Intelligent Design, most scientific

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“ID can’t make any testable claims”

So far, the only attempt to do this, Dembski’s “explanitory filter”, crashed and burned [after it was tested].
 
Sure. Designed means any system that cannot have come into existence on its own. While there are certain conditions where some materials may self-assemble, these are one-time events with no stored information. In living biological systems, information must be stored, retrieved, read and put to use, and usually requires the addition of energy. The energy may be derived from heat, light, chemicals in solution or the breakdown of other organic materials.

No known natural process, outside of Intelligence, can produce functional devices. In biological systems, no known process, outside of Intelligence, can produce living things.

God bless,
Ed
 
Ed,

I agree with the facts as you presented them.
Designed means any system that cannot have come into existence on its own.
One aspect of the work of ID is to define the characteristics of a “designed system”. It’s the same approach that is used in forensics – recognizing deliberate patterns that could not have happened by accident. Some of this can be defined mathematically.
 
Sure. Designed means any system that cannot have come into existence on its own.
Then you disagree with Dembski’s definition of design as the set theoretic complement of chance and regularity. Your definition then gives you the task of showing that any system that you claim to be designed could not have come into existence on its own. What method do you propose to make such a determination?
While there are certain conditions where some materials may self-assemble, these are one-time events with no stored information.
What definition of information are you using here? Shanon, Kolmogorov or some other definition.
No known natural process, outside of Intelligence, can produce functional devices. In biological systems, no known process, outside of Intelligence, can produce living things.
False. Evolution is a natural process that can produce functional devices without intelligence. For example, the original living things did not have eyes, some contemporary living things have evolved eyes from those eyeless ancestors. An eye is a functional device.

rossum
 
False. Evolution is a natural process that can produce functional devices without intelligence. For example, the original living things did not have eyes, some contemporary living things have evolved eyes from those eyeless ancestors. An eye is a functional device.

rossum
I think it’s true that the eye is a functional device.

But I think the false claim here is that is has been demonstrated that, via gradual evolutionary processes, the species with eyes have indeed been scientifically verified to have evolved from species which did not have eyes to begin with.

Now, don’t get me wrong.

I agree that it is highly probable that this has happened over long periods of time as lifeform begat lifeform that gradually changed over time, much like a macrocosm of an organic body within the womb that more or less quickly develops a visual capacity to “see” from original primitive features which originally did not have the visual capacity to “see”.

But then we’re talking about some kind of fetal metamorphosis and not some evolutionary pressure selectively shaping and forming the child within the womb.

In this sense, I suppose life-forms which predated humanity would be akin to an “extended” unbilical cord through the geological and genetic record, albeit dried up and fossilized throughout earth’s history.
 
Sure. Designed means any system that cannot have come into existence on its own. While there are certain conditions where some materials may self-assemble, these are one-time events with no stored information. In living biological systems, information must be stored, retrieved, read and put to use, and usually requires the addition of energy. The energy may be derived from heat, light, chemicals in solution or the breakdown of other organic materials.

No known natural process, outside of Intelligence, can produce functional devices. In biological systems, no known process, outside of Intelligence, can produce living things.
Ed, do you accept the science behind a diagram like this-- the six degrees of autism?

The reason why I ask is because it is well known that natural processes that can produce ‘functions’ on a genetic level, even if these functions deviate from their “normal” functions.

Consequently, if these functions harmonize with other irregular functions, in theory, they can produce a beneficial function.

In the case of the autistic savant, for example, the hard-wiring of their brain can open their mind to phenomenal feats of intellectual accuracy. Daniel Tammet is a good example of this gift, since he is able can figure out cube roots quicker than a calculator and recall pi to 22,514 decimal places.

Obviously not all autistic people can do these things-- and it should be noted that Daniel cannot actually drive a car, wire a plug, or tell right from left either, since he simultaniously lives with both an extraordinary ability and several disabilities due to his autism.

But if one can accept the genetic science between the six degrees of autism, I think one would be hard pressed to ignore the science of genetic mapping involved with determining the possibility of common descent too.
God bless,
Ed
God bless you as well. 🙂
 
I agree that it is highly probable that this has happened over long periods of time as lifeform begat lifeform that gradually changed over time, much like a macrocosm of an organic body within the womb that more or less quickly develops a visual capacity to “see” from original primitive features which originally did not have the visual capacity to “see”.
That’s not what the evidence indicates. “Seeing” is a very gradual process. Seeing is gathering useful information from electromagnetic radiation, normally in the visible spectrum. So even if you are blind, your skin is sensitive to light to a small degree. If you doubt this, close your eyes and walk from shade to sunlight on a cloudless summer day. Almost all other organisms are similarly sensitive. A dark pigmented spot would increase sensitivity, just as wearing a black t-shirt would increase yours in the above thought experiment. More sensory nerves would be even better. And if the sensory capsules were slightly changed to be more sensitive to certain wavelengths, so much the better. And that is a primitive retina. And so on. Examples of all such stages are still to be found in living things, and all of them are beneficial (which means that the process is open to Darwinian evolution). The depression of such a spot to limit the light that can touch it (and therefore providing useful information about the direction of light) isn’t much of a change, something that can happen randomly, but would be favored when it happened. We see the process underway in the infrared band, in snakes, with the pythons least adapted, and the pit vipers most evolved.
But then we’re talking about some kind of fetal metamorphosis and not some evolutionary pressure selectively shaping and forming the child within the womb.
No. It’s merely that those with a somewhat better phenontype tend to leave more offspring than those lacking such features. And even a tiny change can be acted upon by selection.

Many IDers originally claimed that their “calculations” had shown that this could not have happened on its own. But it did. And anyone who looks at the evidence can see that there is no need for “intelligent design.”

In fact, such a thing could not have been produced by an intelligent designer. But it was no problem for an Almighty Creator, who produced a universe in which such things evolve.
 
That’s not what the evidence indicates. “Seeing” is a very gradual process. Seeing is gathering useful information from electromagnetic radiation, normally in the visible spectrum. So even if you are blind, your skin is sensitive to light to a small degree.
Yes, but this is a senstity to heat and not actually “seeing the light” so to speak. In other words, we’re talking about how a tactile sense eventually became a visual sense, something which synesthetes have difficulty with in our modern era.

The scorpian is a awesome example of a tactile sense becoming a visual sense. They sense their way around using sensory hairs and slit organs on the legs, pedipalps and body that pick up vibrations and scents (mechanoreceptors and chemoreceptors). They also have special organs on the underside of the body called pectines, which pick up ground textures and scents. Ground vibrations caused by moving prey are sensed both by slit-like tarsal sensory organs on the scorpion’s legs and vibration sensitive tarsal hairs.
If you doubt this, close your eyes and walk from shade to sunlight on a cloudless summer day. Almost all other organisms are similarly sensitive. A dark pigmented spot would increase sensitivity, just as wearing a black t-shirt would increase yours in the above thought experiment. More sensory nerves would be even better. And if the sensory capsules were slightly changed to be more sensitive to certain wavelengths, so much the better. And that is a primitive retina. And so on.
I have no doubt the a direction sense can be garnered from a sensitivity to heat sources, like the sunlight example you gave above. One could also determine the directions up and down from their sense of equilibrium too, so another “direction sense” could be picked up from this and added to the fora of senses to build upward toward a more accurate awareness of their surroundings.

However, having stated this, there is no “knock down” theory as to exactly how the tactile sense and sense of balance eventually became something which could “see” light in the detail that the human now sees.

Don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying it couldn’t have happened. I think Collins in his book Language of God gives a good general outline of how such a thing “could have” happened.

But I will stress that “could have” does not necessarilly mean “must have”. At this point in time we simply don’t know if this really happened or not-- although people are allowed to “believe” this if they so choose.
Examples of all such stages are still to be found in living things, and all of them are beneficial (which means that the process is open to Darwinian evolution). The depression of such a spot to limit the light that can touch it (and therefore providing useful information about the direction of light) isn’t much of a change, something that can happen randomly, but would be favored when it happened.
Yes, there are all potential example of what “could have” happened-- which is a matter of faith in my opinion.
We see the process underway in the infrared band, in snakes, with the pythons least adapted, and the pit vipers most evolved.
Me personally, I think we’re seeing the emergence of a totally new species right here– but this is only my own opinion.

In other words, I think that with enough time, a new species will emerge from the interaction of the two different species. This is a “co-operative” nature of evolution that I think is rarely addressed precisely because people seem to be fixated on natural selection and mutation.

Intentionality plays a part in the evolution of species, even on the lower orders of species, no matter how much “secular evolutionists” would attempt to claim our consciousness is merely an illusion frabricated by a mind that cannot conceive of itself in this way.

I’m fairly sure that most women who have experienced pregancy will tell you that they have had odd cravings too, cravings which left when they gave birth and were often later seen to be a personality traits of the child they bore.
 
No. It’s merely that those with a somewhat better phenontype tend to leave more offspring than those lacking such features. And even a tiny change can be acted upon by selection.
It sure can. But it doesn’t necessarilly have to be this way though.

You are applying a “explanation” over the process of life’s origins which might simply not be true to full extent you claim it to be true-- and you are effectively berating any suggestion of “design” because you simply find it intellectually unappealing in your theodicy of God’s creative act.

For example, if I say that life was intially “designed” right from the most primitive cells to have eventually gradually metamorphosized via succesive evolutionary pressures toward the emergence of humanity, you cannot actually use science to prove this claim wrong.
Many IDers originally claimed that their “calculations” had shown that this could not have happened on its own. But it did. And anyone who looks at the evidence can see that there is no need for “intelligent design.”
I guess at this point I have to ask you what you mean by “design” in the first place?
In fact, such a thing could not have been produced by an intelligent designer.
Saying that “perceived randomness” proves that God did not act within his creation is really not much of a different argument than those who say the “existence of evil” proves that God does not exist at all.

If the second part above is wrong, then why is the first part assumed true?
But it was no problem for an Almighty Creator, who produced a universe in which such things evolve.
So he did “design” the intial parameters then, didn’t he?
 
I agree that it is highly probable that this has happened over long periods of time as lifeform begat lifeform that gradually changed over time,
This is science, “highly probable” is all you will ever get. There is no absolute certainty in science; you can get 99% certainty, 99.99% certainty or even 99.9999% certainty - you will never get 100% certainty.

That eyes evolved has been shown beyond reasonable doubt. It will never be shown beyond unreasonable doubt.

rossum
 
This is science, “highly probable” is all you will ever get. There is no absolute certainty in science; you can get 99% certainty, 99.99% certainty or even 99.9999% certainty - you will never get 100% certainty.

That eyes evolved has been shown beyond reasonable doubt. It will never be shown beyond unreasonable doubt.

rossum
I’m not talking about 100% certainty. I’m talking about faith.

And I just think more evidence will be forthcoming too, evidence which could work in either the direction of special creation or evolution.

In some ways, I’m reminded of the mindset of the urban myth of U.S. Commissioner of Patents Charles H. Duell declaration that everything that could be invented had been invented.

Of course, it’s not true that everything that could be invented had been invented. It’s not even true that Charles H. Duell said this in the first place.

But when I read that it is virtually assured that that eyes have been shown beyond reasonable doubt to have evolved (and it will never be shown beyond unreasonable doubt), I am somewhat reminded of this urban legend.
 
Ed, do you accept the science behind a diagram like this-- the six degrees of autism?

The reason why I ask is because it is well known that natural processes that can produce ‘functions’ on a genetic level, even if these functions deviate from their “normal” functions.

Consequently, if these functions harmonize with other irregular functions, in theory, they can produce a beneficial function.

In the case of the autistic savant, for example, the hard-wiring of their brain can open their mind to phenomenal feats of intellectual accuracy. Daniel Tammet is a good example of this gift, since he is able can figure out cube roots quicker than a calculator and recall pi to 22,514 decimal places.

Obviously not all autistic people can do these things-- and it should be noted that Daniel cannot actually drive a car, wire a plug, or tell right from left either, since he simultaniously lives with both an extraordinary ability and several disabilities due to his autism.

But if one can accept the genetic science between the six degrees of autism, I think one would be hard pressed to ignore the science of genetic mapping involved with determining the possibility of common descent too.

God bless you as well. 🙂
Yes, I understand it. No, I don’t think common descent as illustrated in biology texts is the whole answer, the correct answer. If God came down today, and told everyone, “I created it. I produced the changes.” Everyone would go, “Aw, Man! Now I gotta get a new hobby. He spoiled our fun! Here we was, comin up with theory, after theory, after theory. And He ruins it by givin us the answer!”

I write fiction professionally. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of plausible sounding scenarios out there. You can make up a convincing story if you work at it long enough. Speaking generally, and not about anyone here, that is how professional liers cheat people out of their money.

Here, there is a way to rightly view this. It starts with the Bible. It continues with a thorough study of Church teaching, it then continues with the science. Since God is involved, you’ve got information from God and miracles to consider along with the science.

I don’t think God tricked or meant to trick anyone. I’ll add my scenario. When science began considering a natural origin for humans, they quickly became a product of their evolution. It was the basis of eugenics laws being passed to force the sterilization of morons and others that needed to be weeded out of the gene pool. The Racial Laws and related science in Nazi Germany ‘proved’ that certain groups of people were inferior.

Our Lady of Guadelupe left a physical image on a cloak that should have deteriorated centuries ago. Right now, a lot of hype about science has dimmed the attention of the faithful about the real, physical actions of God.

God bless,
Ed
 
The courts of law, practically worldwide at that, have also rejected our proposition that life starts at the point of conception in the womb too-- something which, speaking on a purely scientifically biological level, can be clearly demonstrated based on one’s genetic profile alone…

I’m not saying that you don’t have a point. For example, both Miller and Collins have rejected ID-- and their rejection of ID has nothing to do with their lack of faith in a divine eternal loving God either.

I’m only suggesting that we look more carefully for who we lean on when we look for supports for theistic evolution. When we present an argument like this, people jump to the wrong conclusions-- as you and I have both have seen. 🙂
I agree, it was only the utter lack of any factual basis in the post and my being tired of rewriting again and again the same stuff for the newbies who have just arrived and decide to simply dive in with stuff instead of reading prior posts which would explain to them that they are getting no where with such arguments. ID of course has been rejected first and formost by the scientific community which finds no predictability and no proof to their claims whatsoever. It’s place is clearly in theology.
 
Ed,

I agree with the facts as you presented them.

**
facts? what facts did he present? Only assertions. You are new here it think. Ed has given up trying to make any reasoned argument against evolution. He simply now states how he wants things to be. He stated no facts whatsoever.**

One aspect of the work of ID is to define the characteristics of a “designed system”. It’s the same approach that is used in forensics – recognizing deliberate patterns that could not have happened by accident. Some of this can be defined mathematically.
**Sorry but we are way beyond this now. You suggest that there are designed systems yet you have not shown a single one. And if you do, I suspect we will be reading about you and your nobel prize next. **
 
Ah, the infamous “nobel prize” comment. Archaeologists regularly separate artifacts from those that appear intelligently designed from those that actually were intelligently designed. Forensics is another good example where patterns are analyzed to determine how they got there. Probability and information theory also play roles in that Intelligently Designed systems imply an order and probability beyong natural occurrences.

God bless,
Ed
 
Yes, I understand it. No, I don’t think common descent as illustrated in biology texts is the whole answer, the correct answer. If God came down today, and told everyone, “I created it. I produced the changes.” Everyone would go, “Aw, Man! Now I gotta get a new hobby. He spoiled our fun! Here we was, comin up with theory, after theory, after theory. And He ruins it by givin us the answer!”

I write fiction professionally. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of plausible sounding scenarios out there. You can make up a convincing story if you work at it long enough. Speaking generally, and not about anyone here, that is how professional liers cheat people out of their money.

Here, there is a way to rightly view this. It starts with the Bible. It continues with a thorough study of Church teaching, it then continues with the science. Since God is involved, you’ve got information from God and miracles to consider along with the science.

I don’t think God tricked or meant to trick anyone. I’ll add my scenario. When science began considering a natural origin for humans, they quickly became a product of their evolution. It was the basis of eugenics laws being passed to force the sterilization of morons and others that needed to be weeded out of the gene pool. The Racial Laws and related science in Nazi Germany ‘proved’ that certain groups of people were inferior.

Our Lady of Guadelupe left a physical image on a cloak that should have deteriorated centuries ago. Right now, a lot of hype about science has dimmed the attention of the faithful about the real, physical actions of God.

Ed
The point is you no longer even bother with any proof, and it’s impossible to see what you claim any more. All we get is that you are confounded about evolution. YOu don’t like and can’t disprove it. So you gripe and moan and say things that everyone has already agreed to. Then you mix in miracles and somehow you think that makes a coherent statement.

You have admitted to evolution “in some form” at least twice now. Everyone agrees with your that God is creator and the ultimate force behind the universe. What is it that you want now? Other than your assertion that somehow science books should include some statement about God? Course as usual, you don’t address how you are gonna keep it a “Catholic” statement as apposed to a Jewish or Muslim or Native American, or Hindu, or Buddhist, or Shinto, or Bahi, or Sikh, or goodness knows who else’s perfered statement.
 
“All we get…”? Are you a leader of a group here?

The human being consists of two parts: physical and spiritual. The answer to human origins consists of two parts: physical and spiritual.

Since this forum is called “Catholic Answers,” I am presenting my answers only from a Catholic perspective.

I don’t care what the Scientific Priesthood thinks.

God bless,
Ed
 
“All we get…”? Are you a leader of a group here?

**nope, but my opinions are in line with the great number of posters on this topic. **

The human being consists of two parts: physical and spiritual. The answer to human origins consists of two parts: physical and spiritual.

**Yes, how many times do we have to agree with you on this? **

Since this forum is called “Catholic Answers,” I am presenting my answers only from a Catholic perspective.

**No you aren’t and that in a nutshell is the problem. You are presenting them from your own personal opinion, which is just fine. you insist you are speaking for the Church and giving the Catholic answer. That you are definitely not doing. **

I don’t care what the Scientific Priesthood thinks.

**Calling science a priesthood will not change a thing Ed. It’s really beneath you to argue like that. **

Ed
Either you argue for arguments sake or you just plain don’t like folks who aren’t on the far right with ya.
 
“far right”? I have no political affiliation.

I have quoted Pope Benedict and Cardinal Ratzinger. I have posted links to articles. I have posted excerpts from Humani Generis and Human Persons Created in the Image of God.

My problem is with people who think that there are other answers beyond divine revelation. It appears to go something like this:

“OK. I think God did this, this and this but not that.”

“No, no. God did this and that, but not this.”

“Wait! Wait! I’ve got it! This was all symbolic except for that!”

I am trying to correct the view, among some, that the Teaching Authority of the Church is not sufficient to answer certain scientific claims. It is sufficient and all scientific claims (not scientists or scientific journals) are subject to review by the Catholic Church, which is within its authority and competence to make statements to the faithful regarding both good and bad, valid and invalid scientific statements.

God bless,
Ed
 
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