- Status
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silentstar
Guest
This sounds like a conversation you need to have with him and your therapist and maybe a priest, not people on the Internet. To me the question comes down to, do you see yourself loving him, and him loving you, and being secure in each other’s love without needing to rewrite or question the past. I’m sorry to hear about your anxiety which I know is very painful. Having a loved one can help you deal with psychological pain but it won’t end it and it won’t change the need to face your issues. I can’t tell from your post if part of the issue is anxiety attacks b/c you don’t feel secure in the relationship, or if the anxiety has more to do with your wishing he could make you feel better if he said/did things differently. If you really do have issues with OCD that is beyond his power. Prayer, treatment, and possibly medication will help with that, and I hope you have supportive people in the Church like a priest you can talk to.
F
faithfully
Guest
The thing is… You may be absolutely gorgeous… and you’re obsessing over this will detract from your looks.
It’s entirely possible your BF is a jerk. How do you know this isn’t his way of manipulating you. Perhaps your OCD is obvious, and he goes for someone who he can control??? I mean, what’s to get used to? Is your nose where your forehead is? This is all just bizarre.
You need to realize that attraction is a WHOLE package. So maybe you don’t fall into secular, stereo typical beauty. And that’s why he didn’t notice. Or maybe you did, and that’s why he didn’t go for you…
I have a girlfriend… she is GORGEOUS… She’s blond, about 5’10, all the curves in the right place.
I can’t tell you how many guys wrote her off. Just wouldn’t even approach her. Because of course, obviously she’s only concerned about her looks, must be stupid, and only cares what kind of car they drive… RIGHT??? NOT the type of woman they were looking for… in fact… she’s not even “that pretty”…
Except… WRONG… the sweetest person you ever met, BRILLIANT, would rather be in top down jeep just having fun… ASSUMPTIONS drive a bit of the attraction.
You can bet plenty of guys approached her, assuming she was easy, stupid, and well… you name it.
In the end,
If a person makes you feel bad when you’re with them… maybe it’s just not a good relationship.
But I would def. work with a therapist. Maybe you just can’t imagine that anyone will be with you, and if they are, then there is something wrong them…
That’s for you and a professional to work out…
It’s entirely possible your BF is a jerk. How do you know this isn’t his way of manipulating you. Perhaps your OCD is obvious, and he goes for someone who he can control??? I mean, what’s to get used to? Is your nose where your forehead is? This is all just bizarre.
You need to realize that attraction is a WHOLE package. So maybe you don’t fall into secular, stereo typical beauty. And that’s why he didn’t notice. Or maybe you did, and that’s why he didn’t go for you…
I have a girlfriend… she is GORGEOUS… She’s blond, about 5’10, all the curves in the right place.
I can’t tell you how many guys wrote her off. Just wouldn’t even approach her. Because of course, obviously she’s only concerned about her looks, must be stupid, and only cares what kind of car they drive… RIGHT??? NOT the type of woman they were looking for… in fact… she’s not even “that pretty”…
Except… WRONG… the sweetest person you ever met, BRILLIANT, would rather be in top down jeep just having fun… ASSUMPTIONS drive a bit of the attraction.
You can bet plenty of guys approached her, assuming she was easy, stupid, and well… you name it.
In the end,
If a person makes you feel bad when you’re with them… maybe it’s just not a good relationship.
But I would def. work with a therapist. Maybe you just can’t imagine that anyone will be with you, and if they are, then there is something wrong them…
That’s for you and a professional to work out…
H
hellosunshine
Guest
I’m not ugly but I’m not ridiculously gorgeous either. (If you want an idea, people constantly tell me I look like Taylor Swift with darker hair.) My boyfriend is a great guy and he’s EXTREMELY honest. He tries his best to make me feel good about myself and he tells me often that he thinks I’m beautiful. We both love each other very much.The thing is… You may be absolutely gorgeous… and you’re obsessing over this will detract from your looks.
It’s entirely possible your BF is a jerk. How do you know this isn’t his way of manipulating you. Perhaps your OCD is obvious, and he goes for someone who he can control??? I mean, what’s to get used to? Is your nose where your forehead is? This is all just bizarre.
You need to realize that attraction is a WHOLE package. So maybe you don’t fall into secular, stereo typical beauty. And that’s why he didn’t notice. Or maybe you did, and that’s why he didn’t go for you…
I have a girlfriend… she is GORGEOUS… She’s blond, about 5’10, all the curves in the right place.
I can’t tell you how many guys wrote her off. Just wouldn’t even approach her. Because of course, obviously she’s only concerned about her looks, must be stupid, and only cares what kind of car they drive… RIGHT??? NOT the type of woman they were looking for… in fact… she’s not even “that pretty”…
Except… WRONG… the sweetest person you ever met, BRILLIANT, would rather be in top down jeep just having fun… ASSUMPTIONS drive a bit of the attraction.
You can bet plenty of guys approached her, assuming she was easy, stupid, and well… you name it.
In the end,
If a person makes you feel bad when you’re with them… maybe it’s just not a good relationship.
But I would def. work with a therapist. Maybe you just can’t imagine that anyone will be with you, and if they are, then there is something wrong them…
I
Irish_Girl_68
Guest
These are all great points…The thing is… You may be absolutely gorgeous… and you’re obsessing over this will detract from your looks.
You need to realize that attraction is a WHOLE package. So maybe you don’t fall into secular, stereo typical beauty. And that’s why he didn’t notice. Or maybe you did, and that’s why he didn’t go for you…
If a person makes you feel bad when you’re with them… maybe it’s just not a good relationship.
But I would def. work with a therapist. Maybe you just can’t imagine that anyone will be with you, and if they are, then there is something wrong them…
H
hellosunshine
Guest
I think I may break up with him. I don’t know what else to do. My panic attacks are affecting me and my family. It’s getting to be too much to handle. Maybe I’m better off lonely.
N
NewsTheMan
Guest
I think you should break up with him and sort out your personal issues first. I mean that in the nicest way possible -this being the internet though I know how that will read.
You need to get some self esteem. This will hopefully sort out your dependence on your boyfriend as a source of all affirmation. Psychologists could help I am sure. I would take it to the Lord in prayer and also start reading. Something like “The Good News about Sex and Marriage”. It looks to me like you’ve been sold on the non-Catholic idea of romantic love and sex and now you obsess over your looks.
Relax man. I can guarantee that no man on earth dates a girl he isn’t attracted to. Especially if you are in a chaste relationship where he isn’t just using you.
By the way, that whole “numbers” rating system pretty much sucks. As a guy, I never do it. Everybody is someone elses number 10. And to God our Father we are all 10’s. If I don’t find someone attractive I am not arrogant enough to think my estimation of their looks counts.
God bless.
B
BrickRoux
Guest
Hellosunshine,
My dear girl, have I got a lot to tell you, because I was in your same boat.
The primary thing I want to say to you, your boyfriend, and everyone posting here is that “rating” or “ranking” human beings on their facial shape and body composition is not acceptable, not from any Catholic or remotely ethical standpoint.You deeply undercut all human dignity when you do it. We need to watch the quiet, insidious ways we speak, because it’s often the ones that seem “normal” and “not a big deal” that are the most devastating to a culture of human dignity. Stop. Everyone stop. Every body that God makes is a 10; there is no objective ranking. We are each attracted to different people, but that is personal and should be private. And please don’t bring up biology - as Catholics, we have already agreed to place human dignity, especially when it comes to sexuality, far above mere biological impulse.
Now, let’s go back to the root of this issue, and from a Catholic perspective. You mention thinking about breaking up with your boyfriend but being afraid to do so because you don’t want to be lonely. If you have a feeling in your heart that you are unfit to pursue true love with your boyfriend but you stay with him because you’re lonely, what’s going on can be described as using him. Even when we feel love for people, we can be using them - we use their humanity to make our lives “feel complete,” and even though our intentions aren’t malicious, they are not morally right. You’ll never feel at peace or fulfilled by love if you shove your conscience and morality under the rug in favor of what feels right or safe. I’m not accusing you of anything - I can’t see into your mind! - but it’s something to think about.
Let’s say that you jump that hurdle, though, and believe so far that you’re meant to pursue things with your boyfriend. I think the next thing you need to do is take a deep breath, take some time (do not be emotional or hysterical during this conversation), and then have a talk with him. You need to find out how much looks mean to him. And you need to stop getting your own self-esteem from men and what you look like. On this matter, I have a lot of personal experience. You see, when I first started dating the man I’m about to marry, he was a religious man but also had never had his secular thinking about women’s looks challenged. Looks mattered to him; they mattered a lot. From our first date, I told him that I didn’t agree, that I was not going to try to change myself for him, that being with someone merely because she was beautiful or wanting her to change in some way to become “more attractive” was a morally shaky misuse of human creation.
I was 28. It was the first time in my life I’d ever really understood the theology of the body and stood up for myself, and it felt great. I lived my twenties before that date just like you, swinging from shaky terror (“Am I pretty enough?”) to impetuous vanity (“I’m not a supermodel but I’m prettier than lots of other girls.”) Here’s what that does: it rots your soul. Here’s who subscribes to that kind of vision of the world: people with hurt in their souls. If I can reach out any girl and have her not have to learn lessons in such a difficult way as I did, then I will.
After we were engaged, my fiance and I were having a talk about the beginning of our relationship. He told me that when we were very first going out, before we kissed, he had been seeing another girl whom at the time he thought was more attractive: facially, bodily, everything. I will admit to you that it felt like a spear in my heart; I am only human, after all. I had to leave the room, but when I came back, I was ready to listen. He told me that I also turned his world upside down when I told him that under no circumstances could I have a true relationship with someone who prized me as, essentially, a piece of flesh with certain contours. It is in the same vein that I refuse to be in a relationship with a man who looks at other women or pornography. The body is here for us to carry out our work and our love and our sacrifice; it is an instrument of worship. It is not here to gratify others. I won’t misuse others and I will NOT be misused. My fiance says that it was a make or break moment and that he knew I was right, and so he dumped the other girl. I never knew this at the time, but I can see it in the way he acts now as a man. Ask your boyfriend how he believes looks affect love, especially Christian love, and be ready to stand up for yourself and all people.
You might be petrified to leave if you find out that he values looks too much; you might have heard rumors that “all men are like that.” They’re not. Don’t fall for that line. There are men out there with their heads on straight. And your boyfriend might surprise you. Maybe he doesn’t think about looks a lot, or even care to think about looks too much, and he wishes that you wouldn’t make it an issue.
The body fails us. It gets old. Love that concerns itself more than fleetingly to looks will suffer. A man and a woman, in order to get married, but be physically attracted to one another, but this is something that the body does all on its own and doesn’t need to be dwelt upon. Don’t continue a relationship with a man who believes that he’s justified in ranking women, and don’t believe that you can be happy or healthy if you rank yourself. You denigrate yourself, and you denigrate the women whom you consider “5s” and “4s” and “3s.” I promise you that you can pull your mind out of a world that amuses itself by wrecking human dignity and find real joy and peace in a world that refuses to play those disgusting games. Therapy, especially with a Catholic therapist, might be a great way to help yourself along that path.
I wish you so much peace, from a 10 to a fellow 10 in a world of nothing but 10s.
My dear girl, have I got a lot to tell you, because I was in your same boat.
The primary thing I want to say to you, your boyfriend, and everyone posting here is that “rating” or “ranking” human beings on their facial shape and body composition is not acceptable, not from any Catholic or remotely ethical standpoint.You deeply undercut all human dignity when you do it. We need to watch the quiet, insidious ways we speak, because it’s often the ones that seem “normal” and “not a big deal” that are the most devastating to a culture of human dignity. Stop. Everyone stop. Every body that God makes is a 10; there is no objective ranking. We are each attracted to different people, but that is personal and should be private. And please don’t bring up biology - as Catholics, we have already agreed to place human dignity, especially when it comes to sexuality, far above mere biological impulse.
Now, let’s go back to the root of this issue, and from a Catholic perspective. You mention thinking about breaking up with your boyfriend but being afraid to do so because you don’t want to be lonely. If you have a feeling in your heart that you are unfit to pursue true love with your boyfriend but you stay with him because you’re lonely, what’s going on can be described as using him. Even when we feel love for people, we can be using them - we use their humanity to make our lives “feel complete,” and even though our intentions aren’t malicious, they are not morally right. You’ll never feel at peace or fulfilled by love if you shove your conscience and morality under the rug in favor of what feels right or safe. I’m not accusing you of anything - I can’t see into your mind! - but it’s something to think about.
Let’s say that you jump that hurdle, though, and believe so far that you’re meant to pursue things with your boyfriend. I think the next thing you need to do is take a deep breath, take some time (do not be emotional or hysterical during this conversation), and then have a talk with him. You need to find out how much looks mean to him. And you need to stop getting your own self-esteem from men and what you look like. On this matter, I have a lot of personal experience. You see, when I first started dating the man I’m about to marry, he was a religious man but also had never had his secular thinking about women’s looks challenged. Looks mattered to him; they mattered a lot. From our first date, I told him that I didn’t agree, that I was not going to try to change myself for him, that being with someone merely because she was beautiful or wanting her to change in some way to become “more attractive” was a morally shaky misuse of human creation.
I was 28. It was the first time in my life I’d ever really understood the theology of the body and stood up for myself, and it felt great. I lived my twenties before that date just like you, swinging from shaky terror (“Am I pretty enough?”) to impetuous vanity (“I’m not a supermodel but I’m prettier than lots of other girls.”) Here’s what that does: it rots your soul. Here’s who subscribes to that kind of vision of the world: people with hurt in their souls. If I can reach out any girl and have her not have to learn lessons in such a difficult way as I did, then I will.
After we were engaged, my fiance and I were having a talk about the beginning of our relationship. He told me that when we were very first going out, before we kissed, he had been seeing another girl whom at the time he thought was more attractive: facially, bodily, everything. I will admit to you that it felt like a spear in my heart; I am only human, after all. I had to leave the room, but when I came back, I was ready to listen. He told me that I also turned his world upside down when I told him that under no circumstances could I have a true relationship with someone who prized me as, essentially, a piece of flesh with certain contours. It is in the same vein that I refuse to be in a relationship with a man who looks at other women or pornography. The body is here for us to carry out our work and our love and our sacrifice; it is an instrument of worship. It is not here to gratify others. I won’t misuse others and I will NOT be misused. My fiance says that it was a make or break moment and that he knew I was right, and so he dumped the other girl. I never knew this at the time, but I can see it in the way he acts now as a man. Ask your boyfriend how he believes looks affect love, especially Christian love, and be ready to stand up for yourself and all people.
You might be petrified to leave if you find out that he values looks too much; you might have heard rumors that “all men are like that.” They’re not. Don’t fall for that line. There are men out there with their heads on straight. And your boyfriend might surprise you. Maybe he doesn’t think about looks a lot, or even care to think about looks too much, and he wishes that you wouldn’t make it an issue.
The body fails us. It gets old. Love that concerns itself more than fleetingly to looks will suffer. A man and a woman, in order to get married, but be physically attracted to one another, but this is something that the body does all on its own and doesn’t need to be dwelt upon. Don’t continue a relationship with a man who believes that he’s justified in ranking women, and don’t believe that you can be happy or healthy if you rank yourself. You denigrate yourself, and you denigrate the women whom you consider “5s” and “4s” and “3s.” I promise you that you can pull your mind out of a world that amuses itself by wrecking human dignity and find real joy and peace in a world that refuses to play those disgusting games. Therapy, especially with a Catholic therapist, might be a great way to help yourself along that path.
I wish you so much peace, from a 10 to a fellow 10 in a world of nothing but 10s.
R
rayne89
Guest
Sweety you are not ready for a relationship. You are looking for a guy to fill this huge hole of insecurity inside of you. The fact that you “asked repeatedly and on many different occasions” about his attraction to you and that it turned your “world upside down” when he admitted he was initially not over-the-top attracted to you.
First off some how you have grown to base your self worth on physical beauty. Secondly you dismiss the idea of growing in attraction to someone as a horrible, painful idea when actually this is a healthy thing in a real relationship. Your boyfriend isn’t shallow and that is a *good *thing.
On top of this your OCD is spinning your thoughts and insecurities out of control. Your boyfriend can not be your fix, your compulsion to stave off the anxiety. Your compulsion to constantly look for reassurance will strain any relationship. First thing is to get your OCD under better control and second is to work with your therapist in understanding the dynamics of a healthy relationship.
First off some how you have grown to base your self worth on physical beauty. Secondly you dismiss the idea of growing in attraction to someone as a horrible, painful idea when actually this is a healthy thing in a real relationship. Your boyfriend isn’t shallow and that is a *good *thing.
On top of this your OCD is spinning your thoughts and insecurities out of control. Your boyfriend can not be your fix, your compulsion to stave off the anxiety. Your compulsion to constantly look for reassurance will strain any relationship. First thing is to get your OCD under better control and second is to work with your therapist in understanding the dynamics of a healthy relationship.
H
hellosunshine
Guest
Okay, that’s it. I’m done being negative about this issue. Yeah, it hurts. But Jesus said we have to forgive and forget, right? After all, the issue of me not feeling pretty enough to my boyfriend is all in my head, right? My boyfriend never fails to tell me that he thinks I’m beautiful. He’s a great guy and I love him. Although my boyfriend himself asked me if I’m just settling (since he knows about my issue with my looks), I don’t feel like I am. I think this is God sending me help to overcome the self esteem and OCD issues that have long stood in my way. I think I can get over this, with a little help from God. I want to just be rid of this vanity, especially since he didn’t necessarily find me ugly. He just said I was very young-looking. I guess that counts for something. So thanks for all your advice, and please continue to pray for me and my relationship and my mental health.
K
kib
Guest
Good for you sunshine. God bless you.
C
ChiRho
Guest
While it’s a nice sentiment, it’s just not true. It’s like saying that there are no people who are more intelligent, stronger or faster than others. Obviously this is not the case! There’s nothing un-Catholic about saying that some people are more attractive than others. While there isn’t an entirely objective scale, most people can generally agree about what is attractive and what is not. Not 100% agreement, but its a pretty well established thing, enough to show a collective consensus.
Saying that everyone is a “10” is rather like saying that everyone has an IQ of 150. If everyone is “special” in this aspect, no one is. Everyone is special in their human dignity, how God loves us each as ourselves, but this is not the same thing as saying that someone has a better quality than another, as I’ll explain:
Admitting that there are others more attractive than you does not diminish your human dignity any more than my admitting that Stephen Hawking is smarter than me diminishes mine. Every day I am realizing that someone else is much better than me at something, and if I can change this aspect to make myself better, I should. Equality of dignity does not = equality of ability or attractiveness, and it never has. Furthermore, it shouldn’t! Society would not work properly if everyone were the same.
These outliers, statistical anomalies, are gifts to the world. Top scientists, athletes, artists, actors, etc. all give us something to admire, as long as it is to the service of God. People should be careful not idolize to the point that they begin to loathe themselves, but this is not the only option: people can admire those who are better without hating themselves. The playing field need not be leveled because some people have their feelings hurt by people who are better than them. This is the sin of their pride getting in the way, and they must learn to grow past that sin.
That being said, there are two different extremes: people caring way too much about their looks and physical appearance, and people not caring about it at all! Both are dangerous and should be avoided.
Those who care too much about looks are needlessly shallow, constantly worried about appearance and never tending to the thing which are much more important: the soul. Caring too much about looks is by far the more common problem, but both should be addressed.
Those who reject entirely that looks are at all important ignore that God also created attraction and it is good. Furthermore, that there are aspects of ourselves that we should constantly strive to perfect. The soul must be healthy, and a healthy body helps this. Being attractive and presentable makes you more likely to be successful in many things.
So, the issue I have with telling people that everyone is a “10” is that it’s not true and it results in false hope. Why not advise people to simply hope in more important things? Being aware of flaws is not bad, and flaws which are able to be improved should be. Some flaws cannot be improved, and therefore must be lived with. Often this is a cross of vanity that we must bear. The tragic thing is that telling people that they are all a “perfect 10” is that this does nothing to ease their worries (in my experience, and as is increasingly becoming confirmed in a culture where people are constantly and needlessly affirmed) - it makes them more vain and less secure.
OP: You’ve gotten some great advice in this thread, and you seem to be taking it to heart. I applaud you in this. Your bf sounds like a great guy, and greater still because he was not after solely you for your looks! beware of the guy who is. Part of conquering a mental struggle - and that’s what this is - is realizing that victory will come when you can have impulsive thoughts but not give them the time of day. We may never be able to abolish our insecurities, but through use of our rational mind we can realize that these insecurities are irrational - not worth even considering - and move on through the day.
Pray that God may illuminate your mind to the truth, which sets a mind to worry about more important things, and puts restless thoughts to rest.
I
Irishmom2
Guest
Dearest girl,
I know this must be difficult for you. You can’t seem to see past the outer layer of people. Are you saying that looks are so important to you that you would not consider someone that was “only” a 6? You need to stop judging everything by how someone–yourself included looks. People are so much more than what they look like.
I really don’t know what number my husband would put me at. I would never ask him that either. It is not important what he thinks. It is only important what I think about me. I like to think that he married me for what is in my heart, for what I bring to our relationship emotionally, spiritually, and for the talents I have that he appreciates.
I am glad to see that you have scheduled some counseling. You cannot make anyone else happy with you unless you are happy with yourself. May God bless you and guide you.
H
hellosunshine
Guest
I know it shouldn’t matter, but it’s hard for me to get over. I’m trying, but everyday is a constant struggle filled with panic attacks. I do not wish to feel this way. It just happens.
K
karow
Guest
Sounds to me like you’re already doing the best thing for yourself, your boyfriend, and your relationship: therapy. Only you can answer the questions you’ve posed here, and a trained and experienced therapist can help you sort through your issues and emotions so you can best deal with them. Good luck.
L
LongingForLight
Guest
It might not hurt to talk to your physician about this, as well as your therapist. When I was having anxiety attacks about my relationships, it was due mostly to low iron. There are also other medical problems that can leave you vulnerable to anxious emotions and thoughts. I would recommend doing this in addition to visiting a therapist and a priest.
God bless you. These anxious feelings are a difficult cross to bear. Do trust that God has a greater purpose in allowing you to experience this! If you do trust in Him, you will be surprised how your struggles ultimately become your strengths.
L
Luvz2travel
Guest
You know more about women than you think…lol. What you said is partly true most woman are perfectionists and would change some part of themselves if they could.
All men are attracted to beautiful women. Their wives and girlfriends should understand this. It’s just the way men are made. No, a man shouldn’t be a jerk about staring at other girls, but it’s nature.
Something you need to understand-there are questions that SHOULD NOT BE ASKED. Don’t bring them up in a releationship until much later.
Look for yourself for security. You admit your insecure-great. Now do something about it. Go out and earn a sense of self worth by doing things that provide it.
I assure you, your much prettier than you think. Many of the worlds most beautiful women think they are unattractive. Some very unattractive women think their gorgeous and are arrogant and snobby about it. I know nothing about women, it’s just an observation I’ve seen.
In any OP having doubts about your appearance is natural but voicing them out and pestering the ones we are close to for confirmation is not a good idea and comes off as clingly, desperate or a major turn off. I would avoid it if you can. Let it go. You have a boyfriend who loves you and sees more in you then others do so you’re even more beautiful to him. Looks is only part of a package anyway. I’ve always wondered how Micky Rooney for example ended with all his gorgeous women like Ava Gardiner…you know Marilyn Monroe really didn’t think she was much to look at either. Looks didn’t help Anna Nicole out much. Focus on GOD instead of looks.
P
PennyinCanada
Guest
There are plenty of very average people, (*less *than a 6!) who support themselves, are good neighbors, who get married, raise a family, are plugged into their church. They have found joy in loving others. Mother Theresa wouldn’t be a “10”, but what a heart in that woman! Her lips praised and thanked God, and her hands and her prayers were for the service of others.
I don’t think anyone has said this yet but when did you have a good confession? When have you spent time with the Blessed Sacrament? Please don’t “feed” this obsession any longer or give in to it. It’s so destructive to the awesome person God wishes you to grow into.
Blessings to you.
I don’t think anyone has said this yet but when did you have a good confession? When have you spent time with the Blessed Sacrament? Please don’t “feed” this obsession any longer or give in to it. It’s so destructive to the awesome person God wishes you to grow into.
Blessings to you.
B
BrickRoux
Guest
ChiRo, I don’t want to get too philosophical on a post that’s about a specific problem, but then I suppose that in many ways that’s what the boards are for…
I know this will sound crazy, but after years of studying educational equality, philosophies of human rights, and perhaps most critically, child cognition, I have come to the conclusion that our ideas about “intelligence” are no more objective than anything else that’s a longstanding product of specific cultural development and the machination of regimes of power.
Sigh. I know. Someone has to question the assumptions that we’ve made about objective measurements, though. Why not pain-in-the-neck graduate students who are totally abstract and impractical? I really believe it, though, all joking aside.
As for abilities to make a better cake or run faster, those are just arbitrary things that we choose to acknowledge and value. Everyone can do something better than someone else, it just may not be something that we value. Again, all I’m saying is that there’s nothing objective in how we rank people, and the more we can see through this, the better we’ll be - and in my estimation, the more holy.
This doesn’t mean that people don’t have gifts that enable them to do wonderful things working in their given place and time and culture, but I don’t think that God gives out gifts in the spirit of competition and I don’t think there’s any problem with saying that those gifts might, again, be culturally relevant and not objective. Objective truths are the Holy Spirit, the realness of Heaven, the equal worth of all human beings.
The abstract out of the way, one argues that, well, civilization is already organized the way it is. Our intelligence tests might not be objective, but they do help us to know how to best utilize talent in our given time and educational systems. That’s true. I concede that. For instance, we know what kind of intelligence makes for a great neurosurgeon, and you and I both want someone with that kind of intelligence if it’s our brains being operated on! But at very least one can say that when necessary, “ranking,” or at least getting taxonomical about intelligence has some kind of human purpose… e.g. to take a tumor out of someone’s head is a good thing.
But what does human beauty bring us in the sense that it need be ranked? What is the purpose of ranking beauty? Unlike the brain surgeon, what we’re left with when we say “She’s a more beautiful woman than the other” is not someone who is a better girlfriend or wife, someone who is capable of good more so than anyone else. Since nobody should look at anyone else with lust - Jesus was pretty clear about that - and objectification is a soul-gutting form of sin, there’s not a lot left. Human beings are not for decoration, so beauty has no vocational purpose. I really still maintain that ranking the morphology of facial structures and body types is degrading and oppressive.
I know this will sound crazy, but after years of studying educational equality, philosophies of human rights, and perhaps most critically, child cognition, I have come to the conclusion that our ideas about “intelligence” are no more objective than anything else that’s a longstanding product of specific cultural development and the machination of regimes of power.
Sigh. I know. Someone has to question the assumptions that we’ve made about objective measurements, though. Why not pain-in-the-neck graduate students who are totally abstract and impractical? I really believe it, though, all joking aside.
As for abilities to make a better cake or run faster, those are just arbitrary things that we choose to acknowledge and value. Everyone can do something better than someone else, it just may not be something that we value. Again, all I’m saying is that there’s nothing objective in how we rank people, and the more we can see through this, the better we’ll be - and in my estimation, the more holy.
This doesn’t mean that people don’t have gifts that enable them to do wonderful things working in their given place and time and culture, but I don’t think that God gives out gifts in the spirit of competition and I don’t think there’s any problem with saying that those gifts might, again, be culturally relevant and not objective. Objective truths are the Holy Spirit, the realness of Heaven, the equal worth of all human beings.
The abstract out of the way, one argues that, well, civilization is already organized the way it is. Our intelligence tests might not be objective, but they do help us to know how to best utilize talent in our given time and educational systems. That’s true. I concede that. For instance, we know what kind of intelligence makes for a great neurosurgeon, and you and I both want someone with that kind of intelligence if it’s our brains being operated on! But at very least one can say that when necessary, “ranking,” or at least getting taxonomical about intelligence has some kind of human purpose… e.g. to take a tumor out of someone’s head is a good thing.
But what does human beauty bring us in the sense that it need be ranked? What is the purpose of ranking beauty? Unlike the brain surgeon, what we’re left with when we say “She’s a more beautiful woman than the other” is not someone who is a better girlfriend or wife, someone who is capable of good more so than anyone else. Since nobody should look at anyone else with lust - Jesus was pretty clear about that - and objectification is a soul-gutting form of sin, there’s not a lot left. Human beings are not for decoration, so beauty has no vocational purpose. I really still maintain that ranking the morphology of facial structures and body types is degrading and oppressive.
C
ChiRho
Guest
Trust me, I’m not advocating going around giving people numbers to wear, their IQ on their right shoulder and their attractiveness on their left. And I do agree that it is of course possible to objectify someone when you view them “as a number”. This is not my aim; rather to indicate that yes, there are some unspoken truths that exist.
Regarding the usefulness of intelligence over the usefulness of beauty, Scientists think that beauty is a strong indicator of health and good genes (surely there must be some reason we value it). A strong physique and large jaw in men are indicators of levels of testosterone, while hips on a woman and other features are indicators of fertility. This is obviously useful in the selection of a mate as well as procreation with a mate, and this desire is deep seated in our hearts. Although I won’t claim a beautiful surgeon is as better one in the same way a smart one is better than an unintelligent one. Of course it can be misused and turned to lust - but so can intelligence. Ambition and pride are also sinful, and the intelligent are much more likely to be agnostic or atheists, due to their level of education and the illusion of self-sufficiency.
Now you say that you don’t think there is an objective measure of intelligence. I agree in part. There isn’t something 100% unbiased, 100% accurate. There are however tests which are very predictable in numerous life outcomes, so as to show general trends. The intelligent and dull alike are given to certain advantages and certain pitfalls. But this doesn’t at all diminish one’s human dignity, which is extended from the moment of conception to a baby that is neither intelligent nor athletic nor good at much of anything - but is very loved.
Regarding athleticism as being arbitrary specifically, I can assure you that the speed at which someone can run or the amount of weight they can lift is very indicative of many characteristics. Those who are stronger have even been shown to have a lower mortality of all causes…basically they’re harder to kill. Whats more, unlike some factors which are more subject to cultural norms and relevancy, athleticism is athleticism, regardless of where you live in the world. The numbers don’t lie. Cake making might seem arbitrary until you eat a bad cake!
There can be abuses, and perhaps you are correct in believing that it is a trend too often seen - where people are objectified. However, my only worry is that the pendulum might be swung too far back. The choice doesn’t have to be “either you all you care about is looks or you don’t care about looks at all”. It doesn’t have to be this simplified, and people having reasonable insecurities about their looks is not a bad thing. Insecurity, when reasonable and not irrational, is a great gift that has drawn many out of apathy to strive for something better.
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