Instructions Issued on Medjugorje by CDF via Apostolic Nuncio

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excellent post by Jimmy Akin, thanks!

But, how do we know it is the actual letter? and why wasn’t it published publicly? the way it hit the Catholic media it seems like it is leaked at best.
???🤷

If that is the case then what is everyone basing there opinion on? If this is just a leaked story how can Jimmy write about what the Nuncio said?

I’m not fo;lowing your logic here? If we don’t kow what the letter said to the bishops everything that we are talking about is just conjecture and ther is no evidence that the nuncio made any type of statement that is cause for concern.

Until we can read the actual letter!!!🤷
 
???🤷

If that is the case then what is everyone basing there opinion on? If this is just a leaked story how can Jimmy write about what the Nuncio said?

I’m not fo;lowing your logic here? If we don’t kow what the letter said to the bishops everything that we are talking about is just conjecture and ther is no evidence that the nuncio made any type of statement that is cause for concern.

Until we can read the actual letter!!!🤷
While I found Jimmy’s commentary good, I wasn’t sure if it was a true document. One can still have a good commentary on a false document and still have it be a good commentary.

I am not saying one has to physically read the letter, but the way it was released it is very suspicious, where one blog is citing another site citing another website, etc. That is until I read the post from CNA where they confirmed “CNA confirmed that the letter was sent to every diocese in the U.S.”

Not looking to pick a fight or for absolute certitude, I just wanted the buck to stop somewhere. Even so, this still seems like a leak.
 
It still seems like a leak? 🤷

YOu just stated that every US diocese was sent the letter. Not sure what there is to leak considering this is something that the CDF wants the laity to know.

I just finished reading Jimmy’s letter also, very balanced and respectful of both sides with the same amount of information.

I’m sorry but I just don’t see anythoing new we can kow from both the letter and Jimmy. We can speculate sure but we know where that gets us. Considering these events have been going on for so long and the church has not made anything official, I’m not holding my breath that something is going to happen without movement on at least some of the secrets being revealed. The Church has waited this long already, whats a couple more decades.
It is said that the secrets will be revaeled before the death of the priest who was given the reponsibility of revealing these supposed secrets. he is now in his 60’s my guess is the secrets and the great sign will happen in at least the next 2 decades or they won’t!

Cheers!👍
 
It still seems like a leak? 🤷

YOu just stated that every US diocese was sent the letter. Not sure what there is to leak considering this is something that the CDF wants the laity to know.

I just finished reading Jimmy’s letter also, very balanced and respectful of both sides with the same amount of information.

I’m sorry but I just don’t see anythoing new we can kow from both the letter and Jimmy. We can speculate sure but we know where that gets us. Considering these events have been going on for so long and the church has not made anything official, I’m not holding my breath that something is going to happen without movement on at least some of the secrets being revealed. The Church has waited this long already, whats a couple more decades.
It is said that the secrets will be revaeled before the death of the priest who was given the reponsibility of revealing these supposed secrets. he is now in his 60’s my guess is the secrets and the great sign will happen in at least the next 2 decades or they won’t!

Cheers!👍
The letter that has appeared (and which you posted in post #36) is addressed to the General Secretary of the USCCB. Someone had to physically copy that letter and upload it to the internet. That’s what I mean by “leak”.

Further, the letter twice mentions the need to pass this information on to the bishops. It does not say to publicize the letter for all the world to see. CNA seems to verify that the information was passed on to every bishop. But that still doesn’t mean the letter was not leaked to the press.
 
It still seems like a leak? 🤷

YOu just stated that every US diocese was sent the letter. Not sure what there is to leak considering this is something that the CDF wants the laity to know.

I just finished reading Jimmy’s letter also, very balanced and respectful of both sides with the same amount of information.

I’m sorry but I just don’t see anythoing new we can kow from both the letter and Jimmy. We can speculate sure but we know where that gets us. Considering these events have been going on for so long and the church has not made anything official, I’m not holding my breath that something is going to happen without movement on at least some of the secrets being revealed. The Church has waited this long already, whats a couple more decades.
It is said that the secrets will be revaeled before the death of the priest who was given the reponsibility of revealing these supposed secrets. he is now in his 60’s my guess is the secrets and the great sign will happen in at least the next 2 decades or they won’t!

Cheers!👍
Leaked or not does not matter. The proof of its authenticity, if you need it, is in the fact that a person mentioned in the letter, alleged visionary Ivan’s recent two scheduled appearances at US New England area churches were cancelled on short notice.

And since we’re guessing, my guess is the secrets and the great sign will happen in the next 4 years (aka 2017, the 100th anniversary of Fatima, of which we still await its promised Triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the only unfulfilled prophecy from the Fatima apparition), or they won’t! 😉

God bless you.
 
It still seems like a leak? 🤷

YOu just stated that every US diocese was sent the letter. Not sure what there is to leak considering this is something that the CDF wants the laity to know.
The diocese were sent the letter and yes the laity were to know but it can still be a leak if it was released prematurely. I think that is so given by the fact we are not hearing about it through the dioceses or anything official. Plus, the reporting is after the fact - CNA confims that the letter was sent to the diocese, not the diocese hands the letter to CNA.
I’m sorry but I just don’t see anythoing new we can kow from both the letter and Jimmy. We can speculate sure but we know where that gets us. Considering these events have been going on for so long and the church has not made anything official, I’m not holding my breath that something is going to happen without movement on at least some of the secrets being revealed. The Church has waited this long already, whats a couple more decades.
It is said that the secrets will be revaeled before the death of the priest who was given the reponsibility of revealing these supposed secrets. he is now in his 60’s my guess is the secrets and the great sign will happen in at least the next 2 decades or they won’t!

Cheers!👍
yeah… but, it seems one of the “secrets” has already been revealed. If you read one of the documents from the Bishop of that diocese, I remember that it said Ivan gave them one of the secrets on a piece of paper and then when it was being reviewed by the counsel, he later said he never gave them any paper.
 
The diocese were sent the letter and yes the laity were to know but it can still be a leak if it was released prematurely. I think that is so given by the fact we are not hearing about it through the dioceses or anything official. Plus, the reporting is after the fact - CNA confims that the letter was sent to the diocese, not the diocese hands the letter to CNA.

yeah… but, it seems one of the “secrets” has already been revealed. If you read one of the documents from the Bishop of that diocese, I remember that it said Ivan gave them one of the secrets on a piece of paper and then when it was being reviewed by the counsel, he later said he never gave them any paper.
I believe it was investigative journalist Michael Brown who first broke the story as opposed to CNA - it was on his website with the document very very early yesterday morning.

It is here:

spiritdaily.com/medjconfusion.htm

As for the supposed secret you mention, both haters and lovers of Medjugorje (and any in between perhaps) know it is alleged that a ‘3rd secret’ will be a permanent sign that will appear at the site of the first apparition, or so it goes.

God bless you.
 
If this report is accurate, and I reiterate if, then I can’t see how this apparition could ever gain approval. Again, I don’t have any knowledge if this article is accurate, but if it is, it’s very problematic to say the least!
catholicexchange.com/can-you-trust-medjugorje

Peace, Mark
Your post if off topic.

This thread concerns the Instructions Issued on Medjugorje by CDF via Apostolic Nuncio that became public yesterday.

Your post is a link to a Medj hater’s article and will result in others posting links to Medj lovers’ articles. We should stay as close to the topic as possible, as per forum guidelines!! 😉

So what impact do you think the newly revealed CDF directive will have, if any?

God bless you.
 
Your post if off topic.

This thread concerns the Instructions Issued on Medjugorje by CDF via Apostolic Nuncio that became public yesterday.

Your post is a link to a Medj hater’s article and will result in others posting links to Medj lovers’ articles. We should stay as close to the topic as possible, as per forum guidelines!! 😉

So what impact do you think the newly revealed CDF directive will have, if any?

God bless you.
I didn’t know that Catholic Exchange contained Medjugorje haters articles…so my apologies. 🙂 This is why I made clear in my post by saying “If this report is accurate, and I reiterate if.” As far as the impact, it’s hard to say. There have been so many mixed signals of late that I’d be just speculating, and not very informed speculation at that. And beehumble, May God Bless You as well! 🙂

Peace, Mark
 
I didn’t know that Catholic Exchange contained Medjugorje haters articles…so my apologies. 🙂 This is why I made clear in my post by saying “If this report is accurate, and I reiterate if.” As far as the impact, it’s hard to say. There have been so many mixed signals of late that I’d be just speculating, and not very informed speculation at that. And beehumble, May God Bless You as well! 🙂

Peace, Mark
No apologies needed, it’s all good! 🙂

My only concern is it will lead to acrimonious discord and the thread’s being shut down and then there will be no more thoughtful discussion on the new letter.

God bless you (again)!
 
Can’t we as Catholics have the mindset that it is possible that it is true too? I went to Medjugorje when I was 15 and it was a beautiful experience. My father had a complete reversion to the Catholic church through Mary that he believes stems from his visit to Medjugorje. I know we have to wait until the apparitions are completed and the Vatican has says something but it is also something to say that the fruits coming out of Medjugorje are not at all evil…they seem to come from Christ. I hold the position that it is a definite possibility that they are real and if they are not then I will accep tthat as well. All I’m saying is that the fruits I have seen are not those that the Evil one would find joy in.
Thanks for this post. I am happy to hear of your father’s reversion. I have also heard that some people were physically healed of illnesses at Medjugorje. Whether Our Lady truly appeared at Medjugorje or not, your father and others already benefited from having made a pilgrimage to Medjugorje. I don’t know if Holy Mary is truly appearing at Medjugorje, and I will wait for the Church’s official decision. However, in the meantime, you and your family did nothing wrong by visiting Medjugorje, you didn’t disobey any official Church instruction, and I’m happy that you had a wonderful experience there, and that apparently your father received the grace of reversion.

I have never been to Medjugorje, but I hoped to go there. Now, rather unexpectedly, something happened that makes me think I will not go to Medjugorje anytime soon. Namely, Holy Mary has been allegedly appearing at yet another place (I won’t disclose the place, just so that I won’t violate any forum rules), within walking distance of where my grandparents lived, and where my father was born. 😃 So, I will visit this other place, as soon as I can make it happen. My attitude is, I am not going to judge whether Mary is truly appearing at this other place. I will leave that judgment up to the Church’s official authorities. But in the meantime, many priests and laypeople have been making pilgrimages to this “other place”, and some 50 physical cures have been reported. I just watched a youtube video today, with a teenage girl who was miraculously healed from a serious skin condition. She made pilgrimages with her parents, and she was granted a miracle.

For reasons such as these, I have a lot of sympathy for people making pilgrimages to alleged places of apparitions of Our Lady. If the Church officially forbade the people from making pilgrimages to Medjugorje, or to the place near where my father was born, that would be a different story. But the Church hasn’t forbidden it, and people are free to go. Who am I to judge people who are making pilgrimages “just in case”, hoping that Mary is truly appearing at these places? Even at Lourdes or Fatima, people have been flocking there, before the Church officially ruled that the apparitions were authentic. I believe if someone travels to a site like Medjugorje, in a spirit of prayer and with no intent of disobedience to the Church, they will be rewarded. Now, interestingly, at Medjugorje and at the place near my father’s birthplace, some people received rather extraordinary gifts of physical healings. People have been healed from serious diseases including cancer. Whether Holy Mary is appearing at those places or not, the people who have been healed of physical illnesses, as well as those who received the gift of a renewed faith, received some pretty awesome rewards for making the trip and for participating in pious religious activities there.

Also, making pilgrimages to proven (Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe) or alleged (Medjugorje) places of Marian apparitions does not diminish the respect given to the Eucharist. I have visited a number of Church-approved Marian pilgrimage places during my life, many times. In fact, I grew up regularly visiting an official (Church-approved) Marian pilgrimge place, with my family. Our family, just like other pilgrims, would attend confession, Holy Mass, Holy Communion, make the Stations of the Cross, pray the Rosary, and participate in solemn processions, when we visited this Marian shrine. I grew up in a very Marian family. Several family members, including myself, are members of the Confraternity of the Rosary. We pray the Rosary every day, and we love making pilgrimages to Marian shrines. But our Marian devotion does not mean that we are less devoted to Jesus Christ in the Eucharist.

Based on what I know from my own family’s life, I would never dare to accuse the pilgrims to Medjugorje, of ignoring the Eucharist. In fact, I recently met an older lady during Eucharistic adoration, and as we started to talk about various things, she disclosed that she visited Medjugorje several times, starting with the 1980s when it was a dangerous place to visit, for someone from the USA. So, here was someone devoted to the Eucharist, a frequent visitor to perpetual adoration, who was also devoted to Mary and has been to Medjugorje several times.

I also happen to be devoted to Jesus in the Eucharist, I regularly go to Eucharistic adoration, and my Eucharistic devotion coexists just fine with my Marian devotion. Also, when I will visit the alleged Marian apparition site close to my father’s birthplace, I will be participating in a whole-day pilgrimage complete with confession, Holy Mass, Communion, praying the Rosary, and Eucharistic Adoration.
 
MODERATOR NOTE

You are free to discuss the news item here however:

Remember in your discussions that the following is banned at CAF:

Promoting unapproved apparitions and revelations (those not approved by the Church for private or public devotion) or alleged private locutions
No offense, but if you are going to allow people who have non- practical experience with Medjugorje to incessantly bash it and trash it, which can be found multitudes of times in the forums, you surely can’t say people can’t defend it based upon their own experiences. How convenient that would be for all of the naysayers.

As far at the original Commission, there were many apparitions early on where the visionaries came out crying, again, they were very young, and they said they were shown, as in a movie, of events to come and that Our Lady repeatedly was asking for prayer and fasting, for even war can be averted with prayer and fasting. This was said many times before the war and it can be documented by anyone who so wishes to research this. And so, as far as the Bishop’s commission, Bishop Zanic, who fully supported the children until one event in which a visionary told the Bishop Our Lady had said he acted too harshly when he relieved two Franciscan Priests of their priesthood - Bishop Zanic said Our Lady would never reprimand a Bishop so it had to be false. First of all, that statement by the Bishop, if true, is absolutely in error. To say that he Mother of God, sent by Jesus, could not correct a Bishop is completely unbiblical and quite arrogant as well. MOST Importantly, after more than a decade THE VATICAN RULED THE BISHOP ERRED IN RELIEVING THESE PRIESTS AND RESTORED ONE, AS THE OTHER HAD LEFT AND HAD GOTTEN MARRIED. This is a fact and I would like to know what all of you have to say about this. Perhaps this is one of the “Disciplinary” issues the CDF is looking at as well.

I saw an article of an interview with a Franciscan who was on the first Commission by the Bishop, and he said the commission did very little to review the actual events but chose rather to discuss the long ongoing issues with the Franciscans and the Diocese. In that Commission the Bishop pushed to have it declared Not Supernatural, but the Commission OUTVOTED him 18-1 to have it “no supernatural as yet”, which is the present status, and it is normal for ongoing reported apparitions. So as far as the war, after Our Lady had conveyed through the visionaries, over and over, begging for prayer and fasting to avert war, what happens. The Bishop forces a vote and the war IMMEDIATELY started after. So the real question is, WHO IS/ARE THE DISOBEDIENT ONES HERE?
 
No offense, but if you are going to allow people who have non- practical experience with Medjugorje to incessantly bash it and trash it, which can be found multitudes of times in the forums, you surely can’t say people can’t defend it based upon their own experiences. How convenient that would be for all of the naysayers.

As far at the original Commission, there were many apparitions early on where the visionaries came out crying, again, they were very young, and they said they were shown, as in a movie, of events to come and that Our Lady repeatedly was asking for prayer and fasting, for even war can be averted with prayer and fasting. This was said many times before the war and it can be documented by anyone who so wishes to research this. And so, as far as the Bishop’s commission, Bishop Zanic, who fully supported the children until one event in which a visionary told the Bishop Our Lady had said he acted too harshly when he relieved two Franciscan Priests of their priesthood - Bishop Zanic said Our Lady would never reprimand a Bishop so it had to be false. First of all, that statement by the Bishop, if true, is absolutely in error. To say that he Mother of God, sent by Jesus, could not correct a Bishop is completely unbiblical and quite arrogant as well. MOST Importantly, after more than a decade THE VATICAN RULED THE BISHOP ERRED IN RELIEVING THESE PRIESTS AND RESTORED ONE, AS THE OTHER HAD LEFT AND HAD GOTTEN MARRIED. This is a fact and I would like to know what all of you have to say about this. Perhaps this is one of the “Disciplinary” issues the CDF is looking at as well.

I saw an article of an interview with a Franciscan who was on the first Commission by the Bishop, and he said the commission did very little to review the actual events but chose rather to discuss the long ongoing issues with the Franciscans and the Diocese. In that Commission the Bishop pushed to have it declared Not Supernatural, but the Commission OUTVOTED him 18-1 to have it “no supernatural as yet”, which is the present status, and it is normal for ongoing reported apparitions. So as far as the war, after Our Lady had conveyed through the visionaries, over and over, begging for prayer and fasting to avert war, what happens. The Bishop forces a vote and the war IMMEDIATELY started after. So the real question is, WHO IS/ARE THE DISOBEDIENT ONES HERE?
Your comments about Bishop Zanic, whose duty it was to discern the authenticity of the alleged apparitions is disrespectful.
 
Bishop Zanic, who fully supported the children until one event in which a visionary told the Bishop Our Lady had said he acted too harshly when he relieved two Franciscan Priests of their priesthood - Bishop Zanic said Our Lady would never reprimand a Bishop so it had to be false. First of all, that statement by the Bishop, if true, is absolutely in error. To say that he Mother of God, sent by Jesus, could not correct a Bishop is completely unbiblical and quite arrogant as well. MOST Importantly, after more than a decade THE VATICAN RULED THE BISHOP ERRED IN RELIEVING THESE PRIESTS AND RESTORED ONE, AS THE OTHER HAD LEFT AND HAD GOTTEN MARRIED. This is a fact and I would like to know what all of you have to say about this. Perhaps this is one of the “Disciplinary” issues the CDF is looking at as well.
I appreciate that this is slightly off topic but I feel it adds to the discussion of the news Item, its background and historical context. The Bishop of a local diocese has no power to laicise a religious priest(i.e. a Franciscan) even if they work in his diocese, what he did do however was to restrict their ministry in his diocese, which he as bishop has full power to do, and which they promptly ignored.

It was only one of the many reasons Bishop Zanic gave for not believing in the veracity of the apparitions. The case you mention refers to one of one of these priests, who due to his disobedience, was by an order of the Holy Father, thrown out of his Franciscan religious order by his Superior General, dispensed from his vows and suspended “a divinis”. He did not obey this order and he continued to celebrate Mass, distribute the sacraments etc. until sometime after this when he left religious life for reasons unrelated to the Bishops intervention. Bishop Zanic’s point was that Our Lady mentioned 13 times that he(this priest) is innocent and that the bishop is wrong, which was not the case objectively speaking. The pertinent information can be found on the english section of the website of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno.
 
I don’t see it so much as a “bombshell” as a reiteration that people, including priests and Catholic faithful, may not take part in conferences which appear to take the authenticity of the apparitions as an established fact.

However, it could be a precursor to a final report. It seems to me that too many people have taken these apparitions to be authentic despite warnings from the local bishop in charge.
My thoughts as well - a precursor. From the document " …all should accept the declaration, dated april 1991 “ on the basis of the research that has been done, it is not possible to state that there were apparitions or supernatural revelations”. I take that to mean that they are going by the previous bishops’ ruling and out of the vatican’s hands. Maybe the Vatican wants to gently let down the supporters of the Medj. phenomenon and not be discouraged.
 
Here’s something interesting - Medjugorje was spared from war damage - quote from ewtn.com/library/MARY/DECORMIR.HTM :

Pope John Paul II’s Opinion

In line with Roman Catholic tradition, Pope John Paul II considers the Medjugorje phenomenon an issue for the local hierarchy. It is, however, common knowledge, that the Pope is sympathetic to the Marian site. In a meeting with Bishop Paul Hnilica, the Pope reportedly said: “If I were not the Pope, I would probably have visited Medjugorje by now.” During a meeting with the Superior General of the Franciscan Order, the Holy Father asked: "All around Medjugorje bombs have been falling, and yet Medjugorje itself was never damaged. Is this not perhaps a miracle of God?"

This article was taken from the November 1996 issue of “Inside the Vatican.”

(bold emphasis mine)

I have learned that the messages (whether these are truly from Our Lady or not) asked people to pray and fast, because through prayer and fasting even wars can be averted. The people of Medjugorje prayed and fasted, and their lives and property were spared from destruction.

Whatever the Church’s final decision will be, I find it so wonderful that the villagers of Medjugorje received this beautiful gift of being spared from the war. A gift that Blessed John Paul II said about, “Is this not perhaps a miracle of God?”
 
From the document " …all should accept the declaration, dated april 1991 “ on the basis of the research that has been done, it is not possible to state that there were apparitions or supernatural revelations”. I take that to mean that they are going by the previous bishops’ ruling and out of the vatican’s hands. Maybe the Vatican wants to gently let down the supporters of the Medj. phenomenon and not be discouraged.
To to be fair, the letter also points out that the CDF is still investigating.

God bless you.
 
To to be fair, the letter also points out that the CDF is still investigating.

God bless you.
Yes, to be fair it does state that. But look at it a little differently. “…is in the process of investigating certain doctrinal and** disciplinary **aspects of the phenomenon of medj. For this reason … all should accept the declaration from the bishops …” In other words, the vatican has not gotten any further along than the initial bishop(s) ruling, i.e. they stand by the bishops. I still stand by my previous statement, that they are letting down gently catholics who put so much emphasis in this.

From Medjugore Today TV :
“With a final decision expected next year, the Vatican Commission on Medjugorje will have their next meeting in two weeks, a major Italian newspaper reports. Il Messaggero confirms previous leaks saying there is neither evidence for recognizing nor for condemning the apparitions.”

It is also unprecedented for the Vatican to take the step of saying an apparition under investigation is unworthy of public acclaim.
How can the Vatican state that there will be a “final decision” next year if the “messages” continue as we speak?
 
I’m not bolstering it or saying that it is absolutely true, I’m just saying the probability of it being true is just the same as the probability of it not being true…
That is factually incorrect.

In 1997, Bishop Peric stated that what was occurring at Medjugorje was not from God:

“On the basis of the serious study of the case by 30 of our ‘studiosi’, on my episcopal experience of five years in the Diocese, on the scandalous disobedience that surrounds the phenomenon, on the lies that are at times put into the mouth of the ‘Madonna’, on the unusual repetition of ‘messages’ of over 16 years, on the strange way that the ‘spiritual directors’ of the so-called ‘visionaries’ accompany them through the world making propaganda of them, on the practice that the ‘Madonna’ appears at the ‘fiat’ of the ‘visionaries’, my conviction and position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate [the supernaturality is not proven] but also the other formula constat de non supernaturalitate the non-supernaturality is proven] of the apparitions or revelations of Medjugorje.

There are only three possible sources for any alleged apparition or private revelation:
  1. Natural (Man)
  2. Preternatural (Demons)
  3. Supernatural (God)
Bishop Peric ruled out the Supernatural as a cause. That only leaves two options.

On another occasion, Bishop Peric became more explicit:

“The numerous absurd messages, lies, falsehoods and disobedience associated from the beginning with the events and ‘so paritions’ of Medjugorje, all refute every claim of authenticity.”

Bishop Zanic also had this to say:

“The majority of the pious public has naively fallen victim of the great propaganda. These people themselves have become the greatest propaganda for the events. They do not even stop to think that the truth has been hidden by deliberate falsehoods.”
 
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