Intention to sin as bad as sinning?

[AdriannaJean]

Problematic question here:

Is the intention to commit a sin that, due to some unforeseen circumstances, does not get committed as bad as actually committing the sin?

Hypothetical situation:

Person “A” is going to have to meet their significant other (“B”)'s parents at Mass and is so frightened at the thought of that, “A” intends to fake sick and not attend Mass. Then “B” informs “A” that “B”'s parents will not be at Mass, so “A” attends Mass.

“A” did not commit the sin of missing Sunday Mass, but had every intention to if “B”'s parents were in fact coming. Has “A” committed a sin?

All responses and arguments are welcome, but quoting any church documents (Catechism, papal pronouncements etc.) would be extremely appreciated.

 

[Bookcat]

Problematic question here:

Is the intention to commit a sin that, due to some unforeseen circumstances, does not get committed as bad as actually committing the sin?

All responses and arguments are welcome, but quoting any church documents (Catechism, papal pronouncements etc.) would be extremely appreciated.

Yes in the sense that the intention to sin is already a sin…even if you are not able to carry it out…or later change your mind (of course if one can do it and does …it is even worse)

If it was a grave matter (like not going to Sunday Mass without excusing reason) and one has the other aspects for mortal sin…it is mortal.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

I don’t think so. I mean, it may be a venial sin, but not a mortal one. Personally, I believe that God gives us the grace sometimes to not have the opportunity to sin because He knows our weaknesses and may be giving us time to sort them out without actually committing the act of sinning. The old saying that God never gives us more than He knows we can handle applies here.

If hypothetical sins counted, wouldn’t we all be guilty of something? For example, if someone’s daughter is murdered, and you asked the father if he would kill the murderer in cold blood were he given the chance, he may very well say yes. Thankfully for the father, God does not actually give him the opportunity to do so, knowing that in a moment of weakness, the father would most surely commit murder. Is this man guilty of murder anyway? Of course not.

 

[Bookcat]

I don’t think so. I mean, it may be a venial sin, but not a mortal one.

If hypothetical sins counted, wouldn’t we all be guilty of something? .

This is not correct.

To intend the sin and not be able to carry it out…is already a sin. It is not a “Hypotheical sin” but an act of the will…a choice. Just one that one did not end up carrying to action (which would make it worse if one did).

And yes it can be mortal…

If I decide to murder you…and then decide not to for fear of getting caught…I still sinned…and if with full knowledge and complete consent…such was mortal.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

This is not correct.

To intend the sin and not be able to carry it out…is already a sin. It is not a “Hypotheical sin” but an act of the will…a choice. Just one that one did not end up carrying to action (which would make it worse if one did).

And yes it can be mortal…

If I decide to murder you…and then decide not to for fear of getting caught…I still sinned…and if with full knowledge and complete consent…such was mortal.

But you committed no ACT. A mortal sin requires action on the part of the sinner. There is a huge difference between deciding to do something awful and actually completing the action itself. If a man decides to kill someone and then has a change of heart, he is certainly guilty of something, but that does not equate to murder or a mortal sin. Put another way, if someone killed my family and I had the chance, I believe that I would kill them. Am I guilty of murder right now just for thinking this? Of course not!

Here is what the Catechism says:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

 

[Neithan]

This is not correct.

To intend the sin and not be able to carry it out…is already a sin. It is not a “Hypotheical sin” but an act of the will…a choice. Just one that one did not end up carrying to action (which would make it worse if one did).

And yes it can be mortal…

If I decide to murder you…and then decide not to for fear of getting caught…I still sinned…and if with full knowledge and complete consent…such was mortal.

I don’t think so. A mortal sin requires grave matter. If the matter is not there (no physical action takes place) then how can it be mortal?
It is possible for grave matter to be in the imagination, however, but that would require deliberately inducing a fantasy and giving it full consent. Barring that, there is no mortal sin.

Also, in the OP case, I doubt whether full consent is there either. The whole “I will do this IF that happens” situation shows that the consent to sin is conditional, and commitment is lacking.

 

[wjp984]

I think it depends on the situation. For simply moral sins such as missing mass I do not think the original intent was a sin. As a previous poster mentioned, it was probably a temptation and God provided the appropriate situaton to help you reject the temptation to sin. However, I think a comparrison to criminal secular law is appropriate to determine when an intent stopped by an interveining cause would be a sin:

Attempted Murder is a crime and in fact punished quite severely almost to the same extent as completing the actual murder:

Person A has a gun believing it to be loaded with the full intent of killing the person. He shoots and the gun does not fire and then the police come and make an arrest.

This would both be an attempted murder and a mortal sin probably equivlant to murder even though the desire act was not actually completed.

 

[Neithan]

I think it depends on the situation. For simply moral sins such as missing mass I do not think the original intent was a sin. As a previous poster mentioned, it was probably a temptation and God provided the appropriate situaton to help you reject the temptation to sin. However, I think a comparrison to criminal secular law is appropriate to determine when an intent stopped by an interveining cause would be a sin:

Attempted Murder is a crime and in fact punished quite severely almost to the same extent as completing the actual murder:

Person A has a gun believing it to be loaded with the full intent of killing the person. He shoots and the gun does not fire and then the police come and make an arrest.

This would both be an attempted murder and a mortal sin probably equivlant to murder even though the desire act was not actually completed.

yeah that’s an example of ‘efficacious desire’ where there is full deliberation and intent for a grave sin, which imputes the same guilt as the act itself.

 

[catholictiger]

Problematic question here:

Is the intention to commit a sin that, due to some unforeseen circumstances, does not get committed as bad as actually committing the sin?

Hypothetical situation:

Person “A” is going to have to meet their significant other (“B”)'s parents at Mass and is so frightened at the thought of that, “A” intends to fake sick and not attend Mass. Then “B” informs “A” that “B”'s parents will not be at Mass, so “A” attends Mass.

“A” did not commit the sin of missing Sunday Mass, but had every intention to if “B”'s parents were in fact coming. Has “A” committed a sin?

All responses and arguments are welcome, but quoting any church documents (Catechism, papal pronouncements etc.) would be extremely appreciated.

here is what I think if the person is only thinking about it, thinking of ways to get out of it then its really only venal in nature maybe not even a sin if he is just thinking it. You must remember that satan will temp you many times by making you see yourself committing the sin but you thinking about committing something isn’t a sin untill you actually commit the sin.

but in your situation I would tell the person who is worried if he is committing the sin or not, to not think about that and just go to mass. You should ask him the difficult question does seeing your significant other at mass effect your ability to fully partake in the mass, or even in some situations actually attend mass. This person should change his mindset of the mass, he should have the mindset that I’m attending mass so that I may grow in my relationship with Christ and partake in something that can transform my life. Not I get to see my sig other at this mass and I really want to see her, I just hope her parents aren’t there cause i don’t think they like me as much. “or something along the lines of that”

while I don’t think this situation is necessarily a sin, you shouldn’t really be asking this question.

at-least that’s my 2 cents on this

 

[Bookcat]

But you committed no ACT. A mortal sin requires action on the part of the sinner. There is a huge difference between deciding to do something awful and actually completing the action itself. If a man decides to kill someone and then has a change of heart, he is certainly guilty of something, but that does not equate to murder or a mortal sin. Put another way, if someone killed my family and I had the chance, I believe that I would kill them. Am I guilty of murder right now just for thinking this? Of course not!

Here is what the Catechism says:

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: "Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent."131

One can very much sin just in ones thoughts…or by intending (for example choosing internally to do a sinful thing)

One has grave matter (choosing in one will to commit a mortal sin), with full knowledge (one knows it is grave matter and has sufficient reflection here) and one gives deliberate consent (internally…that is where consent happens) even though one changes and does not carry it out.

NO EXTERNAL ACTION is required to commit a mortal sin…

(and one should also never “will to murder” in ones thoughts…one should only will the good)

Jesus was very serious about this…one can sin mortally in ones thoughts.

Yes to choose to murder someone (in ones thoughts) can be a moral sin…to carry it out in action of course is worse!

 

[Bookcat]

I don’t think so. A mortal sin requires grave matter. If the matter is not there (no physical action takes place) then how can it be mortal?

Yes there is Grave matter …Physical action NOT required for grave matter.

 

[Bookcat]

Choosing to commit adultery
Choosing to murder someone
Choosing to steal $100,000
Choosing to desecrate Church
Choosing to skip Sunday Mass without excusing reason

all are already grave matter…even if one changes ones choice…or is prevented from doing so…

Sin can happen in ones will without carrying it out in action…

and if done (chosen…in ones thoughts) with full knowledge and complete consent…such can thus be a mortal sin.

 

[fhansen]

I think a less ambigous example would be one such as:

Jack was competing with a fellow worker for a promotion when he heard that the other had outperformed him and was bound to win the promotion. This angered Jack, who felt he deserved the job anyway, and he plotted to eliminate his competition by killing him.The following evening Jack was hiding outside the co-workers house when he returned home. Jack raised his pistol, pointing it at his intended victim and had almost pulled the trigger when the co-worker, unaware of Jacks’ presence, clutched his chest in pain and fell to the ground, dying then and there of a massive heart attack. Jack went home and slept well, knowing he would receive the promotion the next day.

Was Jack guilty of murder? According to our legal system, no. But according to Jesus’ teachings on the Sermon on the Mount, probably yes.

God judges by the heart, according to scripture, while man judges by appearances. And God’s all about getting our hearts in the right place, first and foremost, in order for us to be truly just.

 

[Bookcat]

of course one can also sin mortally in ones thoughts alone a well without any intent on action…such as in the case of lustful thoughts

 

[wjp984]

Here’s an interesting perspective I thought about: What if a person is fully intent at the time of missing mass because they plan on going to the beach and staying there all day instead. Or any number of reasons why a person would at one moment be intent on missing mass.

Now, one can theoretically go to mass and meet the obligation at any mass before midnight Sunday. Therefore the actual act of committing a sin would not be official until after the last available mass is over. There are 5 pm, 7pm, and even 9pm masses at certain places.

So in this example, the person is killed in a car accident before the day is over and before the last available mass was over. He was otherwise in a state of grace. Did he sin mortally because of his present intent that very well may have changed?

In theory, the person can change his mind and decide to go to church. In fact I have done this myself on Sundays at times, pondering throughout the day whether I want to leave early from an event I’m at or go to a late mass when I didn’t get up on time for the early masses, or when I am busy writing a paper and debate whether I will go to that late mass or just say a couple hail marries and continue working on my paper.

As far as I can recall, while I’m hesitant to say every, I can confidently say the overwhelming majority of times I formed an original intent to miss mass I felt guilty and changed my mind before the day ended.

So was the original intent a sin? Is the person kille before officially committing the sin damned to Hell?

 

[Koko81]

Question is… why you want to LYE about something?

 

[Thoughtfulone]

One can very much sin just in ones thoughts…or by intending (for example choosing internally to do a sinful thing)

One has grave matter (choosing in one will to commit a mortal sin), with full knowledge (one knows it is grave matter and has sufficient reflection here) and one gives deliberate consent (internally…that is where consent happens) even though one changes and does not carry it out.

NO EXTERNAL ACTION is required to commit a mortal sin…

(and one should also never “will to murder” in ones thoughts…one should only will the good)

Jesus was very serious about this…one can sin mortally in ones thoughts.

Yes to choose to murder someone (in ones thoughts) can be a moral sin…to carry it out in action of course is worse!

Not true. What Jesus said was that the man who lusts after another woman commits adultery in his heart. He did not say that this was equivalent to a mortal sin. In fact, if you read the Bible passage pertaining to this (Matthew 5), you will see that what Jesus is saying is that thought can be a precursor to sin.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

In other words, be watchful of your smallest thoughts and actions lest they lead you into committing a mortal sin. Committing adultery in one’s heart brings one that much closer to committing it in deed (not to mention that it breaks the commandment about covetousness, which is already a mortal sin).

And you say that murdering someone in thought is a mortal sin, but that doing it in deed is worse? There is nothing worse than a mortal sin. That’s as bad as it gets!

One can commit venial sins in thought, but only when one actually takes physical steps to carry out the action is one guilty of mortal sin.

Let’s not make Catholicism any more difficult than it already is…not to mention causing those who are scrupulous tremendous anxiety about their every single thought.

 

[Thoughtfulone]

Here’s an interesting perspective I thought about: What if a person is fully intent at the time of missing mass because they plan on going to the beach and staying there all day instead. Or any number of reasons why a person would at one moment be intent on missing mass.

Now, one can theoretically go to mass and meet the obligation at any mass before midnight Sunday. Therefore the actual act of committing a sin would not be official until after the last available mass is over. There are 5 pm, 7pm, and even 9pm masses at certain places.

So in this example, the person is killed in a car accident before the day is over and before the last available mass was over. He was otherwise in a state of grace. Did he sin mortally because of his present intent that very well may have changed?

In theory, the person can change his mind and decide to go to church. In fact I have done this myself on Sundays at times, pondering throughout the day whether I want to leave early from an event I’m at or go to a late mass when I didn’t get up on time for the early masses, or when I am busy writing a paper and debate whether I will go to that late mass or just say a couple hail marries and continue working on my paper.

As far as I can recall, while I’m hesitant to say every, I can confidently say the overwhelming majority of times I formed an original intent to miss mass I felt guilty and changed my mind before the day ended.

So was the original intent a sin? Is the person kille before officially committing the sin damned to Hell?

This is exactly why one cannot sin mortally unless one actually commits or takes the steps to commit the act itself. God often gives us the grace and opportunity to change our hearts and minds and to avoid temptation.

 

[Bookcat]

Not true. yes it is true

What Jesus said was that the man who lusts after another woman commits adultery in his heart. He did not say that this was equivalent to a mortal sin. In fact, if you read the Bible passage pertaining to this (Matthew 5), you will see that what Jesus is saying is that thought can be a precursor to sin.

In other words, be watchful of your smallest thoughts and actions lest they lead you into committing a mortal sin. Committing adultery in one’s heart brings one that much closer to committing it in deed (not to mention that it breaks the commandment about covetousness, which is already a mortal sin).

Jesus said that the person who looks with lust has “already” committed **adultery **in his heart. Adultery then as now is very serious sin!

Jesus was not saying that the smallest thought could lead to mortal sin…but that the person …without the action of adultery …but only the lust …the thought…had “already” committed (past tense) adultery.

And you say that murdering someone in thought is a mortal sin, but that doing it in deed is worse? There is nothing worse than a mortal sin. That’s as bad as it gets!

There are degrees in mortal sin. If one murders a stranger it is a mortal sin…if one murders ones child or ones mother or the Pope it is a worse mortal sin. Or if it if a mortal sin is done with “malice” it is worse.

One can commit venial sins in thought, but only when one actually takes physical steps to carry out the action is one guilty of mortal sin.

This last line is not the teaching of the Church.

For example Lust is a grave matter for mortal sin (and this includes all lust…even that which is not acted upon externally.)

This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

A person can commit a mortal sin without any external action. Period. There is no room here for debate.

What I note here you can find explained more fully in various works of Catholic Moral theology…it is simply the case that one can commit a mortal sin only in ones thoughts.

Let’s not make Catholicism any more difficult than it already is…not to mention causing those who are scrupulous tremendous anxiety about their every single thought.

I am not making anything more difficult (and God gives us the grace to be holy interiorly as well as exteriorly)…this is simply the way it is theologically.

One of course still needs “full knowledge and complete consent” for the thought to be a mortal sin!!! And by the way if you read my posts …one will find that I have explained for those with such a tendency to scruples (and anyone else) who ask…all about thoughts and when they are sinful …and when not…(it is important to say what is and what is not)

Look this is simply the case…as one will find explained in various works for moral theology…

 

[fbl9]

Matter of the sin (gravity) if the sin were to committed it would be a mortal sin.
Full knowledge that committing such an act would be sinful
And using the example of the person heading to the beach full consent of the will.

In my opinion yes it consitutes a mortal sin.