Intelligent Design

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arieh0310

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I have noticed that some people think that the only people who believe in intelligent design are a bunch of Fundamentalist mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers. However, the leading advocate of intelligent design in America is a Catholic professor of Biological Sciences named Michael Behe. Here is an article

He is also a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute

Food for thought…
 
I think Behe brilliant and his opposition desperate. How many people have lost their jobs in the field of science just for disagreeing about a theory? The article cited: “Lehigh’s biology department sought to distance itself from Behe in August, posting a statement on its Web site that says the faculty ‘are unequivocal in their support of evolutionary theory.’ He earned tenure at Lehigh before becoming a proponent, which lets him express his views without the threat of losing his job.” They simply do not want to admit that creation has a creator who, like a computer programmer (not a perfect analogy but good enough for our needs here) wrote into DNA the program of life and can change that programming, just like any other programmer, at will.
 
What is hilarious is when an archeologist finds an arrowhead in the dirt he will proclaim that it must have been created by someone. However, a biologist will look at the irreducible complexity of a life-form and proclaim it an accident.
 
There is a story about a young scientist traveling by train who encountered an older man praying the rosary. The young man made comments to the effect that men of science did not believe in such superstitions…etc. As the train came into the station, the older man presented the younger with his card. On it was the name Louis Pasteur.
 
As the article points out, the intelligent design concept does not identify the Designer. Intelligent design is not the same as Creationism, which applies a literal Biblical interpretation to the beginning of life and typically applies a timeframe to creation that ties the “days” of creation to some other Biblical definitions for “day”. Often cited is the passage that says “A day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as a day…” wherein creation is said to have taken 6,000 years. Creationism argues against evolution from one type of creature to another (diversity of similar species within a type is allowed for by some) and depends upon a single creation event to account for all types of creatures. Some have tried to postulate a series of creation events to explain the fossil record and deal with the geologic concept of superposition, but they have a hard time lining this up with Scripture.

Intelligent design doesn’t try to explain how life began, it is simply a concept that says, “Hey, when you examine the complexities of life on earth and in the physical universe, there is clear evidence of intelligence behind all these systems.” The analogy that is often used is that if you were walking on the beach and discovered a watch, with no other evidence than the design of the watch, one could conclude that it was not the product of random collision of molecules and that a watchmaker must exist. Intelligent design doesn’t rule out multiple creation events, some level of evolutionary change or an ancient earth. It doesn’t hold to any of these concepts either, in other words, it doesn’t go that far.

Intelligent design is perfectly compatible with Catholic theology and, IMO, is just a starting point. Strict Creationism, on the other hand, is not cosistent with the Church’s interpretation of Genesis because it applies a literal interpretation to the creation account, which is problematic, especially in light of the scientific evidence.
 
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JimO:
Intelligent design is perfectly compatible with Catholic theology and, IMO, is just a starting point. Strict Creationism, on the other hand, is not cosistent with the Church’s interpretation of Genesis because it applies a literal interpretation to the creation account, which is problematic, especially in light of the scientific evidence.
Well, actually a literal interpretation of Genesis isn’t in opposition to Church teaching, mandating that the literal interpretation is the only correct view is. I happen to think that “day=24 hours” is silly, but people are free to interpret it that way. The majority of the Early Church Fathers took a literal interpretation of Genesis.
 
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arieh0310:
Well, actually a literal interpretation of Genesis isn’t in opposition to Church teaching, mandating that the literal interpretation is the only correct view is. I happen to think that “day=24 hours” is silly, but people are free to interpret it that way. The majority of the Early Church Fathers took a literal interpretation of Genesis.
You’re correct, it isn’t contrary to Church teaching to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. However, being a geologist, I have found it problematic to try to argue a literal interpretation of the creation account with other scientists in light of the fossil record. The most important passage in the creation account to me is, “In the beginning, when God created…”. I don’t believe that Genesis was intended to tell us scientifically or historically how this happened, but simply that it did happen and what our relationship as creatures are to Him.
 
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arieh0310:
I was using hyperbole. I do not think that creationists are that way, but that is how they are treated sometimes by the opposition.
Oooooh, good. Sorry then. My stupidity. Sorry.

quick, superficial reads

Geh.

-Rob
 
Intelligent Design on one of the proofs of God’s existence. The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that:

35
Man’s faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith. The proofs of God’s existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

Intelligent Design is philosophy and not science. The Catechism explains

31
Created in God’s image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of “converging and convincing arguments,” which allow us to attain certainty about the truth.
 
I am so delighted to see Catholics that still believe in the traditional creation account. 😃
 
The best quote I have ever heard:
If Man evolved from Apes, then why are there still Apes?
 
Catholic Dude:
The best quote I have ever heard:
If Man evolved from Apes, then why are there still Apes?
That’s a great point, but their response would be that somewhere along the line either the apes of today were isolated and maintained their apeness or that a group of apes became isolated and evolved into Man. Either way, it’s a pretty weak argument on their part. :rolleyes:

Here are links to sites that have some free creation videos to watch online. They’re pretty good, but just remember that most of them are Fundamentalist Protestants.

christiananswers.net/creation/aqoo/home.html
nwcreation.net/videos.html
 
Catholic Dude:
The best quote I have ever heard:
If Man evolved from Apes, then why are there still Apes?
Sorry to tell you, but this is a truly mediocre point. There is no reason of logic that would require that apes stop existing when humans evolved.This did not occur at a single point in time but over many thousands of generations.

If the apes could live and thrive in enviroments that did not give preferential survivability and reproducibility to changes in individuals in a local population, then there is no reason at all that those changes would have led to anything other than apes, a successful adaptation. Humans were a different successful adaptation. (perhaps some would disagree as to how successful humans have been :rolleyes: ).

I think scientists just disagree that ID should be taught in the science classroom. Especially since fundamentalist protestant creationists would like to use this idea to just shoehorn in their discredited literalistic account of creation.

I think, what ever the real truth is, both scientists and non-scientists are going to be amazed!
 
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zian:
I think scientists just disagree that ID should be taught in the science classroom. Especially since fundamentalist protestant creationists would like to use this idea to just shoehorn in their discredited literalistic account of creation.

I think, what ever the real truth is, both scientists and non-scientists are going to be amazed!
Thank you, thank you for your thoughtful post. I hesitated to jump in because so few people are willing to understand the nature of all this, they are just interested in taking sides and drawing lines in the sand.

I am a science educator, scientist and theist. I don’t disbelieve ID, I just recognize that it is not science. Natural evidence points to evolution, and natural evidence is what science deals with. Science deals with the what, and sometimes the how, but it doesn’t answer the who and why, the philisophical part of occurances.

Clearly, from studying the world around me, everything is amazingly complex and interconnected. I recognize the divine in everything, nothing I ever learn or study about the natural world takes one thing away from the divine. The more I learn, the more in awe I am. But that is no reason to stop looking and learning how it all works together.

The overwhelming thing to me, is that the divine did not choose to use magic to create and to make things work together, but rather chose a much more complex, ingenious, elegant system of cooperation. It is MIND BLOWING. I was about to cash in on the idea of God, but studying science made me realize that the divine was real, amazing and worthy of awe and worship. Much more so than if the divine had used “magic” to make it happen. The lavish amount of care and delicacy that went into the design humbles me as a part of creation.

cheddar
 
So do most people here think the argument from irreducible complexity invalid? I find sites that explain the eye to be an amazingly weak argument against irreducible complexity. It seems to me that irreducible complexity is dismissed if one can simply posit how evolution “could” have made it happen. That does not seem like science either.

It seems that if an organelle provides a role through a mechanism that could not have provided that role in an earlier function that that would be a sign of irreducible complexity. Are there such signs? Honestly I am hard pressed to think of any.

Though first causes for these behaviors seems to be a mystery too. If Spiders make webs of increasingly geometric perfection based on hunting success lending to natural selection, what gave rise to the spider who first spun a web?
 
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JimO:
You’re correct, it isn’t contrary to Church teaching to believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. However, being a geologist, I have found it problematic to try to argue a literal interpretation of the creation account with other scientists in light of the fossil record. The most important passage in the creation account to me is, “In the beginning, when God created…”. I don’t believe that Genesis was intended to tell us scientifically or historically how this happened, but simply that it did happen and what our relationship as creatures are to Him.
If I may ask an impertinent question; How as a scientist do you defend to other scientists transubstantiation?

If you find the creation account problematic to argue, how on earth can you argue for the Real Presence?

It seems to me that Catholics are granting the materialistic objections of sceptics. The same acid that eats away at the creation account eats away at the other parts of faith as well.

Blessings,
Richard
 
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Richard_Hurtz:
If I may ask an impertinent question; How as a scientist do you defend to other scientists transubstantiation?

If you find the creation account problematic to argue, how on earth can you argue for the Real Presence?

It seems to me that Catholics are granting the materialistic objections of sceptics. The same acid that eats away at the creation account eats away at the other parts of faith as well.

Blessings,
Richard
Hello Richard,
Transubstantiation is pure mystery. There is no way to scientifically analyze it; therefore, I do not try to defend it scientifically any more than I try to defend the existence of the soul, the Trinity or any other spiritual/philosophical element of the faith. The beginning of life, on the other hand has significant scientific implications. There is the fossil record to contend with, for one thing, a big thing I might add.

Attempting to reconcile Scripture with geologic evidence is not “granting the materialistic objections of sceptics”. I have found that scientists are willing to accept that purely spiritual concepts have no scientific explanations, however, people of faith lose objective credibility when we try to ignore scientific data.

Our understanding of Scripture passages has changed as scientific data has come to light. I’ll give an example. When Gallileo postulated that the earth orbited the sun, based on the mathematical theories of Copernicus, this was a revolutionary concept in science. It didn’t line up with empirical observations because every morning people could clearly see the sun “rise”, “move” across the sky and “set”. It also didn’t line up with the contemporary interpretation of several Scripture verses, such as when the “sun stood still”. How could the sun stand still if it wasn’t moving? For nearly 200 years this was only a theory until it was shown in the early 1800s that the earth did indeed orbit around the sun. Did this undermine Scripture? No. It simply changed our understanding of some Scripture passages. The same can be said for the creation account in Genesis. Many people assume that the account was meant to be taken literally, as though it were intended as a science text or historical account. If they are wrong does that undermine Scripture? No.

Science may shed light on how life was created, but that won’t change the fact that God created life. Science can debate how the human body came to be, but science will never shed light on how the first soul came to be. That, like transubstantiation, is a matter of faith alone. In my personal opinion, it doesn’t matter to me how God chose to create the human body, whether instantaneously or through some evolutionary process. That is immaterial compared to His creation of the first human soul (Adam) and that of his spouse (Eve). Science pales when considering the wonder of the infusion of a new soul into a fertilized egg. We don’t have to defend matters of faith to our scientific colleagues, but we do have to deal with scientific data, whether we choose to engage in the debate or ignore the data.
 
ID is a nice philosophical hypothesis. It’s a nice idea about how complexity arose.

Science is not simply about hypotheses and ideas. Science is about observable, intersubjective evidence for such ideas.

ID states “the human is too complex to have evolved via natural causes”. OK, that’s an idea that might be true or not true, but rejecting the possibility of natural causes for the appearance of the eye automatically takes ID out of science (since a “supernatural” cause is not observable by all), and thus out of science classes.

The only way ID could become “science” is if it proposes that some sort of empirically observable intelligence created the eye, or other complex systems. So either God is in fact a physical being (as the Mormons say), or aliens were involved. Either possibility does not bode well for Protestant creationism.:eek:
 
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