Intelligent design

[davidv]

I don’t understand your answer. What you are saying is that free will is a part of divine power so it dose not need to be designed. My question from you is then does God knows what free will is? By know I mean that it knows free will’s outcome in every situation.

God knows all that can be known - this is the definition of omniscience. Regardless of our choice of good over evil or evil over good, He knows the outcome.

 

[tonyrey]

I don’t understand your answer. What you are saying is that free will is a part of divine power so it does not need to be designed.

Yes! It is a dim reflection of divine power because our free will is restricted by our circumstances.
My question from you is then does God knows what free will is? By know I mean that it knows free will’s outcome in every situation.
God knows the outcome of free will in every possible situation but unless we are omniscient we cannot know the exact extent of reality, let alone possibility. To think otherwise is sheer presumption…

 

[tonyrey]

God knows all that can be known - this is the definition of omniscience. Regardless of our choice of good over evil or evil over good, He knows the outcome.

“can” is the key word. We do not know precisely what is (un)knowable…

 

[Bahman]

God knows all that can be known - this is the definition of omniscience. Regardless of our choice of good over evil or evil over good, He knows the outcome.

That means that we are simple device from God point of view since our actions are known in different situations. In another world the fact that we think that we decide is an illusion and our actions in given situation are the outcome of the sole situations, meaning that there is no me that decide about a situation and that is the situation that defines the outcome.

 

[Bahman]

Yes! It is a dim reflection of divine power because our free will is restricted by our circumstances.

My question from you is then does God knows what free will is? By know I mean that it knows free will’s outcome in every situation.
God knows the outcome of free will in every possible situation but unless we are omniscient we cannot know the exact extent of reality, let alone possibility. To think otherwise is sheer presumption…

Please read post #24 and thank you very much for your post.

 

[davidv]

That means that we are simple device from God point of view since our actions are known in different situations.

No it does not mean that. Nor does it follow logically.

In another world the fact that we think that we decide is an illusion and our actions in given situation are the outcome of the sole situations, meaning that there is no me that decide about a situation and that is the situation that defines the outcome.

Where is this other world?

 

[MPat]

First, designing an agent means that agent functioning is know in every situations.

That would be great news for all programmers! The programmer would always know how his program would run. If only that was close to truth…

Or do you mean something else by “designing”, “agent”, “functioning” or “know”…? It would be a good idea to define those terms…

 

[tonyrey]

My question from you is then does God knows what free will is? By know I mean that it knows free will’s outcome in every situation.

Please read post #24 and thank you very much for your post.

Thank you very much for your reply.

I cannot think of a good reason why the Creator wouldn’t know His creatures’ decisions. Can you?

“In Him we live, move and have our being”… At every moment He is giving all our power as well as our very existence.

 

[Bahman]

No it does not mean that. Nor does it follow logically.

Is God aware of our decisions in every situation? How could God know everything that is going to happen if it does not know our decisions?

Where is this other world?

I meant “word”, sorry for typo.

 

[Bahman]

That would be great news for all programmers! The programmer would always know how his program would run. If only that was close to truth…

Or do you mean something else by “designing”, “agent”, “functioning” or “know”…? It would be a good idea to define those terms…

I don’t understand what would be the deference?

To be clear I define:

1. Agent is a being with a specific functioning depending on a situation
2. Design is plan for building/creating a being with specific functioning
3. Functioning is the operation in particular/designed way

God omniscience means that the design can be perfectly done so agent act accordingly depending on the situation.

 

[Bahman]

Thank you very much for your reply.

I cannot think of a good reason why the Creator wouldn’t know His creatures’ decisions. Can you?

“In Him we live, move and have our being”… At every moment He is giving all our power as well as our very existence.

If God knows our decision then here we get a picture that you don’t like it: From God perspective everything is deterministic, so the creation (beings and object) is working in deterministic manner. Why? From God perspective the actions of all beings is known so God can use this knowledge and have the evolution of universe over time, using the fact that the knowledge of state of creation at a given time (beings and objects) determines the state of creating in later time. Following this argument God can know the whole state of creation from beginning to the end, what you call it omniscience. The only problem in this picture is as it was mentioned, that thing evolve in deterministic way from God point of view so it is deterministic in its nature. In another word we are trap in creation that we could not know what is the outcome of our decision since we don’t know what is free will.

 

[tonyrey]

If God knows our decision then here we get a picture that you don’t like it: From God perspective everything is deterministic, so the creation (beings and object) is working in deterministic manner. Why? From God perspective the actions of all beings is known so God can use this knowledge and have the evolution of universe over time, using the fact that the knowledge of state of creation at a given time (beings and objects) determines the state of creating in later time. Following this argument God can know the whole state of creation from beginning to the end, what you call it omniscience. The only problem in this picture is as it was mentioned, that thing evolve in deterministic way from God point of view so it is deterministic in its nature. In another word we are trap in creation that we could not know what is the outcome of our decision since we don’t know what is free will.

It is necessary to prove that everything is deterministic from God’s perspective.

Knowledge is not the same as causation.

You are also implying that God cannot create independent persons…

 

[Bahman]

It is necessary to prove that everything is deterministic from God’s perspective.

Exactly, and that is what I did. If you wish I can expand the proof. God omniscience in strong form means that everything behaves in deterministic manner from God point of view, so it is deterministic in its nature.

Knowledge is not the same as causation.

I didn’t say so.

You are also implying that God cannot create independent persons…

I didn’t say that. I said the omniscience in its strong form leads to this problem. In another word creating a person implies that God could not have the knowledge on person decision, otherwise everything is deterministic.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . creating a person implies that God could not have the knowledge on person decision, otherwise everything is deterministic.

As a result of a myriad of choices you have made through the years, you find yourself sitting here, reading this.
You may think that it was out of your control, but actually it was your actions/decisions in those circumstances that now results in your being here.
There are trivial decisions and also life-changing moral choices.

Those moments cannot be now undone, but the future lies open, your destiny decided by your free will.
As you exist in this moment, God exists in all moments. Your future choices, like your past, are part of His Eternal Now.

Although you have clearly participated in becoming who you are, you did (do) not create the totality that is yourself.
He has created you to be your individual incarnation of human nature.

We may mean different things when we use the term “Intelligent Design”.

We are all made to take part in God’s grand design, which manifests His glory, goodness and beauty.
One decides how one will play that part.
Satan, who rebelled possibly at being given the role of bringing the merssage of God’s love to lowly man, could not avoid his destiny; by seducing mankind, he would have made necessary the incarnation of the Word, demonstrating God’s love for us.

 

[Bahman]

As a result of a myriad of choices you have made through the years, you find yourself sitting here, reading this.
You may think that it was out of your control, but actually it was your actions/decisions in those circumstances that now results in your being here.
There are trivial decisions and also life-changing moral choices.

Those moments cannot be now undone, but the future lies open, your destiny decided by your free will.
As you exist in this moment, God exists in all moments. Your future choices, like your past, are part of His Eternal Now.

Although you have clearly participated in becoming who you are, you did (do) not create the totality that is yourself.
He has created you to be your individual incarnation of human nature.

We may mean different things when we use the term “Intelligent Design”.

We are all made to take part in God’s grand design, which manifests His glory, goodness and beauty.
One decides how one will play that part.
Satan, who rebelled possibly at being given the role of bringing the merssage of God’s love to lowly man, could not avoid his destiny; by seducing mankind, he would have made necessary the incarnation of the Word, demonstrating God’s love for us.

Thank you very much for your long post.

There is a however a question as following: Does God know your future and the result of decisions you will make in future?

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Does God know your future and the result of decisions you will make in future?

I believe so.
What is future to me, here and now, is eternally present in His Here and Now.
As the Source or Ground, as Creator, He is “in” everything, everywhere and all times.
I am created as a being with free will and thus participate in the formation of my destiny.
It perhaps can be understood that all is happening now within eternity: I am born, die, decide this or that.
My existence isn’t so much set in stone as it is that each moment emerges from that eternal Now at each point.
As fresh and new as this moment is, all my moments exist in that fashion for Him.

 

[davidv]

Is God aware of our decisions in every situation? How could God know everything that is going to happen if it does not know our decisions?

This has been answered in multiple posts by several posters. What don’t you understand of the answers provided?

I meant “word”, sorry for typo.

OK.

 

[tonyrey]

Exactly, and that is what I did. If you wish I can expand the proof. God omniscience in strong form means that everything behaves in deterministic manner from God point of view, so it is deterministic in its nature.

This is contradicted by your next statement:

Knowledge is not the same as causation.

I didn’t say so.

You can’t have it both ways!

I didn’t say that. I said the omniscience in its strong form leads to this problem. In another word creating a person implies that God could not have the knowledge on person decision, otherwise everything is deterministic.

You are simply repeating your view that omniscience, i.e. knowledge, entails causation. Why do you believe that?

 

[Bahman]

This is contradicted by your next statement:You can’t have it both ways!

You are simply repeating your view that omniscience, i.e. knowledge, entails causation. Why do you believe that?

Here is the argument that shows that everything behaves in deterministic manner from God point of view assuming omniscience in strong form:

1. God knows actions of all beings in creation in every given situations (omniscience)
2. This means that God knows the state of creation in a later time given the state of creation in earlier time since it know actions of beings in creation
3. This means that God knows the state of universe in every given time by knowledge of state of creating in its starting
4. This means that creation evolves in deterministic manner from God point of view.

As you can see I didn’t use that the knowldege of God causes an effect in the above argument.

 

[Bahman]

I believe so.
What is future to me, here and now, is eternally present in His Here and Now.
As the Source or Ground, as Creator, He is “in” everything, everywhere and all times.
I am created as a being with free will and thus participate in the formation of my destiny.
It perhaps can be understood that all is happening now within eternity: I am born, die, decide this or that.
My existence isn’t so much set in stone as it is that each moment emerges from that eternal Now at each point.
As fresh and new as this moment is, all my moments exist in that fashion for Him.

So please read read post #39.