Intelligent Design, most scientific

[Squishy]

The question is simple: do we know of any method outside of intelligent agency that can produce complex, densely interdependent, functional living systems? The answer is no. Intelligence is required, both in working in dead material like metal and with living material like cells.

God bless,
Ed

Can you cite the relevent papers that say intellegence is required to build complex living systems?

I dont just mean ones that state that evolution is wrong i mean the ones that unequivably say that it takes intelegence to create these things.

Also equating Arrow Heads to complex living things is a bit of a non sequenter. Man creates things because he is intellegent (i use the term here very loosley after reading some of your replys) However it just does not follow that everything needs to have intellegence behind it.

EDIT: added the quote in so people knew what i was talking about

 

[edwest2]

The article you cite is language biased. All this “intelligent” man did was trial and error, nothing more. He was the ‘first cause.’ A professor friend of mine told me how his friend, an expert in integrated systems, was called in to solve a problem by a major company. It seems a machine they had built didn’t work and they couldn’t figure out why. Their best people had put in a lot of hours, and were stumped, so they called him in. He spotted a wire, asked for a screwdriver, moved the wire to a different position and asked for the machine to be turned on. It worked. When asked how he did it, his answer was: “Sometimes, resistance doesn’t matter, other times, it does.”

Intelligent Design is something human beings do all of the time. The things you use every day were designed by an Intelligence, they didn’t come into being on their own.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Can you cite the relevent papers that say intellegence is required to build complex living systems?

I dont just mean ones that state that evolution is wrong i mean the ones that unequivably say that it takes intelegence to create these things.

Also equating Arrow Heads to complex living things is a bit of a non sequenter. Man creates things because he is intellegent (i use the term here very loosley after reading some of your replys) However it just does not follow that everything needs to have intellegence behind it.

EDIT: added the quote in so people knew what i was talking about

“relevant papers”? Here’s the thing. We know all of the chemical components of living cells and DNA. Can we build a living cell from scratch? No.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Squishy]

uhuh.

So what your really saying is because we dont know how somthing works it must be god? That argument at leaste in my eyes is a bit weak and not very scientific at all

 

[edwest2]

Your reply reveals the chief concern of many - could the Intelligent Designer be God?

You use Intelligently Designed things every day. And they will continue to be made by Intelligent Beings.

Oh by the way, I believe the Intelligent Designer is God, but I’m not one of those people trying to push it into schools.

God bless,
Ed

 

[The_Barbarian]

The article you cite is language biased. All this “intelligent” man did was trial and error, nothing more.

Two important things:

1. The man didn’t do it. In fact, he doesn’t even know how natural selection did it, or how the solution works.
2. Trial and error is indeed how natural selection works. And as you see, it requires no intelligence whatever.

He was the ‘first cause.’

God is the “first cause.” But in this case, natural selection did the work.

A professor friend of mine told me how his friend, an expert in integrated systems, was called in to solve a problem by a major company. It seems a machine they had built didn’t work and they couldn’t figure out why. Their best people had put in a lot of hours, and were stumped, so they called him in. He spotted a wire, asked for a screwdriver, moved the wire to a different position and asked for the machine to be turned on. It worked. When asked how he did it, his answer was: “Sometimes, resistance doesn’t matter, other times, it does.”

Picture the circuit doing that hundreds of thousands of times, picking only the variations that make it better. No intelligent design, just natural selection.

This is why engineers are now using it; it works better. God knew what He was doing, um?

 

[edwest2]

Nope. All of the infrastructure this man was using was Intelligently Designed by men. Having worked with some electronic circuits myself, this is no big deal. And the electronics engineers, heck, all engineers, want to know what they did right so they can add that to their knowledge base.

Even if someone makes an “accidental” discovery or an “I just stumbled upon it” discovery, it still takes an Intelligence to a) recognize it, b) determine its potential, c) put it into practice.

The design work you are trying to describe is akin to a human activity I’ve bubbed “accidental living.” Sure, it works on occasion, but is no way to run your entire life.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Squishy]

Your reply reveals the chief concern of many - could the Intelligent Designer be God?

You use Intelligently Designed things every day. And they will continue to be made by Intelligent Beings.

Oh by the way, I believe the Intelligent Designer is God, but I’m not one of those people trying to push it into schools.

God bless,
Ed

Ok then i have no crux with you. I have no problem in people beleaving what ever they like. However i do have issue with none scientific ideas being taught in science classes. Its somthing i feel very passionate about.

Children should not be subjected at any age to the idea that ID is the cause of the universe or the Origion Of Species. Scienence should teach them to be skeptical to experement, gather evidence and propose theorys. This is the only way that we can advance as a species. If you start using the ‘god of the gaps’ not only will you poision many many young minds. You will also leave god no where to run. As there will always be soeone pushing the frontiers of scientific thought. Pushing god back till your just cluchting at straws.

I beleave strongly that teaching ID in school (as science, in theology lessions its fine) will in the long run destory beleaf in god but before it does that it will set is back many many years.

 

[Mersenne]

The question is simple: do we know of any method outside of intelligent agency that can produce complex, densely interdependent, functional living systems? The answer is no. Intelligence is required, both in working in dead material like metal and with living material like cells.

God bless,
Ed

The only proccess we know of that produces life is non-intelligent. Never have we seen an intelligence create life, only natural processes.

 

[Mersenne]

Pick up a good book about archaeological field work and the criteria they use to identify, say, an arrowhead made by an intelligence, as opposed to a triangular shaped rock made by weathering or breakage. Read about how primitive hand axes are identified from similarly shaped rocks.

Specific to biological systems, like living cells, if the implication is we know how they can be built using purely natural means, then build one.

God bless,
Ed

The criteria they use is based on what they know about primitive humans, and what humans would need in terms of tools, and how they would go about building it.

 

[The_Barbarian]

Nope. All of the infrastructure this man was using was Intelligently Designed by men.

Since it’s a simulation of what nature does, it would have to be. The point, of course, is that no man designed the system, it evolved by itself with no design whatever. No one even knows how it works.

Having worked with some electronic circuits myself, this is no big deal.

You’re catching on. Natural selection is just the way the universe works. Even though the circuit wasn’t designed, even though it apparently uses some effect not presently understood by scientists, it just evolved.

And the electronics engineers, heck, all engineers, want to know what they did right so they can add that to their knowledge base.

They let natural selection do the work. And that was such a good idea, genetic algorithms are now being widely applied to complex engineering problems. Evolution works better than design for those.

Even if someone makes an “accidental” discovery or an “I just stumbled upon it” discovery, it still takes an Intelligence to a) recognize it, b) determine its potential, c) put it into practice.

That’s what this experiment tested. Unless you think a chip is intelligent, no intelligence recognized the solution and none was required to implement it.

The design work you are trying to describe is akin to a human activity I’ve bubbed “accidental living.” Sure, it works on occasion, but is no way to run your entire life.

It’s good enough to produce a circuit more efficient than anything humans could design.

And that should be sufficient evidence that God knew what He was doing, when He set things up.

 

[edwest2]

Ok then i have no crux with you. I have no problem in people beleaving what ever they like. However i do have issue with none scientific ideas being taught in science classes. Its somthing i feel very passionate about.

Children should not be subjected at any age to the idea that ID is the cause of the universe or the Origion Of Species. Scienence should teach them to be skeptical to experement, gather evidence and propose theorys. This is the only way that we can advance as a species. If you start using the ‘god of the gaps’ not only will you poision many many young minds. You will also leave god no where to run. As there will always be soeone pushing the frontiers of scientific thought. Pushing god back till your just cluchting at straws.

I beleave strongly that teaching ID in school (as science, in theology lessions its fine) will in the long run destory beleaf in god but before it does that it will set is back many many years.

Yes, and dogs and cats will start living together. Hysteria toward God in schools in any way, shape or form, is the crux of the issue, not Intelligent Design.

God bless,
Ed

 

[edwest2]

Since it’s a simulation of what nature does, it would have to be. The point, of course, is that no man designed the system, it evolved by itself with no design whatever. No one even knows how it works.

You’re catching on. Natural selection is just the way the universe works. Even though the circuit wasn’t designed, even though it apparently uses some effect not presently understood by scientists, it just evolved.

They let natural selection do the work. And that was such a good idea, genetic algorithms are now being widely applied to complex engineering problems. Evolution works better than design for those.

That’s what this experiment tested. Unless you think a chip is intelligent, no intelligence recognized the solution and none was required to implement it.

It’s good enough to produce a circuit more efficient than anything humans could design.

And that should be sufficient evidence that God knew what He was doing, when He set things up.

Intentional, guided, Intelligent Design is far superior. Unless you’re willing to claim the circuit is somehow intelligent, or that order came from disorder, or something supernatural happened, this amounts to an accidental discovery within the limits of the capabilities of the circuits involved, not something beyond the capabilities of the circuits involved.

God bless,
Ed

 

[Orogeny]

The question is simple: do we know of any method outside of intelligent agency that can produce complex, densely interdependent, functional living systems? The answer is no. Intelligence is required, both in working in dead material like metal and with living material like cells.

You mean like bacterial flagellum? Or the eye? Or the immune system? Right.

By the way, 200 years ago no one knew how the sun functioned. I guess that it was an intelligent agency at work, at least until scientists figured it out.

Peace

Tim

 

[Orogeny]

uhuh.

Ed’s not into backing his assertions with citations. Isn’t that right, Ed?

Peace

Tim

 

[The_Barbarian]

Intentional, guided, Intelligent Design is far superior.

Engineers have tested that assertion. Turns out, it’s false. Natural selection works better than design. In fact, there are problems that are completely unsolvable by design that have been solved by evolutionary processes.

Unless you’re willing to claim the circuit is somehow intelligent, or that order came from disorder, or something supernatural happened, this amounts to an accidental discovery within the limits of the capabilities of the circuits involved, not something beyond the capabilities of the circuits involved.

You’re starting to get it. But you’re still stuck on the idea that each step has to be “for” something. Turns out that accidental variation, plus natural selection, produces complicated and efficient things.

In this case, intelligent design was unable to match the results of evolution.

Why do you think God used it in the first place? If ID was a better way, He would have done it. But as engineers and biologists have found, evolution works better.

 

[edwest2]

As someone who studies the history of inventions, an Intelligence is always required - always. On occasion, interesting things occur but unless an Intelligence notices them, it doesn’t matter.

God created from nothing using His Intelligence. This, before anything existed, He knew.

God bless,
Ed

 

[The_Barbarian]

As someone who studies the history of inventions, an Intelligence is always required - always.

For inventions. Artifacts differ from natural objects, in that artifacts are designed. This is how we tell the difference.

On occasion, interesting things occur but unless an Intelligence notices them, it doesn’t matter.

In the case I cited, no intelligence noted that odd and unknown electrical effect, but natural selection took it and made it work in the solution. No intelligence noticed, but natural selection doesn’t need intelligence.

God created from nothing using His Intelligence. This, before anything existed, He knew.

And no design. He is omnipotent, and has no need to figure out anything. He is the Creator, not some inferior little designer-demiurge.

 

[edwest2]

In any case, what you are talking about was designed.

God bless,
Ed

 

[The_Barbarian]

In any case, what you are talking about was designed.

You think the chip designed the circuit? Certainly no human did, because no one even knows how it works, much less how to make one.

If you try to stretch design to apply to unthinking processes like natural selection, the word no longer means anything.