Intelligent Design, Edward Feser's views

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Even within the theory of evolution, a great style of science fiction exists. Richard Dawkins’ selfish gene is a classic example of science fiction. The great Jacques Monod wrote sentences that he himself would certainly have inserted in his work just as science fiction. I quote: “The emergence of tetrapod vertebrates … derives its origin from the fact that a primitive fish ‘chose’ to go and explore the land, on which, however, he was unable to move except by hopping awkwardly and thus creating, as a result of behavioral modification, the selective pressure thanks to which the sturdy limbs of tetrapods would have developed. Among the descendants of this daring explorer, of this Magellan of evolution, some can run at a speed of more than 70 miles per hour …” (quoted according to the Italian edition Chance and Necessity, Milan 2001, p. 117ff) .

Benedict XVI’s Letter to Atheist http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/full-text-of-benedict-xvis-letter-to-atheist-odifreddi
 
Pope Benedict XVI

…The more we know of the universe the more profoundly we are struck by a Reason whose ways we can only contemplate with astonishment. In pursuing them we can see anew that creating Intelligence to whom we owe our own reason. Albert Einstein once said that in the laws of nature “there is revealed such a superior Reason that everything significant which has arisen out of human thought and arrangement is, in comparison with it, the merest empty reflection.” In what is most vast, in the world of heavenly bodies, we see revealed a powerful reason that holds the universe together. And we are penetrating ever deeper into what is smallest, into the cell and into the primordial units of life; here, too, we discover a reason that astounds us, such that we must say with Saint Bonaventure: “Whoever does not see here is blind. Whoever does not hear here is deaf. And whoever does not begin to adore here and to praise the creating Intelligence is dumb.”

Jacques Monod, who rejects as unscientific every kind of faith in God and who thinks that the world originated out of an interplay of chance and necessity, tells in the very work in which he attempts summarily to portray and justify his view of the world that, after attending the lectures which afterward appeared in book form, François Mauriac is supposed to have said: *“What this professor wants to afflict on us is far more unbelievable than what we poor Christians were ever expected to believe."
*
Monod does not dispute this. His thesis is that the entire ensemble of nature has arisen out of errors and dissonances. He cannot help but say himself that such a conception is in fact absurd. But, according to him, the scientific method demands that a question not be permitted to which the answer would have to be God. One can only say that a method of this sort is pathetic. God himself shines through the reasonableness of his creation. Physics and biology, and the natural sciences in general, have given us a new and unheard-of creation account with vast new images, which let us recognize the face of the Creator and which make us realize once again that at the very beginning and foundation of all being there is a creating Intelligence…”
 
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“It is not the case that in the expanding universe, at a late stage, in some tiny corner of the cosmos, there evolved randomly some species of living being capable of reasoning and of trying to find rationality within creation, or to bring rationality into it. If man were merely a random product of evolution in some place on the margins of the universe, then his life would make no sense or might even be a chance of nature. But no, Reason is there at the beginning: creative, divine Reason.” Pope Benedict XVI
Where has a Catholic that accepts evolution in this thread said evolution means meaningless? Your arguments aren’t falling on deaf ears, but tired ears. It’s like you’re going to a PTA meeting and saying, “Mathematics is important. Removing abacuses from the classroom is bad because without math, how will our children function in the world.” And the people at the meeting are saying, “We already get that math is important. We just feel calculators are a better tool for math.” To which you keep replying, “But math is important.”

Except for Bradski, I think all the people in this thread have a theistic belief. Most of us are also Catholic. And with Bradski, he’s not even saying evolution disproves God.

There was an interesting debate earlier in this thread about how you can’t choose the winning hand after the cards are dealt and then marvel at it. It was an interesting point. But if we know that Man was the ‘winning hand’ so to speak before the cards of evolution were dealt, I marvel even more at God’s work.
 
There was an interesting debate earlier in this thread about how you can’t choose the winning hand after the cards are dealt and then marvel at it. It was an interesting point. But if we know that Man was the ‘winning hand’ so to speak before the cards of evolution were dealt, I marvel even more at God’s work.
Man was not dealt anything. He is the total expression of God’s love. He was not an afterthought.

So we have two choices:

To believe this total expression of God’s love came through death, destruction, long ages, chance, unguided and blind processes and then supernaturally conferred the preternatural gifts

or

He expressed His total love immediately in the special creation of Adam and then Eve with the preternatural gifts.
 
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Man was not dealt anything. He is the total expression of God’s love. He was not an afterthought.
You’re still getting hung on math being important when all I’m trying to do is use calculators instead of abacuses.
 
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There was an interesting debate earlier in this thread about how you can’t choose the winning hand after the cards are dealt and then marvel at it. It was an interesting point. But if we know that Man was the ‘winning hand’ so to speak before the cards of evolution were dealt, I marvel even more at God’s work.
Man was not dealt anything. He is the total expression of God’s love. He was not an afterthought.

So we have two choices:

To believe this total expression of God’s love came through death, destruction, long ages, chance, unguided and blind processes

or

He expressed His total love immediately in the special creation of Adam and then Eve.
Ye gods, you said earlier that you are not claiming that evolution denies God yet here you are confirming that very fact. You have just given an either/or. Either evolution or God.

You are a bible literalist. Maybe you thought the recent film about Noah was a doumentary. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if you believed in talking snakes…
 
Ye gods, you said earlier that you are not claiming that evolution denies God yet here you are confirming that very fact. You have just given an either/or. Either evolution or God.

You are a bible literalist. Maybe you thought the recent film about Noah was a doumentary. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if you believed in talking snakes…
Huh?

I understand the Bible literally as what the author intended to convey.

Literal - it is raining cats and dogs - it is raining hard
Literalistic it is raining cats and dogs - cats and dogs are falling from the sky
 
It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if you believed in talking snakes…
What would prevent God from speaking through a “serpent”?

The devil spoke through a serpent. The devil speaks through humans possessed. He will even give his name.
 
Literal: We are guilty of original sin in the form of a first couple, Adam and Eve. We are an evolved species formed by God using the natural laws that He put in place
Literalist: We are directly descended from a couple of people that lived in a garden. He was made from dust and she was made from a rib. And there was an apple and a talking snake as well!

I mean, who on this forum can take you seriously.
 
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Literal: We are guilty of original sin in the form of a first couple, Adam and Eve. We are an evolved species formed by God using the natural laws that He put in place
Literalist: We are directly descended from a couple of people that lived in a garden. He was made from dust and she was made from a rib. And there was an apple and a talking snake as well!
If Genesis was a stand alone book that fell from the sky yesterday that may apply.

The fact is that there is support in other books of the Bible, oral Tradition protected by the Holy Spirit that was the constant and firm understanding until a few hundred years ago.

Was the Holy Spirit sleeping all this time and not protecting us from error? He just woke up around Darwin’s time?
 
Given the fairly well-accepted notion that our cells are made out of smaller, formerly independent units (mitochondria, at least), and that we can point to complete living organisms that don’t have nuclei in their cells, the notion that every part of the cell had to be in place from the beginning is demonstrably wrong.
I don’t think you’ve made your point. Every part of a living cell has to be in sufficient harmony, manage in spite of whatever maladies and dysfunctions it may have, in order for it to exist and procreate, while carrying out its part in the greater environment.

I take it you are familiar with at least the basics of organic chemistry and cellular biology.

As you would be aware, most eukaryotes, cells whose DNA is arranged in chromosomes contained in a nucleus, have mitochondria. There is a single cell creature which is considered to have lost the capacity to form them and others whose mitchondria have a different form. These latter organisms, I would agree demostrate the effects of random genetic mutation - speciation through gene deletion.

To summarize what we are talking about: mitochondria provide the chemical energy to power cellular metabolism. This is their specialized function - the production of of ATP, which is then hydrolysed to ADP, thereby powering cellular metabolism. The Kreb’s Cycle describes the process by which ATP is converted from ADP through what is termed aerobic respiration, utilizing oxygen and producing the by-products of carbon dioxide and water. A description of the superficial aspects of what we know to be involved, the structures and processes, which Google searches will only begin to scratch the surface, would require a rather extensive textbook.

It boggles the mind that there are people who believe that this just happened and was not guided by an organizing influence beyond that which governs basic electrochemical reactions. Since most of my many decades of life has been spent in pursuit of such knowledge, specifically focussed on its practical application, this subject is of great interest to me. It is quite remarkable how from a little here and a little there, it is possible to gain insights, reformulating one’s perspective. In this spirit, I would be interested in hearing how you picture the formation of the first mitochondrium.

It is enlightening, to break down the various elements of statements such as the quote above and enter into the sorts of relationships that exist between material events, what they actually are in themselves and what influences act upon them. While it usually ends up as a revelation of the limitations of our cognitive abilities and knowledge base, with the help of prayer, these sorts of mental exercises can reveal to ourselves how it is that we have come to see the world as we do. We are typically granted a certain humilty having to face our individual and collective limitations.
 
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@Buffalo for sake of argument, what evidence would convince you that evolution in the process by which today’s life came about?
 
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for sake of argument, what evidence would convince you that evolution in the process by which today’s life came about?
Given the trajectory of modern science I cannot think of any. There is now too much to overcome as we learn more about life.

for sake of argument, what evidence would convince you that design is the process by which today’s life came about?
 
@Buffalo for sake of argument, what evidence would convince you that evolution in the process by which today’s life came about?
I would believe if I could actually see something transitioning right now, in real life, like a new fin or a new feather growing out of a animal we have today.
 
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for sake of argument, what evidence would convince you that design is the process by which today’s life came about?
Design, in this context, is not a process, and certainly not a process by which life can ‘come about’. I think you mean the instantaneous creation of a ‘kind’ of organism. If you could find an organism, modern or fossilised, is not similar to any preceding fossil organism, then evolutionists would have to look closely to see if it really didn’t have any forebears. This will only really be possible after the Cambrian explosion, before which there are very few fossils because the organisms were softbodied and didn’t leave any. Not finding a fossil when no fossil would be expected would not, of course, be evidence of spontaneous creation.
 
How about not limiting ourselves to the scant fossil record.

What if we look for signatures of design in living systems?
 
I would believe if I could actually see something transitioning right now, in real life, like a new fin or a new feather growing out of a animal we have today.
I doubt it, you’ll just reject it. First of all you’d need to know what a given feature will be a long time from now. A flipper could be a wing 100 million years down the road but today it’d be a flipper.

Mudskippers are a good modern animal that appears to be going through a water to land transition. That may not be where they ultimately end up, without the ability to predict the future we have no idea. The environment may reward changes that allow them to spend more time on the land, or it may not.
 
What if we look for signatures of design in living systems?
I don’t know how one could discriminate between a spontaneously created bit of design compared to an evolved bit of design, but if you can propose it, I’d go along with it.
 
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