on Diego’s cloak. Probably a result of my modern, scientifically-infuenced mind. I wonder if this is one of those places where Christianity borrrowed from paganism (and compromised with paganism) to win converts. I don’t know, Just wondering.
  3. Remember that the ‘Father of Protestantism’ was a Roman Catholic Augustinian monk. He tried to reform the church but was ordered to conform instead. Whatever else he was or was not, he was courageous, as there was a license to kill him. A friendly prince provided him a refuge in his castle, else who probably would have been murdered.
  4. While Luther gets the credit or blame or the Reformation, there were many ‘reformers’ who preceded him, among them Wycliffe, Waldo (and the Waldensians) and Hus. The Waldensians are little known today, but some of them fled into the mountains of Italy and survived. A few years back, I’ve heard, they united with the Methodists of Italy.
  5. All this petty quarreling between Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox can get out of hand. My own view is that God doesn’t care that much. When Christ was asked how to inherit eternal life, he said nothing about doctrine. He said love God and your fellow humans. To illustrate, he told the parable of the Good Samaritan in which the hero was a despised member of a different religion who had married outside the faith. That should tell us something.
God bless our sisters and brothers of every creed, color and country. When God checks us out, I suspect none of that matters. He looks at our hearts not at our religious affiliation. I believe some pagans will get to heaven before some ‘good Christians’ who sit in pious judgment on others. Hm! Did I just judge others there? Hope not. I will let God do that,
 
Roy,

When I read remarks like yours, it really puts me out. Because I see this slant all the time, grew up with it my whole life.

How many times do you hear Catholics going on a blitz to defame any claim by protestants. I don’t make the time to go on other forums.

I studied Mexican history for over a year, studied the various Indian tribes going back to the Toltecs, the Mayans, how Mexico began under the Aztecs, the civilization that brought great admiration to the Spanish, and how the missionaries tried very hard to help the people there. What prompted me was reading the story of Our Lady of Guadalupe. In the end, it was the native Indians who slaughtered the Aztecs because they stole their children, tore their hearts out in human sacrifice.

So who is slaughtering who??? The Masonic Revolution destroyed Mexico as the center of learning for the New World. Bishop Zumarraga gave the women and girls a right to an education hundreds of years before it happened in this country. He is up for sainthood.

My girlfriend, an Afro American and former Baptist, sent me an email of all that we Catholics can be proud of considering the mindset that has been here ever since our country’s beginnings. Catholics have not been the source of prejudice and mistreatment of other people, but like in the South, have returned prejudice by building educational centers and hospitals opened to all people.

Again, the ‘Christians’ need to see their own prejudice and bias.
 
A few comments
  1. Mexico, the center of learning? Hm! The Spanish conquerers didn’t seem to think so, and slaughtered many of the Aztecs and others there. Which group was it that cut out the hearts of those they defeated while the victims were still alive?
What?? where do you get your info? in fact, for that matter, what are you even trying to say here? not sure i get it… The Aztecs sacrificed 1000s… and Cortes and his men stopped them from doing that… Even the Aztec leader Quetzlcoatl, who did NOT wnat human sacrifice… was predicted by the Aztecs to return and the year they predicted was 1519 which was the yr Cortes showed up with his men… At 1st the Aztecs thought Cortes WAS Quetzlecoatl… but in any case, Cortest stopped the bloodshed and converted the Aztecs…
  1. The miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Do Catholics have to believe that?
why is that so hard to believe? I would think it would be harder to believe such things as… that Martin Luther was a holy person… Yeah, that kinda thing would seem to require… uh… some creative thinking… Eveer read The Facts About Luther? yikes… foulest mouth i’ve ever heard… didn’t know men of God were supposed to talk like that… and then there was how he made that comment once that a person could commit adultery 20 times a day and it wouldn’t affect his salvation… That contradicts the Scriptures… but oh well… gotta believe in OnceSavedAlwaysSaved… scripture or no scripture…
 
This is the kind of mindset that really irks me… some people should get sum educashun…

Distracted, you mentioned how you had trouble understanding papal infallibility and the priest asked you to go before the Blessed Sacrament and you said doing so helped you go forward…I call going before the Blessed Sacrament as praying…if I misunderstood you, sorry.
 
A few comments
  1. Mexico, the center of learning? Hm! The Spanish conquerers didn’t seem to think so, and slaughtered many of the Aztecs and others there. Which group was it that cut out the hearts of those they defeated while the victims were still alive?
  2. The miracle of Our Lady of Guadalupe. Do Catholics have to believe that? I have trouble with the idea that Mary imprinted her image on Diego’s cloak. Probably a result of my modern, scientifically-infuenced mind. I wonder if this is one of those places where Christianity borrrowed from paganism (and compromised with paganism) to win converts. I don’t know, Just wondering.
  3. Remember that the ‘Father of Protestantism’ was a Roman Catholic Augustinian monk. He tried to reform the church but was ordered to conform instead. Whatever else he was or was not, he was courageous, as there was a license to kill him. A friendly prince provided him a refuge in his castle, else who probably would have been murdered.
  4. While Luther gets the credit or blame or the Reformation, there were many ‘reformers’ who preceded him, among them Wycliffe, Waldo (and the Waldensians) and Hus. The Waldensians are little known today, but some of them fled into the mountains of Italy and survived. A few years back, I’ve heard, they united with the Methodists of Italy.
  5. All this petty quarreling between Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox can get out of hand. My own view is that God doesn’t care that much. When Christ was asked how to inherit eternal life, he said nothing about doctrine. He said love God and your fellow humans. To illustrate, he told the parable of the Good Samaritan in which the hero was a despised member of a different religion who had married outside the faith. That should tell us something.
God bless our sisters and brothers of every creed, color and country. When God checks us out, I suspect none of that matters. He looks at our hearts not at our religious affiliation. I believe some pagans will get to heaven before some ‘good Christians’ who sit in pious judgment on others. Hm! Did I just judge others there? Hope not. I will let God do that,
you are so right Roy. God looks at our heart.
 
Guerny,

My past jjourney and my own tribulation within the Church caused me to let go of alot of things and to just look at the Apostolic tradition, the spirit of faith within the Church, to keep my focus on God’s will and those who try to do likewise. I am in a place now that allows it and am very happy for it.
 
As Jeeves would say, it depends on the psychology of the individual. For me, the crusades, Inquisition and history of corruption in the church, up unto the present day is able reason to stay out of the church. History is real to me, as if it all happened yesterday.

…but for others, it is not this way. Then was then, now is now. People must decide for themselves what is really important to them.
 
Anode, the problem I have demonstrated is that people are drawing on very anti-Catholic information, some of it conjectured. I was thinking last night about people pointing out such things that are not objective, and totally malign my church. They refuse to acknowledge any good.

I myself believed all of the evil of the Catholic Church in Mexico…until I read the story of Mary of Guadalupe…so beautiful…read a number of history books on Mexico and a more balanced picture of what happened there. I was very surprised to find out how ahead Mexico was in comparison to the USA.

Mexico has never recovered from the Masonic Revolution.

The documents of the Spanish Inquisition were not opened until 2003, and the Church did not kill 25 million people like the various fundamentalist sects are teaching.

So looking at the heart goes both ways…a good heart seeks the truth about others.
 
Uh, excuse me, when did I “lecture” you about knowing what a fallacy is? I simply said that I know what it is. And have you considered that if I read every single link that people lazily throw down that I’d be here until doomsday? I prefer to state my opinions rather than giving links to others that do it for me. You have a different approach. That’s fine. I know what a fallacy is so I don’t need to read your link. That makes sense to me. I know what gravity is so why go to a link and waste ten minutes of my life I’ll never get back reading about gravity? 😉
What you have not acknowledged was that I didn’t just say fallacy and link to what fallacy meant. I named a paticular fallacy and linked to that definition. You then didn’t bother to read it and lectured me that you knew the definition if fallacy.
We’ve all been to college and taken logic, adrift. But thanks for the refresher course! I’ve been speaking like a layman and not a master of antiquities and rhetoric for so many years now, I almost forgot how to speak like this! 👍
All of this is a passive aggresive way of ignoring the main point. Your statement in the post I was referring to are untrue because they are fallacies.
 
A few comments
  1. Mexico, the center of learning? Hm! The Spanish conquerers didn’t seem to think so, and slaughtered many of the Aztecs and others there. Which group was it that cut out the hearts of those they defeated while the victims were still alive?
I think that Mexico was a center for learning after the Spanish conquest, moreover, there was no slaughter of the Aztecs (most of them died via infectious diseases carried by the conquistadors). Also, recollect that the Spanish conquistadors were few in number (about 600 soldiers or so) as compared to the millions of Aztecs, i.e., I hardly think they could have slaughtered the Aztecs in any practical or conceivable way (even with the help of other indigenous tribes). Furthermore, it was the Aztecs that killed tens of thousands per annum (on many occasions entire tribes of people were killed in instances of human sacrifice to their temple gods) by cutting their hearts while still alive and then later eating the limbs of the bodies that were thrown down the temple steps. In other words, a vicious civilization was destroyed by the conquistadors (and their allies), and I for one am glad of it. The courage and determination of Cortes and many of his cohorts were due mainly to their determination to see evil destroyed and truth prevail, i.e. to bring Christianity to the Aztecs who were worshipping devils.

to be continued . . . .
 
Anode, the problem I have demonstrated is that people are drawing on very anti-Catholic information, some of it conjectured. I was thinking last night about people pointing out such things that are not objective, and totally malign my church. They refuse to acknowledge any good.

I myself believed all of the evil of the Catholic Church in Mexico…until I read the story of Mary of Guadalupe…so beautiful…read a number of history books on Mexico and a more balanced picture of what happened there. I was very surprised to find out how ahead Mexico was in comparison to the USA.

Mexico has never recovered from the Masonic Revolution.

The documents of the Spanish Inquisition were not opened until 2003, and the Church did not kill 25 million people like the various fundamentalist sects are teaching.

So looking at the heart goes both ways…a good heart seeks the truth about others.
I’m not quoting fundamentalist sects. I don’t there were 25 million people in Europe then, certainly not Spain, certainly not Jews. But Spain and Portugal kicked out the Jews in 1492, something Spain would pay for for centuries, and then ‘inquisitioned’ the remaining to make sure they had truly converted, torturing and burning many. These are the facts. The Dominicans appear to be especially involved.

google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.bridgeman.co.uk/cgi-bin/bridgemanImage.cgi/400.XIR.2149710.7055475/176233.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.bridgemaninteriors.com/tag/auto%2520de%2520fe&h=322&w=400&sz=55&tbnid=J8l2LVv9hOGP-M:&tbnh=100&tbnw=124&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSt.%2BDominican%2Bburning%2Bheretics%2Bimage&usg=__njhD6ca6ELrmHyh-fAGHikJG4kg=&ei=g3nxS7DSNY7esgPeubytDg&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=8&ct=image&ved=0CCcQ9QEwBw

—various images, one of St. Dominic presiding over the burning of heretics (I don’t know if he ever did) and autos da fe in Spain. Apparently St. Vicente Ferrer especially despised Jews. Many Jews fled to New Spain, and when the Inquisition came to Mexico City, fled north with the Spanish explorers into what would become New Mexico. There they survived as ‘cryptojews’, some knowing their Jewish ancestry, others discovering their origins only in the 20th c. Most of them were Catholics by then, but a few converted back to Judaism.

History of the Jews in Spain:

jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=992&letter=S

And yes, I would believe Jewish over Catholic sources.

The conquistadors were able to kill thousands of Aztecs and other native peoples in war and by slavery, confiscation of goods–food, blankets, forced labor–and by the diseases they imported, accidentally and deliberately, in the US anyway, by ‘donating’ infected blankets. Many natives scattered to the mountains and survived–many others were born and survived as mixed-breed, probably conceived through rape. As I reported earlier, an eloquent eye-witness to these events, and who tried to stop them, in vain, was Bartolome de Las Casas, a Dominican friar.
 
Well just call me good ole passive-aggressive. Boy you sure are full of labels. The whole exchange is a fallacy. A screen name says a lot about us, doesn’t it, “adrift?” 😉 A rose by any other name…
What you have not acknowledged was that I didn’t just say fallacy and link to what fallacy meant. I named a paticular fallacy and linked to that definition. You then didn’t bother to read it and lectured me that you knew the definition if fallacy.

All of this is a passive aggresive way of ignoring the main point. Your statement in the post I was referring to are untrue because they are fallacies.
 
Your statements are experiential. I respect that. I’ve never sought to imply that you’re crazy or wrong to feel the way you do about your faith. God bless you in your journey. I’m simply saying that there are people, the Anglican bishop John-David Schofield who is the shepherd of the Diocese of San Joaquin in the Central Valley of California, for example, who has told me with great emotion of a Eucharistic miracle in which He saw and heard the voice of Christ in an Anglican parish outside of London. He has also told me of charismatic experiences with evangelical Anglicans that led to speaking in tongues and all sorts of things that moved him deeply. He took a vow of celibacy to Christ when He met Him at the Tabernacle so his experience was a powerful one.

What makes his experiences less valid, powerful, moving, or convincing than yours, respectfully? He has chosen NOT to become Catholic and he has great conviction in his Anglican identity. I have spoken with Protestants who feel they have experienced Christ in their Eucharist, prayer life, and in their missionary activity, etc. Some of them are former Catholics, very well-educated ones.

Your statement of consumerism and material greed is a valid one, but it need not only lend itself to Catholicism. Many people have given up attachment to material goods and hedonistic capitalism without going Catholic. Many have done as you say.

And to answer your question, yes, I have spent a great deal of time with Eucharistic Adoration. I will keep my feelings on that private.

It’s hard to describe something with someone who doesn’t know what you’re talking about, yes, but that goes both ways. You can’t fathom an intelligent, good, well-informed person leaving Catholicism. I could chronicle many. They don’t understand you, you them. But we cannot assume they’re ninnies without a clue because they chose a different path from you. There are educated, well-catechized Catholics who have gone Protestant. It’s just a fact. God bless.
when u say that reasonable people leave the Catholic church… .that says nothing to me… cuz as reasonable as people can seem to be… they are… still human…

I have found something beyond the human realm… FAR beyond…

We humans need the supernatural to be saved… In our natural selves (state) we dont even hardly desire to be saved… Saved from what? I mean if we live in a nice house, have a wonderful spouse and great kids… nice car… Wht should we want mor than that? People get caught up in the things of this wolrd and begin to not care about the next world much… start believing such thhings as everyone goes to heaven eventually and etc… etc…

anyhow… i know the Real Presence is real cuz I’ve been there… spent long periods of time There… wish i was There now… but can’t be…

have you??

we really dont have anything to discuss until you have been where i have been…

when i am in the Real Presence, my life… my head, my heart… everything seems different from what it appears to be outside the Church…

anyhow, again… hard to discuss this kind of thing w/ someone who doesn’t know what I’m talking about…
 
And yes, I would believe Jewish over Catholic sources.
40.png
Answersplease:
BY that reasoning, then you should believe PALESTINIAN sources OVER ISRAELI sources.

Perhaps ALL Jews NEVER LIE CHEAT or STEAL,
AND
Perhaps NO Catholic can ever be trusted. (sarcasm)

Perhaps ANTI-CATHOLICISM is only a myth. (sarcasm)
 
Your statements are experiential. I respect that.


…his experience was a powerful one.

What makes his experiences less valid, powerful, moving, or convincing than yours, respectfully?
(Red color, underlining, and use of bold type added to highlight the original text.)

"Joseph looked into the hat in which he placed the stone, and received a revelation that some of the brethren should go to Toronto, Canada, and that they would sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon. Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery went to Toronto on this mission, but they failed entirely to sell the copyright, returning without any money.

Joseph…enquired of the Lord about it, and behold the following revelation came through the stone: "Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of men: and some revelations are of the devil."


  • David Witmer, AN ADDRESS TO ALL BELIEVERS IN CHRIST, 1887
 
And yes, I would believe Jewish over Catholic sources.
40.png
Answersplease:
By that reasoning, then you should believe PALESTINIAN sources OVER ISRAELI sources.

Perhaps ALL Jews NEVER LIE CHEAT or STEAL,
AND
Perhaps NO Catholic can ever be trusted. (sarcasm)

Perhaps ANTI-CATHOLICISM is only a myth. (sarcasm)
 
It depends on the source and the reasons behind the source.

I believe quite a few Palestinian sources. Much, not all, but much of their country has been appropriated illegally and in defiance of the UN AND their major supporter, the USA. They are struggling to survive. Not all support the intifada. Many Israelis support the Palestinian cause also, want them to have a legitimate country, and peace. Do I support Israel? Yes.

Catholics have a lot to defend in their history. They have a lot of reasons to try to defend it, in that they are defending their religion at the same time. If other religions had dominated European history for hundreds of years, they would have had a lot to defend, too. But the RCC was in the driver’s seat. If you believe that you are the one true church and everyone else is wrong or threatens you, you tend to make mistakes.

The Jews writing their history in Spain have nothing to defend. They were kicked out, not all went, they were persecuted, they left. There are a lot of eye-witnesses to what happened and where it led–to cryptoJews in New Mexico, for example. Only fleeing persecution would explain the presence of Spanish-speaking Catholic Jews in New Mexico–proven by DNA analysis, by the way.
 
Josie,

I read back to the original peoples of Mexico through the time of the Conquistador up to the Masonic Revolution through various sources, some Catholic others not. The Spanish were in great awe of the Aztecs and the great wonders of their civilization and the floating gardens were a sight to behold. In regards to the war and slaughter, the relations obviously became tense, and one Spanish captain was left in charge of the troops, and there was a slaughter of Aztecs.

On the other hand, people don’t know about the Aztec reign of terror over other Indian tribes. Some estimated 80,000 neighboring Indians were slaughtered in human sacrifice every year by the Aztecs, one slaughter took about 20,000 at one festival. I read about the Aztec priests, the custom of the warriors carrying flowers a certain way to show gentlemanliness, the plaza and daily work, and the temple of human sacrifice. The Spaniards were shocked and repulsed by this religion. They battled to replace the sacrifice altar with the statue of the Blessed Virgin. The Aztecs removed it and this was what brought on the war. It took two years. In the final stages the Aztecs were leading their own toddlers up the steps to be sacrificed so they could win the war.
In the end, when the Spaniards won with the help of the neighboring Indians, it was the natives who continued the fighting and the slaughter of Aztecs.

Afterwards, Bishop Zumarraga deplored the relations between the Spanish and the Indians, and finally prayed to heaven for help, asking for roses in December. Then later, Juan Diego was walking down a path, a Catholic convert who walked 13 miles a day and a sacristan at the chapel, and this woman appeared to him next to the temple of an Aztecan goddess of peace. He changed his route another day, and the woman appeared to him, and asked him to pick the roses next to her and take them to the bishop. When Juan arrived, he opened his cape, and the roses fell out along with the image of Mary…of Guadalupe…in the language of the pictograph.

What is incredible as well is that the stars embedded on the tilma revealed through science the placement of the stars in the sky for that particular day 400 years ago! And there were close up’s made of Mary’s eyes…and the mirror reflection of Juan and the bishop and an attendant were also captured. She wore this cross around her neck like the image of the one in the dream of Montezuma. Her hands were folded in prayer, so she was not a goddess. And she was standing in front of the sun…representing the sun and standing on the crescent moon – representing the moon god who demanded human sacrifice to allow the sun to return the following day. She is pregnant with Jesus because of the height of the sash around her mid section. And she has fleur dis lis on her gown, representing perfection in number 8…I have a book by a fellow how studied the entire image and all the inherent symbolism in every part…ST. Michael the Archangel stood beneath the crescent moon and held Mary up…and in the image of the crescent moon in close up are images of demons.

Through Mary of Guadalupe and the bishop’sprayers, peace came between the Spaniards and the Aztecs.

A pope was praying to Mary for help using the copy of the image of Guadalupe back in Rome as the Moslems were attempting to attack and overcome the Church. Through Mary of Guadalupe’s prayers, a great wind came over the battle and the Turks were blown back…there were also 12,000 Christian slaves being used in Moslem ships…and many thousands of both Christians and Moslems were killed in the Battle of Lepanto. It was the last major attack on the Christian West by the Moslems in the 1500’s.

Mary of Guadalupe was looking north in the tilma’s image…so she also has her concern for North America. When the tilma of Mary was shown to the Aztecan people, they immediately read the message of her pictograph and were converted. They shot arrows up into the air, but one came down and killed an Indian. His body was quickly transported to the tilma, and he was suddenly brought back to life and healed. The tilma is made of cactus fibers and they last at the most 20 years…this is on display in Mexico for over 400 years now.

Mary’s story of ‘Roses in December’. I have shared it with some dying people and just now the other day with a woman who does not believe in God, but is a benevolent person and pagan. She told me she was raped 5 times by her relatives, and again as an adult, and I gave her a medal of Mary. She said she likes Catholics and always thought it good how we include Mary a woman in the teachings of our church.

Through Bishop Zumarraga, a Spaniard, he allowed Aztec women and girls the right to an education hundreds of years before American women. During the time Spain ruled Mexico, 1521 to 1821, Spain raised the Mexican people and their country to equality with the Europeans in religion, education, and opportunity, producing a flourishing and prosperous Catholic civilization with colleges, universities, hospitals, orphanages and institutions for the poor just as the Catholic Church had done for Europeans. The great Masonic revolution committed wanton destruction from 1820 to 1928 with one interlude of peace in 1876 to 1911.

The Catholic priests were loved by the Mexican people as well. The Catholic priests developed grammar books for the Aztecs for their own native language, the first institution for the Indians was Santa Cruz College in Tlaltelolco. The college turned out Indian Aztecan scholars as finished in Spanish. Bishop Zumarraga was the founder opening the school in 1534, 13 years after the taking of Mexico City. In 1553, there were 3…there is alot to learn about Catholic Mexico.
 
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