Inquisition Questions

[mercygate]

I just started to read this thread forgive me for bringing up this old post but I think my comment is relavant.

There is no original source documentation for the beliefs of the Cathars. What we seem to know about them we have learned from their enemies. Imagine if you will what would have been told of the US and the UK if Germany had won WWll?
I have reason to believe that these comments are untrue of the Cathars.

Responsible scholars note that our information is from “unfriendly” sources and temper their observations accordingly. Check out Ronald Knox’ excellent volume, *Quietism. *Although Catholic, Knox provides a clear-eyed assessment of the Cathar movement, free of blindly defensive posturing.

 

[mercygate]

But can anyone imagine the logistics and resources needed to pull this off and keep it out of the history books? I can’t.

It was NotWorthy who asked about the assmembly line – you must have typed my name in by mistake.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Supporting Hisalone,

Cassels writes in his book (Christ and Antichrist) from 1846 that it was said by French nobles that the populace was brought up by the Cathars, and that when the papal legate arrived at the scene to raize Cathar cities to the ground, such as Beziers, they asked how to tell the difference between a Cathar and a Catholic, in order to know who to kill. The reply: “kill them all, the Lord will know His own [that is, the Catholics]”.

His book was published in 1846 and titled: “Christ and Antichrist or Jesus of Nazareth
proved to be the Messiah and the Papacy proved to be the Antichrist predicted in the Holy
Scriptures.” Samuel J. Cassels was a Presbyterian Minister not a historian. Do you have anything from actual credible historical sources?

 

[Wildgraywolf]

It was NotWorthy who asked about the assmembly line – you must have typed my name in by mistake.

lol, sorry and thank you for the correction…

 

[Wildgraywolf]

csmatyi, I randomly looked up one of the sources you cited:

Catholic historian Vergerius

The quotes below are taken from: Christian Classics Ethereal Library
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc8.iv.iv.ix.html

He wasn’t a Catholic historian as you claim…

Vergerio was at first a prominent lawyer at Venice. After the death of his wife (Diana Contarini), he entered the service of the Church, and soon rose by his talents and attainments to influential positions.

He was made papal secretary and domestic chaplain, 1532.

In the same article he’s also quoted as saying about Luther:

He had a personal interview with Luther in Wittenberg (Nov. 7), and took offence at his bad Latin, blunt speech, and plebeian manner. He could not decide, he said in his official report to the papal secretary (Nov. 12), whether this German “beast” was possessed by an evil demon or not, but he certainly was the embodiment of arrogance, malice, and unwisdom

and later on:

He afterwards spoke of Luther as “a man of sacred memory,” and “a great instrument of God,” and lauded him in verses which he composed on a visit to Eisleben in 1559.

Not only is he not a historian; he’s also not credible.

He ranks among the secondary Reformers, and is an interesting but somewhat ambiguous and unsatisfactory character, with a changeful career.

Hmm…

Please note I don’t want to jab at you Catholics, but this is a real concern.

Are you certain? Your sources and “facts” don’t seem to indicate that. I may be mistaken, but it seems as though you start with a conclusion and attempt to build “facts” around it as support regardless of the integrity or factualness of your sources.

 

[mercygate]

Mercygate, notworthy, wildgraywolf, dosdog,

You all miss the point as to the number of victims of the inquisition. Btw if it was only 3000, that would be a very big mistake (reference please btw, you’re just asserting things willy nilly into thin air). This would mean only 5 victims a year during 600 years. In Europe this would mean that only one single heretic would pop his head up in a single European country once every 4-5 years. Why in the whole wide world would the Inquisition then have to become institutionalized (an instituition which btw exits to this very day).

Sigh. Nobody thinks killing anybody is a good thing. Catholics have their share of martyrs in these turbulent times as well, you know. There’s plenty of blame to go around.

Any review of the inquisitions requires discernment of the historical context and of evidence. But to allege hundreds of millions of executions is irresponsible. The documents of the Spanish Inquisition are now public and available for scholarly access.

The Inquisition is “institutionalized” for the protection of the faith. The existence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in no way translates into wanton slaughter of the innocent.

It is a known fact that 62 million people were killed in the space of 8 years (world war 2). . . .

I don’t suppose you would agree that deaths during mechanized warfare using massive air and firepower on a global scale, represent an entirely different phenomenon from the Inquisitions?

Another source which shows it is quite feasible: cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/estimates.doc

I am bookmarking this reference! It is a treasury of all the most rabid-anti-Catholic propaganda on the inquisitions I have ever seen in one place. What a collection!

I am taking out a couple of paragraphs because they make this response exceed the word limit.

Argument 2d. ’ Experience shows that terror is not effective.’ I reply, EXPERIENCE PROVES THE CONTRARY—FOR THE DONATISTS, MANICHEANS, AND ALBIGENSES WERE ROUTED, AND ANNIHILATED BY ARMS.

• Robert Bellarmine (Catholic), Disputationes de Controversiis, Tom. ii, Lib. III, cap. XXII, “Objections Answered,” 1682 edition.

I could not find this in any collection of Bellarmine’s writings. The only references to it are in anti-Catholic propaganda.

Cardinal Hosius, a member of the Council of Trent, A. D. 1560, testified that:"…then the opinion and persuasion of no sect can be truer and surer than that of the Anabaptists since there have been none for these twelve hundred years past, that have been more generally punished … than these people" (Hosius, Letters Apud Opera, 112-113.

This widely circulated statement attributed to Cardinal Hosius does not exist in any of his works. Here is a report on the citation:

The citation by various Baptist websites of two completely different purported statements by Cardial Hosuis, both given the same page reference, adds to the doubt about the genuineness of either. (The second purported statement is quoted in Note 1 below). The said statements are purported to be found on pages 112, 113 of “Apud Opera”. However, only one statement can be found crossing over from page 112 to 113. How can you get two different statements, both starting on page 112 and both ending on page 113? (The only possibility would be if one statement were embedded in the other, but that is clearly not the case here.) freerepublic.com/focus/religion/656264/posts

. .

Please note I don’t want to jab at you Catholics, but this is a real concern.

Sure it’s a concern. It should be. But how about reviewing at something other than pointedly anti-Catholic propaganda?

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, buster,

Paris’s book is also being sold by Amazon:

amazon.com/Secret-History-Jesuits-Edmund-Paris/dp/0937958107

Wasn’t the book first printed in French? Because Paris is French, so they translated it from that language. So it wasn’t Chick who first published it. But, actually, what really big difference does it make as to who published the book and when? If Chick wants to publish it then let him do so…

Btw have you even read the book? I doubt it. Was it you who cited a review about it in this forum? It’s not good enough to just simply cite what somebody else wrote about it, you’ll have to read it for yourself. And also, it’s full of footnotes and other references. Paris did a good job of exposing the Jesuits…

Paris was Catholic, not just in name. Just because you leave the church doesn’t mean your knowledge of that church and all your experiences just go down the drain, you know…

Sorry.

Buster? Ok…

I haven’t read it, and I have no reason to read it, that’s why I posted the link from a customer review in Amazon. And not just “a customer”, but one I’ve dealt with on these forums for 3 years and have come to trust his honest opinion, if not his beliefs. That’s the reason I posted Daniel’s review.

Now, is this guy a priest like Fr. Rivera, also of the Jack Chick persuasion? If that’s the case, then

If you look at what this guy says about the Jesuits, then it doesn’t take long to realize the guy’s a farce and nothing more than that. And I feel sorrow for anyone who buys his load of cr*p!

 

[mercygate]

Buster? Ok…

I haven’t read it, and I have no reason to read it, that’s why I posted the link from a customer review in Amazon. And not just “a customer”, but one I’ve dealt with on these forums for 3 years and have come to trust his honest opinion, if not his beliefs. That’s the reason I posted Daniel’s review.

Now, is this guy a priest like Fr. Rivera, also of the Jack Chick persuasion? If that’s the case, then

If you look at what this guy says about the Jesuits, then it doesn’t take long to realize the guy’s a farce and nothing more than that. And I feel sorrow for anyone who buys his load of cr*p!

Seriously! Charles Chiniquy??? can’t believe anybody still thinks this is for real. But did you check the “also bought” books posted. Makes the blood run cold. Also note that the Chiniquy book is “out of stock.”

 

[csmatyi]

His book was published in 1846 and titled: “Christ and Antichrist or Jesus of Nazareth
proved to be the Messiah and the Papacy proved to be the Antichrist predicted in the Holy
Scriptures.” Samuel J. Cassels was a Presbyterian Minister not a historian. Do you have anything from actual credible historical sources?

Scripture. If you read it, he bases many of his arguments on the Bible. But why does being a minister exclude you frommaking good historical arguments? You are questioning his credentials, not his arguments.

 

[csmatyi]

csmatyi, I randomly looked up one of the sources you cited:The quotes below are taken from: Christian Classics Ethereal Library
ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc8.iv.iv.ix.html

He wasn’t a Catholic historian as you claim…

In the same article he’s also quoted as saying about Luther:

and later on:

Not only is he not a historian; he’s also not credible.

Hmm…

Are you certain? Your sources and “facts” don’t seem to indicate that. I may be mistaken, but it seems as though you start with a conclusion and attempt to build “facts” around it as support regardless of the integrity or factualness of your sources.

This is only one of ten quotations I made…

 

[csmatyi]

Sigh. Nobody thinks killing anybody is a good thing. Catholics have their share of martyrs in these turbulent times as well, you know. There’s plenty of blame to go around.

Any review of the inquisitions requires discernment of the historical context and of evidence. But to allege hundreds of millions of executions is irresponsible. The documents of the Spanish Inquisition are now public and available for scholarly access.

The Inquisition is “institutionalized” for the protection of the faith. The existence of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in no way translates into wanton slaughter of the innocent.
I don’t suppose you would agree that deaths during mechanized warfare using massive air and firepower on a global scale, represent an entirely different phenomenon from the Inquisitions?

I am bookmarking this reference! It is a treasury of all the most rabid-anti-Catholic propaganda on the inquisitions I have ever seen in one place. What a collection!

I am taking out a couple of paragraphs because they make this response exceed the word limit.
I could not find this in any collection of Bellarmine’s writings. The only references to it are in anti-Catholic propaganda.
This widely circulated statement attributed to Cardinal Hosius does not exist in any of his works. Here is a report on the citation:

The citation by various Baptist websites of two completely different purported statements by Cardial Hosuis, both given the same page reference, adds to the doubt about the genuineness of either. (The second purported statement is quoted in Note 1 below). The said statements are purported to be found on pages 112, 113 of “Apud Opera”. However, only one statement can be found crossing over from page 112 to 113. How can you get two different statements, both starting on page 112 and both ending on page 113? (The only possibility would be if one statement were embedded in the other, but that is clearly not the case here.) freerepublic.com/focus/religion/656264/posts

. .

Sure it’s a concern. It should be. But how about reviewing at something other than pointedly anti-Catholic propaganda?

1. mercygate, I also mentioned that 200 million bison were slaughtered in the space of 200 yeras, when mechanized warfare was not an option. Still, they accomplished it. But anyway, even though the population of Europe was less than it was today, mechanized warfare this way or that, the rate at which humans died during ww2 was a lot greater than during the middle ages (when they had hundreds of years to accomplish all the killing)…
2. We’ll have to read the Spanish inquisition documents…
3. Keep on looking for the quotation by Bellarmine…
4. Please get the 1st version of the quote from Hosius…

 

[csmatyi]

Buster? Ok…

I haven’t read it, and I have no reason to read it, that’s why I posted the link from a customer review in Amazon. And not just “a customer”, but one I’ve dealt with on these forums for 3 years and have come to trust his honest opinion, if not his beliefs. That’s the reason I posted Daniel’s review.

Now, is this guy a priest like Fr. Rivera, also of the Jack Chick persuasion? If that’s the case, then

If you look at what this guy says about the Jesuits, then it doesn’t take long to realize the guy’s a farce and nothing more than that. And I feel sorrow for anyone who buys his load of cr*p!

NotWorthy,

Please deal with the actual things what Paris wrote in his book, and not opinions about his work.

btw. the Bible says let there not be any swearing amongst you.

Cheers.

 

[csmatyi]

NotWorthy,

Please deal with the actual things what Paris wrote in his book, and not opinions about his work.

btw. the Bible says let there not be any swearing amongst you.

Cheers.

Notworthy,

Okay, I take back the buster thing… I’ll cool it as long as you do.

 

[NotWorthy]

NotWorthy,

Please deal with the actual things what Paris wrote in his book, and not opinions about his work.

btw. the Bible says let there not be any swearing amongst you.

Cheers.

That would require me to read the book. Now, reading the commentaries on Amazon and seeing the bias against Catholics by those who love this book, it’s not hard to figure out what the author is saying.

In other words, I wouldn’t spend a penny to help this man spread lies about the Catholic Church or the Jesuits. If you knew any Jesuits even remotely well, you would be ashamed that you think of their order in this way. Period.

 

[csmatyi]

That would require me to read the book. Now, reading the commentaries on Amazon and seeing the bias against Catholics by those who love this book, it’s not hard to figure out what the author is saying.

In other words, I wouldn’t spend a penny to help this man spread lies about the Catholic Church or the Jesuits. If you knew any Jesuits even remotely well, you would be ashamed that you think of their order in this way. Period.

Well, yes, but if you don’t read the book itself, then how can you talk about in a truly objective way? I read the book, i think it is objective. But then do you think that I am biased agsinst the Catholic church? Please note, I am a former Catholic.

About the Jesuits: I personally do not know any Jesuits, although I have exchanged emails with a certain Ulrik Toth who lives in Budapest.

Now, I am a member of one of the 2 main Protestant creationist groups operating here in Hungary, and I have read comments from a certain Guy Consolmagno, head of the Vatican observatory. He made certain very disparaging remarks in the newspaper the Scotsman in 2006 about 6 day literal Biblical creationism:

wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=50088

quotes:

Vatican astronomer Guy Consolmagno says believing God created the universe in six days is a form of “pagan superstition.”
Consolmagno told the Scotsman the idea that religion and science are competing principles is a “destructive myth.”

I have read another book by a certain Imre Magyar and Jozsef Kokai in Hungarian titled “Has the flood washed away the theory of evolution”? In it they make very disparaging, unkind remarks about Biblical creationist beleifs, calling it stupidity, for example.

What I simply cannot get is how if you read the Charta Oecumenica, Catholics are very open to other religions, such as Buddhism even, and even opening doors to dialog with atheists. But yet, at the same time, I simply cannot fathom why they are so hostile to the creationist/ID movement… since these groups are working hard at finding good arguments which would prove the existance of a creator God, a beleif that Catholicism clings to so dearly.

Now, I asked all about this from my Jesuit friend, brother Ulrik, but after reminding him three times via email and his not responding, I simply decided that it’s not worth discussing this with the Jesuits, therefore I hold them to be simply a bigotted group of Catholics who rabidly attack Protestants in such a cheery well-meaning ecumenical manner.

(btw can you answer me this: if the wafer really does transubstantiate into the body of Christ in the Mass, then this means that ever since Catholicism has come into existance, billions upon billions even if not trillions of wafers have transsubstantiated into the body of Christ - does this then mean that Catholicism is a polytheistic religion?)

Regards, csmatyi

 

[NotWorthy]

Well, yes, but if you don’t read the book itself, then how can you talk about in a truly objective way? I read the book, i think it is objective. But then do you think that I am biased agsinst the Catholic church? Please note, I am a former Catholic.

If I read the book, I would be contributing money to a man that has disparaged a wonderful group of religious people. That is offensive to me.

So you are ex-catholic? That’s surprising. The biggest anti-smokers are often ex-smokers. The biggest anti-drinkers are often ex-drinkers. The biggest anti-catholics are often ex-catholics - especially because, if they were truly Catholic, they know what leaving the Catholic Church means, in regards to their Salvation. If I were you, I’d spend my time trying to justify my decision as well.

About the Jesuits: I personally do not know any Jesuits, although I have exchanged emails with a certain Ulrik Toth who lives in Budapest.

Now, I am a member of one of the 2 main Protestant creationist groups operating here in Hungary, and I have read comments from a certain Guy Consolmagno, head of the Vatican observatory. He made certain very disparaging remarks in the newspaper the Scotsman in 2006 about 6 day literal Biblical creationism:

snip

Why don’t you look at what the Catholic Church itself teaches, not one individual. It’s easy, the Catechism in online. The Church teaches that one can believe in the 6 day Creation account, or one can believe that the earth was created over billions of years. Either way it doesn’t matter. What one has to believe is that God was the author of all Creation. Period.

I have read another book by a certain Imre Magyar and Jozsef Kokai in Hungarian titled “Has the flood washed away the theory of evolution”? In it they make very disparaging, unkind remarks about Biblical creationist beleifs, calling it stupidity, for example.

If you want to read what the Church teaches, read the Catechism.

What I simply cannot get is how if you read the Charta Oecumenica, Catholics are very open to other religions, such as Buddhism even, and even opening doors to dialog with atheists. But yet, at the same time, I simply cannot fathom why they are so hostile to the creationist/ID movement… since these groups are working hard at finding good arguments which would prove the existance of a creator God, a beleif that Catholicism clings to so dearly.

The Catholic Church is open to creationist. If you want to read what the Church teaches, read the Catechism.

Now, I asked all about this from my Jesuit friend, brother Ulrik, but after reminding him three times via email and his not responding, I simply decided that it’s not worth discussing this with the Jesuits, therefore I hold them to be simply a bigotted group of Catholics who rabidly attack Protestants in such a cheery well-meaning ecumenical manner.

You judge all Jesuits by the lack of response of one? Wow!!! Are you so judgmental of all people?

(btw can you answer me this: if the wafer really does transubstantiate into the body of Christ in the Mass, then this means that ever since Catholicism has come into existance, billions upon billions even if not trillions of wafers have transsubstantiated into the body of Christ - does this then mean that Catholicism is a polytheistic religion?)

That does not make sense. We are not gods when we become part of the Body of Christ. Don’t you believe that you are part of the Body of Christ when you were baptized? Don’t you believe that those who have died and gone to heaven are part of the Body of Christ? Have you read ANY of Paul’s writings? John’s?

"Remain (or Abide) in me, as I remain (or abide) in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain (or abide) in me.

Regards, csmatyi

Regards, John

 

[mercygate]

1. mercygate, I also mentioned that 200 million bison were slaughtered in the space of 200 yeras, when mechanized warfare was not an option. Still, they accomplished it. But anyway, even though the population of Europe was less than it was today, mechanized warfare this way or that, the rate at which humans died during ww2 was a lot greater than during the middle ages (when they had hundreds of years to accomplish all the killing)…

No. Killing bison with guns is not the same thing as seeking out, trying and executing “millions” of human beings, mostly in periods before the advent of gunpowder.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

Scripture. If you read it, he bases many of his arguments on the Bible.

All he did was simply pick & choose verses and take them out of context to support his belief. Scripture can be used to support arguments for stoning children, incest and polygamy; how is your statement meaningful or authoritative?

But why does being a minister exclude you from making good historical arguments? You are questioning his credentials, not his arguments.

Well, by questioning his credentials I am questioning his arguments. Clearly the Reverend Cassels has anti-catholic beliefs and those beliefs are reflected in his works. The only reason you consider these “good historical arguments” is because they agree with your own. Just because the Reverend Cassels is a minister doesn’t automatically make him a qualified historian or legitimize his conclusions.

 

[Wildgraywolf]

This is only one of ten quotations I made…

Indeed… How many really bad sources does it take to wreck credibility? Just one…

 

[csmatyi]

No. Killing bison with guns is not the same thing as seeking out, trying and executing “millions” of human beings, mostly in periods before the advent of gunpowder.

Killing bison with guns…

hmmm… they had to reload after each shot.

Killing people at short range with swords is just as simple. Note, they killed thousands of Protestants in 1 single night in 1572 on the night os st. Bartholemew’s…