Intelligent Design - What is the strongest evidence for it?

[Orogeny]

I perused the transcript and am familiar with the judge’s comments. So what if we’re both right and both sides were politically charged? One of them was declared a “winner.” I would say that doesn’t really amount to justice.

Both were politcally charged, no doubt. The problem with the defense was that they were also wrong. They were trying to get creationism in the science classroom and got caught. Two of the board members should have, in my mind, gone to jail because of their perjurious testimony.

Don’t just peruse the judge’s verdict. Read it and cross-reference it to the testimony. He was much kinder than he could have been.

Peace

Tim

 

[MarcoPolo]

Don’t just peruse the judge’s verdict. Read it and cross-reference it to the testimony. He was much kinder than he could have been.

And don’t forget to read some post-trial analysis…article from post #19.

 

[Orogeny]

And don’t forget to read some post-trial analysis…article from post #19.

I have. I followed that trial and it’s aftermath quite closely. There was some serious damage controll efforts made following that ruling.

Like I said, I don’t think he went far enough. I think two of the board members should have gone to prison for perjury.

Peace

Tim

 

[SpiritMeadow]

What’s the name of that other planet that has trees and grass and bushes and flowers and birds and a perfect atmosphere and water and abundant life etc etc etc. You know! that other planet, not earth but, the other planet or planets. It must be in that other galaxy, you know… the one where the perfect planet is at an ideal distance from the sun and has a moon which is just the right size so that when it comes in line with the sun it covers it perfectly (not too large or not too small) to make an eclipse.
Gee!!?? I guess science hasn’t proven that there is that “other” planet. Just a bunch of speculation and probablities.
If you pull the book off of your nose - you’ll be able to read the words.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

What are you trying to say? Are you suggesting its now some Catholic believe that BILLIONS of galaxies, most of which we cannot see with anything but the most powerful telescopes were all created by God just to look pretty? Is it sinking in? Billions of galaxies, means trillions upon trillions of stars, and at least billions of planets…You think only one has life? Or did I miss you vague point completely?

 

[MarcoPolo]

Like I said, I don’t think he went far enough. I think two of the board members should have gone to prison for perjury.

In which part of the transcript did the 2 of them perjure themselves?

 

[SpiritMeadow]

I perused the transcript and am familiar with the judge’s comments. So what if we’re both right and both sides were politically charged? One of them was declared a “winner.” I would say that doesn’t really amount to justice.

You know I cover well over 100 blogs a week, and several papers. I saw not ONE commentary that didn’t think the ID people got completely destroyed. WHY? because what they were promoting was garbage, and they got caught at it…I’ve seldom seen a more convincing argument. The hilarity of it is that almost all of what burned them came from their own witnesses and more to the point their own paper work turned over in discovery.

According to the world I’ve sampled, it was a knockout. How you can claim injustice is beyond me. The perjurers got caught. End of story. In case you didn’t know, this was part of the evangelical right’s (i guess we may have to include a Catholic or two now with the fundie non-denominational born agains) new strategy. The run for federal office wasn’t working so their determined to infiltrate school boards and town councils in an attempt to sneak in and form majorities and force fundamentalist doctrime into schools and other manner of public institutions. This was what was attempted in Dover. Now everyone is on to that scheme and they will no doubt be looking for a 3rd strategy.

 

[MarcoPolo]

You know I cover well over 100 blogs a week, and several papers. I saw not ONE commentary that didn’t think the ID people got completely destroyed. WHY? because what they were promoting was garbage

So do you believe ID has no place in any school? Not in philosophy? As a problem for Darwinism? Anywhere? Anything?

 

[ricmat]

What are you trying to say? Are you suggesting its now some Catholic believe that BILLIONS of galaxies, most of which we cannot see with anything but the most powerful telescopes were all created by God just to look pretty? Is it sinking in? Billions of galaxies, means trillions upon trillions of stars, and at least billions of planets…You think only one has life? Or did I miss you vague point completely?

Wow, I read mangy dog’s post and didn’t see any claim that this was Catholic belief. Your imagination is way overactive Spritmeadow.

But to your question “you think only one has life?” yup. That’s exactly what he is saying.

Put ID aside for a minute. Put your fevered imagination back in unfevered mode for a minute. And I say again, put ID aside for a minute, this has NOTHING do to with ID.

Based on what science tells us about the size of the universe, number of galaxies, planets, distribution of elements and age of the universe, as well as what it takes ANY sort of life to form be it our own or some trekkian vision of other forms of life…

AGAIN…WHAT SCIENCE TELLS US ABOUT THOSE THINGS…then do the math. Probabilities. etc. Life doesn’t happen by accident. Yes, there are trillions of stars. Trillions of planets. 18 billion years. BUT THAT DOESN"T EVEN COME CLOSE to being enough time for randomness to create even the simplest form of life.

You have fallen for the same BS which I fell for a few decades back. If you have enough “stuff” and enough “time” then life will form. The standard argument by analogy - If you have an infinite number of monkeys pounding randomly on an infinite number of typewriters, then they will eventually produce all the works of Shakespeare. That’s true enough.

But the problem is that although trillions of planets and billions of years SEEMS like a lot of stuff and a lot of time, it doesn’t come close to being enough time or stuff. You could have a billion times as much stuff and a billion times 18 billion years and it still isn’t enough stuff and enough time. It just doesn’t work. Which leaves the question, “Well then, how did it happen?”

Again I repeat because you probably weren’t listening the first 3 times - THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ID. This is science and math as you accept the terms.

Some people refuse to accept this conclusion, because they believe that it might point to a higher power. So they come up wih the previously mentioned infinite universes theory. Having an infinite number of universes is the ONLY way they can come up with enough time and enough stuff for randomness to produce life.

And of course, nobody has any proof of these infinite universes.

If you don’t want to accept that God designed the universe, fine. If you don’t want to accept that looking for evidence of a designer is “science” - fine. If you think that the Dover thing was all about getting creationism into the classroom - fine. But please, don’t believe the monkey / typewriter analogy (or Star Trek’s “life on every world we ever ran across” scripts). BTW I’m a Trekkie, and realize that it is fiction.

 

[Richard_Powers]

Numerous posters here have given you exactly what you asked for…evidence.

You have changed your original request and asked for proof.

Proof cannot be given.

Posters have only given evidence against the specific mechanisms of evolution and certain abiogenesis hypotheses, but nobody has given evidence for/] intelligent design. Even if the theory of evolution and all the current abiogenesis hypotheses are totally wrong it is not evidence for intelligent design. I asked for evidence for intelligent design and still await this evidence.

 

[edwest2]

You know I cover well over 100 blogs a week, and several papers. I saw not ONE commentary that didn’t think the ID people got completely destroyed. WHY? because what they were promoting was garbage, and they got caught at it…I’ve seldom seen a more convincing argument. The hilarity of it is that almost all of what burned them came from their own witnesses and more to the point their own paper work turned over in discovery.

According to the world I’ve sampled, it was a knockout. How you can claim injustice is beyond me. The perjurers got caught. End of story. In case you didn’t know, this was part of the evangelical right’s (i guess we may have to include a Catholic or two now with the fundie non-denominational born agains) new strategy. The run for federal office wasn’t working so their determined to infiltrate school boards and town councils in an attempt to sneak in and form majorities and force fundamentalist doctrime into schools and other manner of public institutions. This was what was attempted in Dover. Now everyone is on to that scheme and they will no doubt be looking for a 3rd strategy.

Total strangers “infiltrate” town councils and school boards? There are a finite number of school boards, why hasn’t anyone alerted them to the threat? And once they infiltrate, then what? Do they collect all the school board members at gunpoint, herd them into a conference room and demand they teach ID or stealth Creationism or else? This would make for a decent bit of fiction, but it has flaws from a story-telling perspective. 1), You assume all school boards are gullible and lacking knowledge about a national issue that has received wide press. 2), Who coordinates and funds these “infiltrators”? Surely, there must be some group working ‘behind the scenes’ to secure and coordinate their services. Will anyone be alerting them to the threat of a third strategy?

God bless,
Ed

 

[wildleafblower]

You know I cover well over 100 blogs a week, and several papers. I saw not ONE commentary that didn’t think the ID people got completely destroyed. WHY? because what they were promoting was garbage, and they got caught at it…I’ve seldom seen a more convincing argument. The hilarity of it is that almost all of what burned them came from their own witnesses and more to the point their own paper work turned over in discovery.

Your comments are interesting to say the least SpiritMeadow though as a staunch researcher I along with a large group of us already knew the Intelligent Design movement was pseudo-science long before the 2005 trial of Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. v. Dover Area School District, et al.

Now everyone is on to that scheme and they will no doubt be looking for a 3rd strategy.

Humm, I assume SpiritMeadow that the “they” you are speaking of are proponents of the Intelligent Design movement. What was their second strategy? As I have already stated before the Intelligent Design movement went underground after they lost in 2005. Many of their advocates are panentheists and live in the U.S. and Europe.

 

[Orogeny]

In which part of the transcript did the 2 of them perjure themselves?

Find the part where they are discussing who purchased the creationist textbooks.

Peace

Tim

 

[Xpi]

Nemo dat quod non habet. That goes for the universe as well.

 

[buffalo]

Posters have only given evidence against the specific mechanisms of evolution and certain abiogenesis hypotheses, but nobody has given evidence for/] intelligent design. Even if the theory of evolution and all the current abiogenesis hypotheses are totally wrong it is not evidence for intelligent design. I asked for evidence for intelligent design and still await this evidence.

You may never find emperical evidence. However, you have been sucked into the scientism worldview the same as Didymus. (the Apostle)

Science by its own definition has a limited say about the universe. It is limited to our 5 senses and 4 dimensions.

Scientists by nature are curious and it would seem would be open to learning more but have effectiviely boxed themselves into their own limits. That is sad.

 

[buffalo]

Total strangers “infiltrate” town councils and school boards? There are a finite number of school boards, why hasn’t anyone alerted them to the threat? And once they infiltrate, then what? Do they collect all the school board members at gunpoint, herd them into a conference room and demand they teach ID or stealth Creationism or else? This would make for a decent bit of fiction, but it has flaws from a story-telling perspective. 1), You assume all school boards are gullible and lacking knowledge about a national issue that has received wide press. 2), Who coordinates and funds these “infiltrators”? Surely, there must be some group working ‘behind the scenes’ to secure and coordinate their services. Will anyone be alerting them to the threat of a third strategy?

God bless,
Ed

One could make a strong case that school boards are already infiltrated by political correctness, which says we the elitists know what is best and you better like it.

 

[buffalo]

Here is the Institutes reply to the Nova special.

The Truth about the Dover Intelligent Design Trial

 

[SpiritMeadow]

So do you believe ID has no place in any school? Not in philosophy? As a problem for Darwinism? Anywhere? Anything?

**It has no place in any school science class. If a school wants to offer a course in philosophy or metaphysics, then by all means. **

Total strangers “infiltrate” town councils and school boards? There are a finite number of school boards, why hasn’t anyone alerted them to the threat? And once they infiltrate, then what? Do they collect all the school board members at gunpoint, herd them into a conference room and demand they teach ID or stealth Creationism or else? This would make for a decent bit of fiction, but it has flaws from a story-telling perspective. 1), You assume all school boards are gullible and lacking knowledge about a national issue that has received wide press. 2), Who coordinates and funds these “infiltrators”? Surely, there must be some group working ‘behind the scenes’ to secure and coordinate their services. Will anyone be alerting them to the threat of a third strategy?

**Ed it really is unfortuntate you missed it. I said nothing about total strangers. But the fundie right has stated this before. They gave up on the national offices and decided to try to infitrate from the bottom or grass roots. There is nothing new here. You just havent’ been paying attention to the issue. **

 

[SpiritMeadow]

Wow, I read mangy dog’s post and didn’t see any claim that this was Catholic belief. Your imagination is way overactive Spritmeadow.

**Excuse me…but Mangy seemed to be mocking the possibility that there is other life throughout the universe. I asked if some Catholics were now believing that, meaning him. My imagination is just fine, since apparently i correctly interpreted him. I didn’t say the Church believed any such hooey, but “some” Catholics…apparently he is one at least. **

But to your question “you think only one has life?” yup. That’s exactly what he is saying.
**So I guess my imaginination is quite ok **
Put ID aside for a minute. Put your fevered imagination back in unfevered mode for a minute. And I say again, put ID aside for a minute, this has NOTHING do to with ID.

**I’m sure to some people’s cosmology it may very well. And I don’t really appreciate the continuous "fevered imagination. **

AGAIN…WHAT SCIENCE TELLS US ABOUT THOSE THINGS…then do the math. Probabilities. etc. Life doesn’t happen by accident. Yes, there are trillions of stars. Trillions of planets. 18 billion years. BUT THAT DOESN"T EVEN COME CLOSE to being enough time for randomness to create even the simplest form of life.

**Oh so science is telling us that there is no mathmatical way for life to have arisen absent God? You are saying its mathmatically impossible for life to have arisen on its own? Please give me the sites the the various journals and scientific organizations that make this assertion. I’m amazed that we are even discussing this. This should have been headline news around the world. When was this determined? **

But the problem is that although trillions of planets and billions of years SEEMS like a lot of stuff and a lot of time, it doesn’t come close to being enough time or stuff. You could have a billion times as much stuff and a billion times 18 billion years and it still isn’t enough stuff and enough time. It just doesn’t work. Which leaves the question, “Well then, how did it happen?”

Again I repeat because you probably weren’t listening the first 3 times - THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ID. This is science and math as you accept the terms.

**Can you drop the snotty remarks please? **

Some people refuse to accept this conclusion, because they believe that it might point to a higher power.

**The only kind I can think of might be atheists and I would assume just a couple here or there. Most scientists follow the facts. So are you positing a million person conspiracy to keep this amazing evidence hidden? **
.

If you don’t want to accept that God designed the universe, fine. If you don’t want to accept that looking for evidence of a designer is “science” - fine. If you think that the Dover thing was all about getting creationism into the classroom - fine. But please, don’t believe the monkey / typewriter analogy (or Star Trek’s “life on every world we ever ran across” scripts). BTW I’m a Trekkie, and realize that it is fiction.

See you don’t have a clue what I think apparently. I actually believe in God’s having created the universe or universes as the case may be ex nilio. He created the laws that govern as well. He allowed, in my opinion, and its just that being completely theological, he allows his perfect laws to run on their own. Evolution was and is a natural mechanism.

What you are missing I believe, is that such pursuits as “looking for evidence of a designer” is not a scientific pursuit, its a theological one. Science has no mechanism to invesigate the supernatural which is why its called supernatural.

dover was all about getting creationism into the schools…that was proven beyond any doubt whatsoever, and from having been a lawyer I can tell you that seldom does any case reach that level of proof. This simply tried unsuccessfully to mask creationism as ID, showing rather effectively that they don’t really care about ID at all, its just a convenient tool to get where they want to get and can’t get to openly.

I’ve never stated anything about star trek or monkeys or typewriters. While I understand you condenscending remarks, they have nothing to do with any argument I’ve made.

But you should sure submit your theories about mathmatical impossibilty…I can see a nobel prize in your future.

 

[Richard_Powers]

You may never find emperical evidence. However, you have been sucked into the scientism worldview the same as Didymus. (the Apostle)

Science by its own definition has a limited say about the universe. It is limited to our 5 senses and 4 dimensions.

Scientists by nature are curious and it would seem would be open to learning more but have effectiviely boxed themselves into their own limits. That is sad.

You know nothing about my world view. I have never stated if I do or do not believe in things that cannot be explained by science. I started this thread asking for the best scientific evidence for ID since ID proponents claim that it is science. I challenge you to either back up your statement that I have been suckered into the scientism worldview or admit that this was a dishonest statement and admit that you are a dishonest person.

 

[Orogeny]

You know nothing about my world view. I have never stated if I do or do not believe in things that cannot be explained by science. I started this thread asking for the best scientific evidence for ID since ID proponents claim that it is science. I challenge you to either back up your statement that I have been suckered into the scientism worldview or admit that this was a dishonest statement and admit that you are a dishonest person.

Buffalo can speak for himself, but I will tell you that he is not a dishonest person. He made an assumption based on your posts just like you did based on his.

Peace

Tim