Inquisition Questions

[csmatyi]

*“Many millions of Protestants”?

Um, Matthew, the entire population of the whole of Europe had around 75 million people in 1300, and only reached 150 million by 1800. What was the Catholic Church doing, importing people from other planets to kill? *

Wolseley, I said “many millions of people”. The exact number we do not know. It could be 3 million, 17 million, or 50 million. Still, millions is extreme enough. 6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust. We are talking about 600 years, meaning 24 generations, if 1 generation is taken as 25 years. Millions of people is credible enough.

*I find it equally unbelievable, because you seem to be swallowing the bigoted anti-Catholic hogwash that people like Ian Paisley are vomiting out, which has absolutely no basis in reality.
*

I did not read this from Paisley. This figure I got from Richard P. Bennett. who cites many historians who arrived at this figure:

Dowling, Lea, Vancandard, Maycock, Coulton, and Turberville.

What, precisely, is your purpose in posting here, Matthew? To inform the Catholics how horrible the mean ole Catholic Church is? If so, you’d better get some better sources to back you up. The ones you’ve quoted so far (and seeing what you’ve used for sources in English, I can only assume that the ones you’re using in Hungarian are equally off-base) are so full of holes that you’re never going to convince anybody who knows anything at all about the subject that you’re right and they’re wrong.

Wolseley, if you read the title of the topic, we are discussing the inquisition. I do not understand why I should not be allowed to post messages here.

I can only assume that the ones you’re using in Hungarian are equally off-base

You know Hungarian? You have read these sources? Do tell.
Please keep to the topic and do not go into personal attacks against me.

 

[csmatyi]

Please have better information than, “As far as I know”.

You insult us and you insult the Jesuits with this information. And if you had “inside experience”, you would have led off with it rather than relate false stories as the “Gotcha” headline.

Try reading “The secret history of the Jesuits” by Edmond Paris, himself a former Catholic.

 

[csmatyi]

You are conflating all religious persecution with the Inquisition. Also, since Mary was married to the king of Spain, there was a Spanish influence on the policies during her reign–but as far as I know the formal Inquisition was not introduced. Plenty of government executed people without benefit of the Inquisition.

But was the Inquisition involved? This is narrowly about the Inquisition, not about religious persecution in general. (And yes, Catholics need to be reminded that persecution went way beyond the Inquisition.)

Do you have any documentation for this claim in a Germanic or Romance language? Alas, the only Hungarian words I know are koszonom, Isten, szivesen, and (oddly) villamos. I found a brief description of Peter Pazmany here, though it may of course be whitewashed. This site claims that Pazmany used only nonviolent methods. I read all about the evil Jesuits in Eastern Europe long ago in J. A. Wylie’s History of Protestantism. But I have since learned that Wylie is not to be relied on, and the impression I have gotten from my limited reading on the subject as a scholar of the Reformation is that the Jesuits primarily used education and persuasion (and, yes, political intrigue) to win Protestants back, rather than violence. (Actually I remember Wylie primarily talking about these methods too, but he made them sound very sinister.)

And why do you call Pazmany treacherous? Because he converted from Protestantism to Catholicism?

These things I have no difficulty believing. Even in the tolerant Netherlands Catholic and dissenting Protestant churches were not allowed to be on main streets or advertise their presence.

I had not heard that this happened in Hungary, but it doesn’t surprise me–the Hapsburgs were not gentle, and the French government was doing the same thing at about the same time.

Again, are you using “Inquisition” broadly to mean any religious persecution? And while the Hussites were persecuted at various points, I would not say that they were “exterminated” as if they were just rounded up and massacred. It’s also hard to talk about the Hussites as a whole, because the Utraquists, the revolutionary Taborites, and the nonviolent Unity of the Brethren were quite different from each other and naturally had very different relationships to the state.

You have not increased your credibility around here by citing the “Jesuit Oath” which is known to be a forgery (it is recorded in the archives of Congress because some Congressman quoted it at some point–the idea that this confers credibility on it is utterly absurd).

Edwin

Contarini, quite right. I may be a bit offtopic in writing about things which formally do not fall into the exact category of the inquisition, but I do not see why it is baseless to write about other similar events like the counter reformation in Hungary. I find it an insult against those who were martyred by the RCC in Hungary in the 17th century, whose martyrdoms denied by people living thousands of kilometers away who simply don’t want to have to hear of it…

 

[NotWorthy]

Try reading “The secret history of the Jesuits” by Edmond Paris, himself a former Catholic.

As in the case of Father Rivera, I’ve often found that “Former Catholic make better liars”.

I don’t mean that people that leave the Church are liars, but when people like Chick and others bring out books by “ex-catholic priests, or Jesuit priests, or ex-Mother Teresa nuns”, they most often are found spreading more lies than the Gospel. I’ll take a look at the good Edmond Paris’ work, though.

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[NotWorthy]

Here’s what I’ve found so far on the good Mr. Paris’ book:

By Edgar Cifre Sarda "Catolico Latino" (Guatemala, Central America) - See all my reviews
ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/x-locale/communities/reputation/c7y_badge_rn_1.V47060296.gif If you’re looking forward to being entertained by reading a good novel, by all means buy this book. If on the other hand; you’re looking for facts… don’t waste your money (and time) on this work of fiction.

And here’s another. BTW, this guy is probably the same Daniel Marsh that spends time on these forums, but is not a Catholic

Did you know the Jesuits are to blame for everything, from the KKK to the Nazis to the Communists to the Islamofascists to the Illuminati? It’s all part of their evil plot to take over Jerusalem, since they found out that St. Peter wasn’t REALLY buried in Italy. And Jack Chick has proof! It’s well documented! After all, it was published in another book published by Jack Chick, so it HAS to be true!

This is one of those books.

Now, I’m a Northerner from a big city, so I can’t be too harsh on the market for books like this. After all, I can strike up a conversation with a schizophrenic on a subway platform every few weeks. I’ve had fascinating conversations with people who believed that WWII was a counter-Revolution against the American War for Independence (apparently, Germany, Japan and Russia were three of the original 13 colonies, along with Rwanda, South Africa and Brazil.) Or how the war in Iraq is really part of a ploy to move US troops closer to the brain-emittting stations on Mt. Ararat. (Two actual conversations.)

But people in small towns in the deep South just don’t get to meet genuine schizos every day, so they have to buy Jack Chick’s publications to keep up to date on the latest Grand Conspiracies.

Oops… My Vatican Decoder Ring tells me I’ve revealed too much information. Now I’m going to have to trick **** Cheney into shooting a lawyer…

C’mon, csmatyi, you have better information than this. You’ve got inside experience!

 

[NotWorthy]

Oh wait!!! This Edmund Paris book is published by “Jack Chick Productions”???



Stop it, Matthew, my sides hurt!!!

Seriously, thanks for the good laugh and good day, Matthew.

BTW, I checked with the Vatican today. They are going to make sure that the weather is clear for me in Texas today. The meteorologist (which is Latin for “Jesuit implant”) assures me that they’ll make sure it doesn’t rain on me today. Keep this on the down-low, OK?

 

[mercygate]

Well, as far as I know groups like Opus Dei and the knights of Columbus still have this oath. This oath can be found all over the internet. It’s a good thing to know so we can guard against the Jesuits.

I get my information from several different sources, also, I am a former Catholic, so I have inside experience.

Did you check the link I posted earlier up-thread?

Anybody can file ANYTHING with the Library of Congress.

The reference to the oath in the Congressional record quoted the oath – noting that it was an outright forgery – and denouncing its use to discredit a Catholic candidate in a political campaign. The person denouncing the use of this forgery as a political tactic was the person who opposed the Catholic in the election.

Are you insinuating that your “inside experience” included things like this ridiculous oath? At what age did you leave?

 

[mercygate]

Well, I don’t understand then. You’re saying that the library of Congress is absolutely good for nothing, then?

The oath was filed in 1883, did present day rules apply to filing documents way back in 1883?

T’he Jesuit Oath of Induction is also recorded in the Congressional Record of the U.S.A. (House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913, pp. 3215-3216)

source:members.aol.com/gregscv/jesuit.htm

In a way, I AM saying the Library of Congress is “good for nothing” because anybody can file anything: no questions asked. Just pay your $30.

If you persist in holding that this “oath” is authentic, then you are simply disingenuous.

If you’re going to hate the Church, at least hate her for what she IS and not for some bilious and prurient fantasy of what you would like to think she is.

 

[Wolseley]

Wolseley, I said “many millions of people”. The exact number we do not know. It could be 3 million, 17 million, or 50 million. Still, millions is extreme enough. 6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust.

Yes, I know the various figures presented by Protestant Fundamentalists, which run from Jimmy Swaggart’s 20 million all the way up to 95 million by some others. Again, pretty hard to swallow when one considers that the entire population of Europe didn’t even reach 75 million until 1300. Evidently the Catholic Church completely emptied Europe of all human life, and as I said, imported people from other planets in order to kill them.

Take some of these figures, and you get a depopulation disaster that dwarfs the bubonic plague, and for some odd reason it goes entirely unnoticed by virtually all historians, secular and religious alike. Why is that, do you suppose?

We are talking about 600 years, meaning 24 generations, if 1 generation is taken as 25 years. Millions of people is credible enough.

My dear fellow, I can quote you sources which indicate that all Catholic Inquisitions combined in that time period only executed around 4,000 people. 4,000 too many, I grant you, but certainly a far cry from “millions”.

I did not read this from Paisley. This figure I got from Richard P. Bennett. who cites many historians who arrived at this figure:

Dowling, Lea, Vancandard, Maycock, Coulton, and Turberville.

Ever hear of the Black Legend?

I suggest you research it carefully.

Wolseley, if you read the title of the topic, we are discussing the inquisition. I do not understand why I should not be allowed to post messages here.

Nobody said you couldn’t post here, Matthew. But don’t get upset when nobody believes the balderdash you’re posting. We’ve all heard this stuff before, many times, and it has been refuted over and over again. I have been posting on Internet chat boards for ten years or better, and I have probably heard this stuff hundreds of times, posted by Protestants who join Catholic boards and then seem puzzled when the Catholics on those boards don’t react in shock and say, “Oh, my goodness, I had no idea that the Catholic Church was so horrible! I must leave it immediately! Can you recommend a good Protestant church for me run right out and join right away?”

In the real world, it doesn’t work that way.

You know Hungarian? You have read these sources? Do tell. Please keep to the topic and do not go into personal attacks against me.

I say that your sources are likely skewed and inaccurate, and that’s a personal attack? Not even close.

also, I am a former Catholic, so I have inside experience.

So we’re supposed to swallow what you have to offer, because you’re a former Catholic and that automatically means the information you’re peddling is supposed to be accurate?

If I had a brain tumor, do you think I’d put any trust in a guy who said, “I’m a former brain surgeon, so I have inside experience on how to operate on your problem”?

 

[Contarini]

Well, as far as I know groups like Opus Dei and the knights of Columbus still have this oath.

You should inform yourself better and be less credulous–the fact that certain kinds of propaganda confirm your prejudices does not justify you in believing them.

This oath can be found all over the internet.

And we all know that anything found all over the Internet must be true!

It’s a good thing to know so we can guard against the Jesuits.

Right–if I see John O’Malley at Sixteenth Century Studies Conference next month I’ll be sure and watch for that knife so he doesn’t try to rip my guts out! What would I do without you, csmatyi!

I get my information from several different sources,

That is only a point in your favor if the sources are good ones!

also, I am a former Catholic, so I have inside experience.

Are you saying that you have taken this oath or seen it administered? If not, then what good is your “inside experience” in this instance?

Edwin

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, as far as I know groups like Opus Dei and the knights of Columbus still have this oath. This oath can be found all over the internet. It’s a good thing to know so we can guard against the Jesuits.

I get my information from several different sources, also, I am a former Catholic, so I have inside experience.

I almost overlooked this “knights of Columbus” oath.

I am a knight, and no where do we come close to any oaths such as this.

 

[Wolseley]

I almost overlooked this “knights of Columbus” oath.

I am a knight, and no where do we come close to any oaths such as this.

Now there you go again, letting truth stand in the way of a good story!

 

[NotWorthy]

Now there you go again, letting truth stand in the way of a good story!

Well, actually, we’re too busy slaying the goat to really concentrate on what we’re saying during the oath-swearing.

But I didn’t want to admit that. This PM will be kept private, won’t it?

 

[Contarini]

Wolseley, I said “many millions of people”. The exact number we do not know. It could be 3 million, 17 million, or 50 million. Still, millions is extreme enough. 6 million Jews were killed in the holocaust. We are talking about 600 years, meaning 24 generations, if 1 generation is taken as 25 years. Millions of people is credible enough.

No, it’s not. You have no credible historians to support this claim, which one finds only among fundamentalist propagandists (oh, and some of the sillier Wiccans will claim it as well, though speaking of the burning of “witches”).
I did not read this from Paisley. This figure I got from Richard P. Bennett. *

Not a credible source either. What is to stop you from reading a real historian?

who cites many historians who arrived at this figure:

Dowling, Lea, Vancandard, Maycock, Coulton, and Turberville.

You mean Dowling’s *History of Romanism from the Earliest Corruptions of Christianity? *(1845) Hardly a source I would trust. Leav is biased but honest and still valuable if you don’t take him too uncritically. Coulton was a disciple of Lea, while Vacandard was a Catholic historian himself. Maycock and Turberville wrote in the early 20th century, but I don’t know much about them.

None of these are exactly up-to-date sources. Why can’t Bennett look at contemporary historians such as Peters (for the medieval Inquisition) or Kamen (for the Spanish)?

But fine–if they all supported figures of millions, what exactly where these figures and where in the works of each of them could I find them?

Bennett is simply a propagandist. You dig deeper holes for your credibility with each “authority” you cite.

Edwin

 

[bobzills]

It looks like the Pope has changed the Catholic teaching on torture. cathnews.com/news/709/36.php

The teaching today is that no form of torture can be condoned, which is not what it was according to the Papal Bull Ad exstirpanda which authorised the use of torture to elicit confessions. It was issued on May 15, 1252, by Pope Innocent IV, and was confirmed by Pope Alexander IV on November 30, 1259, and by Pope Clement IV on November 3, 1265.

 

[Protestant101]

It looks like the Pope has changed the Catholic teaching on torture. cathnews.com/news/709/36.php

The teaching today is that no form of torture can be condoned, which is not what it was according to the Papal Bull Ad exstirpanda which authorised the use of torture to elicit confessions. It was issued on May 15, 1252, by Pope Innocent IV, and was confirmed by Pope Alexander IV on November 30, 1259, and by Pope Clement IV on November 3, 1265.

So the Catholic Church does admit that it did at one time condone torture? I would like to see more info on this; what reasons did they give for once approving of torture? I didn’t realize that Catholic teachings could change, such as you say this one has. I think it is a good step in the right direction if the Pope did in fact change this teaching.

 

[mercygate]

So the Catholic Church does admit that it did at one time condone torture? I would like to see more info on this; what reasons did they give for once approving of torture? I didn’t realize that Catholic teachings could change, such as you say this one has. I think it is a good step in the right direction if the Pope did in fact change this teaching.

Torture in the Inquisition was never allowed to disfigure. Things like the red-hot tongs and the iron maiden – lurid lore of the Black Legend – were pure fiction. And keep in mind that this was milder than the universal norm of the time.

 

[bobzills]

So the Catholic Church does admit that it did at one time condone torture? I would like to see more info on this; what reasons did they give for once approving of torture? I didn’t realize that Catholic teachings could change, such as you say this one has. I think it is a good step in the right direction if the Pope did in fact change this teaching.

Please see the reference:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_exstirpanda
Also the New Catholic Encyclopedia has an article on torture.

 

[Protestant101]

Torture in the Inquisition was never allowed to disfigure. Things like the red-hot tongs and the iron maiden – lurid lore of the Black Legend – were pure fiction. And keep in mind that this was milder than the universal norm of the time.

I am not trying to be difficult here; but I am already disfigured horribly; from severe burns; this wonderful assurance would not have made me feel any better as I was being dragged off to the torture room.But I am not into dwelling on it all either. I am just trying to establish the facts. I am a history buff; if you will and I love to explore doctrinal development within a historical context for a given denomination. What I am trying to find is official Catholic writings of the time that explicitly state that they did condone torture for whatever reasons; and then, similar sources to properly depict the change in this teaching.

 

[Zooey]

*I appreciate the site. But my statement still stands that we cannot assume everything we were taught is correct. *

I do not find this to be at all a strong argument. If you say so! In this way we cannot be sure about anything that has happened in the past.

As far as this is concerned I could say that the RCC has put a severe spin on how they portray the Inquisition. Roman Catholic historians Kung… You might know Richard Peter Bennett who was a former Catholic priest for 22 years…

**[sign1]**Piffle! Pshaw!! Pfui!!!****[/sign1]
You don’t, I suppose, have any sources who **aren’t **either Professional Anti-Catholics and/or Wide-Eyed Liberal Dissenters?? (Or, I suppose, both. Though the thoughthttp://bestsmileys.com/silly/18.gif boggles the mind.

You might want to take a look at for example the secret oaths
of the Jesuits (this has been registered in the library of Congress):

ianpaisley.org/article.asp?ArtKey=jesuit

I find this unbeleivable, and if only even a small part of this is true, then we must all start seriously considering where we are and what Rome is up to.

Regards, Matthew C

Ian Paisley??
[Ahem!! Cough, cough!!]
From the above referenced article.

Dr. Alberto Rivera, who escaped from the Jesuit Order in 1967, confirms that the induction ceremony and the text of the Jesuit Oath which he took were identical to what we have cited below.

I like the “Dr”…But the man was **not **a Jesuit, he was not a doctor. I’m not certain that he was ever Catholic.
Indeed, there is some question as to whether he was even Alberto Rivera.
Professional con-man. Crook. Liar. Cheat. Fraud. All of these. But Jesuit? Again, I say: [sign1]Piffle! Pshaw! Pfui!![/sign1]

Oh, and by the bye: Anybody can put anything in the Library of Congress. It doesn’t mean a blessed thing, laddie. I could send off a signed copy of “The Memoirs of a Spoiled Cat” by Darling Bela, and get it put in the Library of Congress.
All that proves, is that somebody has put the statement into print. It doesnae make it true, yean. It only proves that someone said it on paper.