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Jon_S_1
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Pretty much every weekday mass
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Edmundus1581
Guest
Good for you!
I love the singing when people who don’t sing well join in enthusiastically!
As soon as a few opt out others start to think “Maybe I shouldn’t sing, I’m embarrassing myself…” and then it’s half the congregation gone.
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Cat
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I agree with this.
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Edmundus1581
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Thankyou. That’s very interesting. In other threads we have discussed the need to encourage more people to learn to play the organ, and to encourage organists to play. My opinion is that the organist is the most valuable person there, apart from the priest, and that we should be paying them in order to show that we appreciate their services, and to encourage others to come forward.
The way things are going we won’t have an organist at 95% of Masses in 10 years time.
A well played keyboard or guitar can certainly be used to lead congregational singing, and it is a LOT better than no music at all, or some of the alternatives…, but nothing compares to the organ.
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Cat
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I think the reason why keyboards are chosen instead of organs or pianos is the cost.
Even a cheap electronic organ will cost at least twenty thousand dollars. I have a twenty-year-old organ in my home, a gift from my brother, that cost only thirty-five hundred dollars.
A pipe organ will cost much, much more, around seventy-thousand.
A good piano will cost at least five thousand dollars, and more for a grand, which is the best choice for a large hall (the nave).
Maintaining a pipe organ or an electronic organ is quite costly and a never-ending task.
Same for a piano. Most acoustic pianos in churches or halls must be given a “drink” of water throughout the week or they will go bad.
But a good keyboard is so cheap and so easy to maintain.
I think a lot of pastors and their parishes struggle with their consciences and eventually make the decision that the seventy-thousand or twenty-thousand or five thousand dollars plus maintenance monies would be better spent elsewhere. I think it would be awfully difficult to drive by the local rescue mission or half-way house and think, “We could have done so much for these poor people–did we really need that pipe organ?”
After all, the Lord Jesus actually commanded us to take care of the poor, but never did He specify “pipe organ” instead of “keyboard.”
And then consider how few people actually know how to play the pipe organ, electronic organ, or piano well. In many parishes, the pipe organ languishes under dust, because there is no one available to play it. This must make it even harder for the pastor or the people to drive by that rescue mission.
Don’t get the wrong idea–I love the pipe organ, and I’ve been taking lessons for two and half years now (primarily due to the influence of CAF!). I still can’t play it well enough to play in church, but I play the piano very well and I DO play that in church whenever I am needed. I would love to see a revival of interest in pipe organ, and a crowd of children rushing to sign up for lessons! But honestly, in my heart of hearts, I don’t think it’s likely to happen. I think that most parishes, other than the big city parishes near universities, will eventually not hear the organ very often once their current organists have passed on. Sigh.
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robwar
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exactly.
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robwar
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So when the organ was broken, Silent Night was written for guitar to be played in it’s place.
I guess based on what some are posting here, that guitar song should have never seen the light of day at a Christmas Mass.
The guidelines quoted can be interpreted in a number of ways. There are bigger problems on our hands that if some drum was used with other instruments at Mass. This is just a matter of taste.
I guess based on what some are posting here, that guitar song should have never seen the light of day at a Christmas Mass.
The guidelines quoted can be interpreted in a number of ways. There are bigger problems on our hands that if some drum was used with other instruments at Mass. This is just a matter of taste.
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4Squarebaby
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However even with mandated attendance those little matter of taste will determine the exact location where one attends. For some it will mean driving away to reach an area where the 1906 cultural norm is not enforced.
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Cavaille-Coll
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Pipe organs generally only require tuning annually, which can cost a few hundred dollars depending on the size of the organ. Electronic organs might require service every ten years or so. I once bought a 30 year old Allen organ from a Mormon church for $400 which was in perfect working shape. Where there’s a will, there’s a way.
Regarding “Silent Night,” the guitar was only used because the organ was broken. To this day, many German and Austrian parishes still play it on guitars and zithers. However, pipe organs are found in even the smallest chapels in those countries and remain the primary instrument for use at Mass. Electronic organs are generally only used until funds have been raised for a pipe organ, after which they become practice instruments.
Regarding “Silent Night,” the guitar was only used because the organ was broken. To this day, many German and Austrian parishes still play it on guitars and zithers. However, pipe organs are found in even the smallest chapels in those countries and remain the primary instrument for use at Mass. Electronic organs are generally only used until funds have been raised for a pipe organ, after which they become practice instruments.
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Edmundus1581
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Is this a typo, or did you really mean “not enforced”? As it is the norm not to enforce the 1906 (or 1958,… or 1968) regulations, one usually doesn’t have to travel far to find a parish which suits. On the other hand, it’s the people who want traditional music (and liturgy) who have to travel.
Even so, lovers of traditional music should be aware that there are many Catholics who actively dislike it. Even amongst daily Mass goers and older Catholics there are many who react adversely to popular traditional hymns, such as How Great Thou Art, let alone more “high brow” hymns such as Ave Verum Corpus or Come Down O Love Divine.
It never ceases to surprise and discourage me.
There are also some who love such music, and miss it terribly… yet our voices don’t seem to matter.
In my own parish, I have heard the following hymns only once in the last five years:* Firmly I Believe and Truly,* and Soul of My Saviour. Both times were when I had an opportunity to prepare the hymn list, and just went ahead and did what I wanted. Some parishioners responded enthusiastically, but the “powers” disapproved.
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april32010
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pnewton
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Thank you for the clarification. I thought it was a Christian hymn. I don’t use it myself, by I do use the Breastplate sometimes.
Nice post.
I do not think any particular music is a problem as long as it is not an immersion in one thing, at least for the average parishioner. When visiting, the only time I come away disappointed in the music is when it is all one thing or another. I can see why folks get sick and tired of contemporary music (we all know the composers) when that seems to be all they hear week in/week out. I only mention that because I think that is the most common form of one-note music today. I do not think a few people disliking some songs that are more “high brow,” as you say, would be an issue unless that is all they hear.
I really do believe variety is the key for most parishioners. For me, that means almost all new music I have introduced has been on the more traditional side to help keep the balance even, as we had pretty much sunk into a one genre slump. It seems to be working over the years pretty well. I wish we didn’t have to rely so heavily on guitars. Over the years we have had two pianists that have come and gone. We just don’t have the talent in our parish, at least that is willing to play.
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M-Dent
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A poem by Eleanor Farjeon. The music from a traditional Bunessan-Gaelic melody. And your point being?
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pnewton
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I believe the point was that the expectation of hearing something totally secular based on hearing “Morning Has Broken” seems forced. It would be like, “I heard* How Great Thou Art* at Mass. I kept thinking Achy Breaky Heart would be next.” It seems somewhat disconnected.
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27lw
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Oh dear.
Does anyone know that hymns are a 3rd or 4th choice for most points in the Mass when they are used? We’re supposed to be hearing “the propers”, which are chants (yes, chants, GASP) set to music by the church.
It’s kind of like not doing the prescribed prayers for the day, because the priest likes something else (maybe “The Shack”, or Dr. Seuss, etc.)
Also, in terms of instruments, I like to imagine if a beautiful painting of Renaissance angels would include, say, electric guitar, or bongos. No. Voices, a small portative organ, string instruments, yes.
Does anyone know that hymns are a 3rd or 4th choice for most points in the Mass when they are used? We’re supposed to be hearing “the propers”, which are chants (yes, chants, GASP) set to music by the church.
It’s kind of like not doing the prescribed prayers for the day, because the priest likes something else (maybe “The Shack”, or Dr. Seuss, etc.)
Also, in terms of instruments, I like to imagine if a beautiful painting of Renaissance angels would include, say, electric guitar, or bongos. No. Voices, a small portative organ, string instruments, yes.
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M-Dent
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Ah. My point being connotation.
I was trying to share this in simple terms highlighting the instrumentation used and the song selection from the folk Mass from a parish (mid 1980’s). At that point of time, in that place within that culture, that song was associated with the cool tracks from Cat Stevens. In the same way another folk song often sung at Mass – the Pete Seeger song, "Turn! Turn! Turn! (to Everything There Is a Season) was tied to the Byrds’.
I would agree that this does go beyond some peoples overall outlook on liturgical settings.
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clem456
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Small point…
This sort of discussion is not about doctrine. It’s about culture, taste, Church discipline, but not doctrine. The tone of the liturgy in any particular culture, and the use of instruments and music, changes with times and cultures. But the substance of the liturgy does not.
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pnewton
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Yes, I know of the ranking, but the Church does not use the word “supposed”. Bishops can do as they think best.
It is not like that at all, because hymns are a legitimate option, unless you are referring to private devotional prayers, then it is like that, say, using some “seussian” Marian prayer instead of Hail Mary, which would be fine.
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catholictiger
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yes you are correct thank you my mistake
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