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blaskoman
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Why hasn’t the Vatican ruled in bishop Zanic’ favor yet? Sounds like the bishop is in the know
Instructions Issued on Medjugorje by CDF via Apostolic Nuncio
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edward_george
Guest
Because normally in situations like this the Vatican doesn’t rule. Typically the local Bishop investigates an alleged apparition, and more or less has the final word. That this has continued, even after the local Bishop (two of them actually) have investigated and ruled, and furthermore that it has become a worldwide phenomenon are reasons why this has even been kicked to the Vatican in the first place. And they’ve actually only been looking at it for a relatively short time, at least as far as these things go in Rome. Some speculate that the recent posturing from the CDF as well as comments of the Holy Father indicate that a ruling is forthcoming in the near future, but who can say what the timeline will be. But they’re working on it, and trying to do a thorough job.
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blaskoman
Guest
I disagree with your assessment, in part, that the Vatican has undertaken a commission because medujgorje has become a worldwide phenomenon. The first commission by bishop zanic was not taken as authoritative because it was deemed a flawed investigation. Please provide me evidence to the contrary. The current commission is now the fourth one investigating the apparitions
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dshix
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Uh, no. You have the burden of proof. You need to prove that Bishop Zanic’s position was not confirmed; you can’t tell us that we have to prove it was. Thus far no evidence has been provided to show that he was overridden by any higher authority.
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Corki
Guest
I think that is questionable. The Vatican has never moved to overturn the decision of the local ordinary. Regardless of the direction of the Vatican commission, until a determination is issued, the Bishops decision is the authoritative one. The authority of the Bishop is not determined by the quality of the investigation.
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MicheleLMD
Guest
When the Vatican investigates Marian apparitions, they are very prudent and cautious about declaring something valid. I don’t think Fatima would have been approved if there had not been an indisputable miracle. It’s not something they can declare with total certainty. Most remain undetermined until the prophecy or messages come true. Luckily the messages are usually well documented so later it can be verified that the seer predicted accurately the event.
I have wondered about some of the rejected apparitions. Such as Our Lady of Emmitsburg, the seer Gianna Sullivan received messages in late 80’s, early 90’s. I watched a documentary on her from years ago. Watch her predictions, I’ll post a video below. Eerily many of these prophecies have happened in the last few years. Maybe it should be reevaluated.
youtu.be/v9Q_VimK7FQ
The great warning is a common prophecy. Garabandal, Medjugorgie, and even Saints have given this message. I actually believe in the Marian apparitions. I will continue to believe in them. Especially Fatima, Lourdes and LaSalette.
I have wondered about some of the rejected apparitions. Such as Our Lady of Emmitsburg, the seer Gianna Sullivan received messages in late 80’s, early 90’s. I watched a documentary on her from years ago. Watch her predictions, I’ll post a video below. Eerily many of these prophecies have happened in the last few years. Maybe it should be reevaluated.
youtu.be/v9Q_VimK7FQ
The great warning is a common prophecy. Garabandal, Medjugorgie, and even Saints have given this message. I actually believe in the Marian apparitions. I will continue to believe in them. Especially Fatima, Lourdes and LaSalette.
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zab
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My quick Google search shows an early connection to Medjugorje as is often the case with many of these so-called visionaries around the country. If the Emmitsburg one has been rejected as you have said, then you shouldn’t be promoting it. We should be listening to the guidance of those entrusted to determine their authenticity.
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JimG
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Fatima, Lourdes, and La Salette have been approved. The others you mention have not been.
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MicheleLMD
Guest
I don’t think she was officially declared false but basically put on hold and wait and see status. I think part of the reason they are questioning is that the prophecies require great faith.
The prophecy of the great warning, I see this in scripture.
Apocalypse 14:6-7
And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth and over every nation and tribe and tongue and people: Saying with a loud voice: Fear the Lord and give him honour, because the hour of his judgment is come. And adore ye him that made heaven and earth, the sea and the fountains of waters.
Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations: and then shall the consummation come.
The miraculous sign &
The 2 suns,
Luke 21:25
And there shall be signs in the sun and in the moon and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, by reason of the confusion of the roaring of the sea, and of the waves:
It doesn’t necessarily have to be 2 suns but a second bright object that looks like the sun. For example in the tribulation the waters turn to blood.
Apocalypse 11:6
These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: And they have power over waters, to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
It might be red in color such as a high salt content or algae, or silt, dye from a factory, or fish blood.
blogs.nature.com/news/2012/09/why-has-the-yangtze-river-turned-red.html
m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/1288924
m.huffpost.com/us/entry/1773202
abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=14213650
mobile.wnd.com/2013/11/video-dutch-water-turns-blood-red/
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_rain_in_Kerala
See it doesn’t have to be actual blood although I think the Texas lake was fish blood. So 2 suns could just be a comet or some other bright object.
the 3 days of darkness.
Apocalypse 6:12-13
And I saw, when he had opened the sixth seal: and behold there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair: and the whole moon became as blood. And the stars from heaven fell upon the earth, as the fig tree casteth its green figs when it is shaken by a great wind.
No stars might make it pretty dark.
I’m just saying that the Bishop who makes the determination is not infallible. I often wonder if they are true visionaries and God tells them to give a message would they not obey God over, well pretty much anyone?
In the Church approved message of LaSalette, Our Lady said, Rome would become the seat of antichrist. So someday this may occur. The Catechism speaks of The Church following our Lord In His passion. Just as Jesus was scourged, crowned with thorns, crucified & died so too will the Church follow. But as our Lord did rise so too will the Church. It will only appear dead. I assume that will not occur until the tribulation. But we should always be ready. No one knows the hour. Below is a reference from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. A link to the whole page is at the bottom.
The Church’s ultimate trial
675 Before Christ’s second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.574 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth575 will unveil the “mystery of iniquity” in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.576
676 The Antichrist’s deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the “intrinsically perverse” political form of a secular messianism.578
677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.579 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God’s victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.580 God’s triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.581
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a7.htm
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MicheleLMD
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I answered this more completely on a prior post. Basically since the Church has to be super careful to announce anything a miracle or of miraculous origin, it’s hard to say what will be approved and when. Until then we are free to believe in the Marian apparitions. I personally can believe in devotion to the Blessed Mother. Even if a Bishop says it’s suspect due to the Extraodinary claims.
I believe in Garabandal and so did St Padre Pio. Mother Angelica, foundress of EWTN believes in Garabandal & Medjugorjie. At least I am in good company.Yes we can personally believe in them but with the understanding it may be proven false. We wouldn’t truly find out until we died so I guess I’ll just believe. The messages relay the need to pray and receive confession and Eucharist often to repent and do penance, how can that possibly hurt anyone?
You can read my reply to the other post for a more complete answer.
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Miriam1947
Guest
The one apparition that strikes me as completely true is Our Lady of Guadalupe.
This is the only apparition which gave us a portrait of our Blessed Mother. Every other apparition relies on description from the ‘visionary’.
This is the only apparition which gave us a portrait of our Blessed Mother. Every other apparition relies on description from the ‘visionary’.
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zab
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This strong warning statement from the Archdiocese as a result of their investigation is more than a “wait and see”. Obedience is a BIG factor in determining authenticity. Disobedience seems to be common not only at Medjugorge but also in the so-called apparitions that have sprung up in United States after someone has made a trip to Medugorje. If you read their history you will find a connection to Medjugorje.
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/misc_khaki/progress.gif[/RIGHT]
The Archdiocese of Baltimore issued a strong statement against Gianna Sullivan in the year 2000. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith issued a decree declaring - Constat de non supernaturalitate - Letter from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith- archbalt.org/news-events/decrees/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&PageID=6477
Decrees from the Archdiocese of Baltimore on Gianna Sullivan:
archbalt.org/news-events/decrees/index.cfm
In 2008, Archbishop Edwin F. O’Brien issued a Pastoral Advisory regarding Gianna Sullivan. He strongly cautioned the faithful that the apparitions have not been recognized by the Church. He stated that he strongly cautioned Gianna Sullivan "not to communicate in any manner whatsoever, written or spoken, electronic or printed, personally or through another in any church, public oratory, chapel or any other place or locale, public or private. within the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Baltimore any information of any type relating to or containing messages or locutions allegedly received from the Virgin Mother of God."
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MicheleLMD
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I think the video and messages I watched/read were distributed prior to 2000 so at the time it had not been issued. A strong letter may very well be warranted at that time but did you listen to her predictions? There will be Massive Fish Die Offs, this is a strange prediction. Huge corporate mergers? Yes, I think in the past few years you have seen these come to pass. Every few weeks I see another ‘thousands of fish dead’ or 'dozens of dolphins washed up on shore" headline, dead star fish just this month.
Our Lady of LaSalette said, there will be a frightful hail of beasts. We have seen this too. Birds by the thousands falling for no apparent reason. Dead cattle…
Why would you just ignore a message? If it doesn’t come to pass in your lifetime, great. But if you begin to see these very things, you better know what the blessed Mother said and what we are supposed to do. That’s just my opinion. If Gianna got her information from Medjugorgie, then at least she is spreading the message. If Medjugorgie is false, well at least it got more people to pray and remember to receive the sacraments often. But what if they were both true? What if we didn’t listen to a message from heaven? There are MANY who have received miracles after a trip to these apparition sites. I would not condemn them. Let them be proven false by God if that is His will. Otherwise let people believe in Our Blessed Mother’s Protection.
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zab
Guest
I have no interest in listening to her predictions after listening to the warnings from the Archbishop of Baltimore and the decree from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.
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zab
Guest
First of all, I have no interest in even listening to messages in which the Church has issued a statement of great warning against them and issued a decree against.
Second, I DO believe in the powerful intercession of our Blessed Mother. And the rosary is my favorite prayer. I believe that we should be living every day as if it is our last, and not allow ourselves to be controlled by fear from the message coming from prophesies, especially those coming from unapproved apparitions. Nor should we be spending more time with “the Gospa” than with Jesus. It seems that so many followers are looking to see a sign, looking to see Mary. But they refuse to believe the sign that has been given to them coming from those whose authority it is to discern these things. I believe and respect the information that has come to us from approved apparitions such as Fatima and Lourdes, Guadalupe, yet I do not even let those be the main focus of my Faith. True devotion to Mary always leads to Jesus.
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Nacho45
Guest
Is there an update on this? I ask because I just received my first rosary as a gift and its a Medugorje rosary. I don’t want to use it if its a big no-no.
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Joe_5859
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A rosary is a rosary regardless of where it was made. So I would think it would still be okay to use.
But, no, there is no update that I have heard. Until I see a press release straight from the Vatican, I’m going to take most any other new information as speculation.
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EasterBeagle
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Vatican Insider Magazine ran an article on January 19, 2014 that Pope Benedict’s Papal Medjugorje Commission is recommending an approval to Pope Francis. The day after the article appeared, the Vatican purged all negative information and warnings concerning Medjugorje (including this topic letter by the CDF) off Vatican.va.
vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/medjugorje-ruini-31362
The findings of the Papal Commission specifically target the three key contentions espoused by the Bishop of Mostar (Bishop Ratko Peric), who condemned the Medjugorje Apparitions on the grounds of being a hoax, that the Visionaries were using tricks and the Apparitions bore no fruit. The Papal Commission expressly opposes each of these particular counts, citing that the Marian Apparitions are “no hoax”, there is “no proof of any tricks” and they exhibit “Spiritual fruits in a significant way”.
vaticaninsider.lastampa.it/en/the-vatican/detail/articolo/medjugorje-ruini-31362
The findings of the Papal Commission specifically target the three key contentions espoused by the Bishop of Mostar (Bishop Ratko Peric), who condemned the Medjugorje Apparitions on the grounds of being a hoax, that the Visionaries were using tricks and the Apparitions bore no fruit. The Papal Commission expressly opposes each of these particular counts, citing that the Marian Apparitions are “no hoax”, there is “no proof of any tricks” and they exhibit “Spiritual fruits in a significant way”.
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gilliam
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The letter was a letter from the Papal Nuncio to the US Catholic Bishops. I don’t think it ever was on Vatican.va (such correspondence normally is not posted there.)
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