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tjm190
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Again, I would assume Noah would have some of them on the Ark, since they can’t last in water for that long. Again though, 40 days without sunlight is an issue for a reptile.
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sambos671
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I haven’t been following this topic very closely, however, I would like to add an interesting personal development. Background: I returned to the Catholic faith last year. My wife is a Baptist and was very conserned about this spiritual development and it has caused some contention. Point of topic: Recently my daughter came back from the Baptist Sunday School she attends with a “science project”. Her assignment was to find things in nature that can lead to “evidence” of Noah’s ark and of course add scriptural verses to prove this. Which compounded a problem with my family. We homeschool. We teach science to our kids. However, everytime when we broach the subject of biology and origins indicating things as they relate to evolution (even on a micro-level rather than a Macro one) my kids eyes glaze over as they tell us that their Youth Pastor told them that all evolution is a lie from the devil to decieve us. He has even gone so far as to say that dinosaurs were a satanic deception. Our kids are now put in a position to believe the Charasmatic Youth pastor or their Parents and since he’s using the “bible” on his side they automatical refer to his authority on the subject. It became problematic when watching a nova episode on geology that my 5 year old said “they just don’t know what they are talking about.” It then occured to us that if this continues our children will grow up ignorant of science or when finding out that science can be verified against what has been taught by this pastor in Sunday School they will question God. Now that they are given assignements that are called “scientific” but actually theological or faith based my wife flipped! We don’t want our children disregarding science and holding to a dishonest view of Faith contra Science thereby forcing their own ignorance. My wife told me that she will leave this Church for the kids sake and start attending the Catholic Church with me! This is wonderful. But hits at a very problematic issue in Christian cirlces of forcing scientific discovery to match their view of Creation. Rather than letting science speak for itself and let God reveal himselve as he wills. I’ve told Baptist before that God was totally honest and truthful in Genesis but how they understand it may be in question.
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tjm190
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Oh those darn satanic dinosaurs…
(good luck with your transition)
(good luck with your transition)
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edwest2
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Is science the new circumcision? Science does not mean evolution. Do you understand? When I took electronics, not one of my classes was about evolution. People who design aircraft need no background in evolution. The same for those who design cars. None of those people grew up ignorant of science. And what is a dishonest view of “Faith contra Science”? What requirement of your faith, your Catholic faith, are you meeting?
Who is “forcing scientific discovery to match their view of Creation.”? Scientists? Scientists don’t generally publish peer reviewed papers analyzing the Bible and trying to line it up with their discoveries.
For over a hundred years, the Bible was used as a textbook in American schools. Did you know that? Evolution did not teach me how to use my computer. And Christian Sunday Schools will still continue to teach children that evolution is filled with falsehoods.
I suggest you ask yourself exactly what will happen if your children grow up believing evolution is false.
Peace,
Ed
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sambos671
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I’m more conserned about my children ignoring science. And note there is no contradiction believeing evolution on a micro level or within species. They don’t have to accept the Macro level but to disregard it entirely? Thats dishonest and uneducated. Biology and natural selection go hand in hand. So does genetics. Do I disregard genetics because I believe the bible? Yet this is the kind of thing this baptist pastor wants to do. To teach kids that dinosaurs are a demonic deception is ludicrous!!! The vatican has given acceptance to certain aspects regarding evolution with out discrediting God. That what I hope to achieve with my children. But to be dishonest and say everything about Evolution is wrong is just not honest.
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StAnastasia
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I thought you were a biblical literalist. If you interpret Genesis 6:17 literally, no fish or crocodiles survived outside the ark: “And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.”
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StAnastasia
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You are right to be worried. Not a few scientists have abandoned their Christian faith because as children they were forced to interpret the bible literally. When they went to college and became educated, the false dichotomy of “either science or the Bible” led them to reject their religious faith. The problem is, they rejected a faith they never understood in anything but an adolescent way. Biblical literalism leads people into atheism when they become scientifically educated. That would not happen if people were educated in both science and theology.
StAnastasia
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edwest2
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“not honest”? Why do you want to defend this honest thing so badly?
What will you tell your children when they see the following on a billboard:
“Praise Darwin. Evolve beyond belief.”
Or this on a bus:
“Man created God.”
Will you stand up and defend people who honestly believe these things? Will you defend those who honestly believe that their genetic material created god/gods/spirituality purely as a survival mechanism? Will you defend those honest scientists who truly believe this? After all, they will argue, our bodies evolved and so did our brains, and we believe god/spirituality is just a false evolutionary mechanism to help ignorant primitive man survive until he became modern (apparently a few years ago) and can now safely discard such superstition?
Christianity and its Bronze Age Holy Book are under attack. That book of myths and invisible man in the sky - you actually believe in all of that stuff? Without evidence? Why?
I encourage you to understand what the Church teaches about this.
Peace,
Ed
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Zundrah
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There is nothing dark nor satanic about dinosaurs.
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Zundrah
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And why is that important? We don’t NEED to know. Difference being that people want to know about how human life began (it is a common question) but no one bothers to ask where the water went (that is an uncommon question). When you get to heaven, you can ask him how. But heaven is unscientific.
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sambos671
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I do. Do you?
Where Evolution has problems I will admit to that. Where a literal interpretation that leads to dispensationalism and its problems I will admit to that. I believe its best to be honest. At least My kids will have a rounded education.
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StAnastasia
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Ed, you live in a scary world, don’t you? You find science and scientists frightening, don’t you? Have you ever visited a university biology or geology department? They’re not all monsters. Have you ever had a conversation with a Catholic scientist? I encourage you to do so; you may be pleasantly surprised to learn that scientists are not uniformly anti-God or anti-religion. I shared a conference with Kenneth Miller at Notre Dame two weeks ago, and we spoke about our shared Catholic faith.
StAnastasia
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edwest2
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Wow. You know very little about me. I have had the privilege of knowing a few genius level people who taught at the University level.
I find your comments about scientists unsupported by the facts. According to the journal Nature, most leading scientists still reject God. They will go on to infect others with their disbelief.
Kenneth Miller has discredited himself as a spokesman for Catholic teaching regarding science.
I strongly encourage you to look more critically at your stauch defense of science which appears to be equal only to the word evolution. Humility is important. Be careful as you storm the gates of what the secular world has redefined as “ignorance.” That word has been perverted to mean only “those who disagree with our worldview.” So as you defend these people, make sure your faith is not trampled in the process.
Peace,
Ed
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reggieM
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Agreed. He seems to be presented as the best and sometimes only Catholic spokesperson for science, and especially for evolution.
Using him as an exemplar is not convincing – for those who do so, I suggest that they find someone else.
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StAnastasia
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If “unbelief” is an infection, its origin lies not in science, but in simplistic philosophies and theologies. Leading scientists reject God not because they are scientists, but because the religious faiths in which they were raised were poorly expressed. Perhaps they were told as adolescents that they had to choose between their scientific interests and a literal interpretation of biblical stories. This is of course a false dichotomy – that is not the only choice – but it’s understandable why a highly educated young scientist would say that if the choice is between the best that science has to offer and a literal interpretation of some cosmogonic story written 3,000 years ago, then she or he will drop the ancient story in favor of contemporary scientific knowledge. It doesn’t have to be that way.
StAnastasia
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StAnastasia
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I only mentioned Ken because we had dinner together and a panel at the conference. There are thousands of Catholic biologists, geologists, chemists, physicists, etc. They attend Mass and practice their science, and witness to their students that there no necessary dichotomy between them.
StAnastasia
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edwest2
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Go to any atheist web site. Their logic is based on the same ‘mountains of evidence’ that supposedly exist for evolution. Go ahead. I won’t post links. You’ll read how ‘evidence trumps all.’ No evidence for God? Then no God.
The atheist I encountered over 30 years ago put it less formally. “Show me God. If you can show me God I might believe in him.”
Billboard: Praise Darwin. Evolve beyond belief.
Bus: Man created God.
Evolutionary Psychology. Yeah, it’s all about ‘the evidence.’
It doesn’t have to be this way.
Peace,
Ed
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edwest2
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What!? They te… tell… their students, in like science class!?
Isn’t that illegal? Yeah, sure, there’s noooo problem between Biology textbook evolution and Church teaching.
Peace,
Ed
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sambos671
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I don’t think they are mutually exclusive. We’ll maybe on the Macro Level but not in the Micro. I was reading the Catholic Study bible’s introduction commentary (New American Bible) on this part of Genesis and it states the most likely senario of genesis is that Days 1-6 are outlined. Days 1-3 being general creation and days 4-6 being more specific. But really should we use Genesis as a scientific text? Or As a series of passages assuring us that God did indeed create the universe in such a fashion as to have order and that God himself is above all creation and things that were then perceived to be gods? Do I have to believe that Noah brought dinosaur eggs on the ark or that they a some demonic invention in order to have faith?What!? They te… tell… their students, in like science class!?
Isn’t that illegal? Yeah, sure, there’s noooo problem between Biology textbook evolution and Church teaching.
Peace,
Ed
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reggieM
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My issue is that Ken Miller is not a credible spokesperson for Catholicism. This reveals a problem that goes beyond science education alone.
For example, if a pro-abortion advocate said “there is no discrepancy between pro-abortion views and Catholicism”, they could validate that by stating:
“There are thousands of Catholic politicians, academics, business persons and scientists who accept that abortion is morally permissable. They attend Mass and express their support for abortion rights, and they witness to their community that there no necessary dichotomy between abortion and Catholicism.”
Now someone could point out all sorts of condemnations for that view from Catholic teaching – but the fact remains, there are many Catholics who dissent against Church teaching.
This is true of many who find no incompatibility between evolution and the Catholic faith also.
Those might also say: "The reason some people think that abortion-rights conflict with Catholicism is that they really haven’t been educated well-enough in Catholicism. They should know that the Catholic faith does not treat magisterial texts literally – and Catholic dogmas change. So, it’s only ignorance of Catholicism that causes people to think that abortion is immoral. In fact, priests who teach that abortion is forbidden are actually causing more people to become atheists – because when they grow up and realize that virtually all of the popular celebrities, pop stars and liberal theologians in the world support abortion rights – then they will look with contempt on the unsophisticated views they received in their Catholic education and turn away - becoming atheists.
I point this out to say that the argument is not convincing in that way.
If there are prominent orthodox, faithful, devout Catholic scientists who see no problem with evolutionary theory – those would be better examples to use than Ken Miller.
Evolution claims to teach the origin of human beings through a materialistic process.
That is in direct conflict with the Catholic Faith.
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