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Bookcat
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Bookcat;7284184:
I do believe that if one stops of their own will, the will to commit the sin was probably never truly there to begin with and there is no mortal sin.
This can be the case** if** the person has not already made that choice…given that full consent…
Regarding your theory that one should not examine oneself or think about whether he/she would have the strength to resist various temptations, or what one would do in a certain situation, I think you are very wrong.
It is really my “theory” just go read the the Post above from the Catholic Encylopedia…and many moralists etc will say the same thing…such is not a good thing to sit around doing…and can sin. Jimmy Akin for example mentioned this on a show once…that it is not a good idea to think down that road…(even when it is not sinful)
Why should we be forced to put our heads in the sand and not think about our own weaknesses and moral limitations and postulate about what we might do if circumstances found us in a given scenario?
Such is to ask for trouble in the least. We do not know our limitations etc…we are not there…and we do not know the grace we will have…such is simply unrealistic too.
If you are the kind of person who would say, embezzle funds from work if the opportunity presented itself, then whether or not you actually THINK about it and say, “Yes, I would do that” with full consent is irrelevant. God knows right now whether you would or wouldn’t do it, without you calling it to mind and giving “consent” to the hypothetical situation.
I refer you to the Church…it is not irrelevant what we give full consent to with full knowledge…if it is grave matter…it is mortal sin (all things being equal…see CCC for details)
Either we are judged based on the situations that are ACTUALLY presented to us and our responses to them, or we are judged based on what we WOULD DO in any of an infinite number of different possible scenarios that only God can know.
no no no…we are judge on what we actually “do” and such includes the “doing” internally of an internal will to sin. A choice. God does not “judge us on what is possible for us to do”…he does no judge us on "any infinite number of different possible scenarioes!!! such are not what we choose…
In the first scenario, we are judged on how we handle our actual experiences and the events that occur in our lives. In the second, what actually happens doesn’t matter at all and it’s all a mental game.
Some things (as I have repeatedly noted) are not sinful to think (choose with consent…etc)…some things are…one must always distinguish
We might as well just sit still and think happy thoughts, try not to go too deep within ourselves and do nothing but pray.
I believe it’s the first.
We need to do good and avoid evil
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Bookcat
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Let us turn our hearts and minds to God…seeking good and avoiding evil. Thinking how e we can love him better and our neighbor…thinking of the mysteries of the Faith…
Paul puts it well in his letter to the Philippians (4:8 RSV CE)
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.”
Paul puts it well in his letter to the Philippians (4:8 RSV CE)
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.”
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Verbum_Caro
Guest
Are you saying that if the person asserts that he did, in fact, make a decision to kill and then later made a decision not too you still hold that he didn’t make a true decision to kill?
And what if someone questioned you at minute 15, asking if you are going to the grocery store? Do you say “I haven’t decided yet?” Or do you say “Yes”?
Or, lets say someone asks you to pick them up tomorrow from the movie theater. Can you decide to do that? What do you tell them? And if tomorrow morning comes and you decide not to pick them up, does that mean you never decided to pick them up? But what did you say to them yesterday?
I’m still trying to understand your position here.
Thanks,
VC
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
Well, it’s definitely easier to make a decision to pick up a friend than it is to make a decision to murder a human being…at least, I hope it is!
Considering that whether or not to pick up a friend is basically morally neutral, it is an easy decision to make and doesn’t carry with it the weight or the psychological implications that make murder a little more murky.That being said, if I told a friend that I was going to pick him/her up, I wouldn’t cancel unless something external stopped me from doing so. I can’t really see myself waking up the next day and saying, “Nah, I don’t think so”. Once I TRULY commit to picking up that friend, I’m going to do it.
As far as the question about the grocery store, I suppose that when asked, I would probably say “I think so”. Once I really decide to do something, something external generally has to happen for me to change my mind, like feeling ill suddenly, or realizing I have something more important to do that I forgot about.
Maybe what we should be defining here is “full consent of the will”. What does that mean? Is there an objective definition? Because to me, it implies firm resolve and a determined course of action. The way I see it, when I give full consent of my will regarding a course of action, you can pretty much count on it. If I tell you I will pick you up and I don’t, then you should worry, because something probably happened (unless I forgot, but I really can’t imagine forgetting to murder someone, so the analogy fails there).
To some people here, the threshold seems lower, as if one just gives full consent of the will and 2 seconds later yanks it back. I don’t really understand this mentality, which is why I think we are getting our wires crossed a bit.
I’m also very bothered by the idea that just because I can say that if someone offered me a million dollars to miss a single mass, the temptation would be too great for me to withstand puts me in a state of mortal sin. I think that’s silly and have never heard anything like this before in my life. It’s a freaking hypothetical situation and certainly not one I will ever encounter. I bet anyone on this Earth can think of something that would make them commit a mortal sin (even just knowing that one could go and confess it immediately…presumption, I know). Thankfully, God doesn’t present us with these nearly impossible choices very often because He doesn’t want to set us up to fail. The very idea that I have given some kind of “full consent” to a mortal sin just because I can say that I would sin in a hypothetical situation is absurd. Good Lord, I’m starting to feel like I’m in the Matrix.
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
Oh, and yes, I’m saying that he never really made the decision to kill, even if for a moment, he thought that he did. Anyone with a conscience cannot TRULY decide to murder someone and then say, “Oh, never mind”, and then just move on with their life, and someone without a conscience cannot commit a mortal sin as we understand it because something is psychologically wrong with them.
I really do think that with a sin like murder, some kind of action (even if that action is just in the preparation) is necessary if we are to say that the person really DECIDED to kill someone, otherwise, it’s just fantasy or self-delusion.
I really do think that with a sin like murder, some kind of action (even if that action is just in the preparation) is necessary if we are to say that the person really DECIDED to kill someone, otherwise, it’s just fantasy or self-delusion.
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fbl9
Guest
What is the sin in thinking of doing wrong unto another? It is a sin against charity, one is thinking not of the other person but only of themselve`s. As in the case of the bad driver eradication, these thoughts reflect a pride i am more worthy to be on the road than so and so.
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Bookcat
Guest
Again…I understand that you do not understand this. But this is the case. One can commit a mortal sin and never act on it. The Church and Moral theology is clear on this. Sins are of though…word…deed…etc. One does not need to act on such to commit a mortal sin. This is the Catholic teaching. More of course is involved of course in someone usually who “decides to murder” and then decides not to. …one does not just “move on with their life” after deciding to murder someone…one must confess…and work out ones problems of course…this is not a “flesh and blood” example. Real people of course have much to work out and can be complicated.
This is an example to explain a the principle.
But one can use any number of things.
With full knowledge and complete consent tonight on Friday:
A person can decide to steal $10,000 from their employer.
A person can decide to go buy pornography
A person can decide to lie under oath in court
A person can decide to not go to Mass
A person can decide to commit adultery
A person can decide to detract seriously
A person can decide to calumnate seriously
A person can decide to go look lustfully at women
A person can decide to reject the Catholic Faith
A person can decide to beat their elderly mother
A person can decide to rob a liquor store
A person can decide to get drunk (loosing their reason)
A person can decide to use contraception
etc etc etc
and thus commit mortal sin tonight on Friday…
and the next day…tomorrow on Saturdy…when it comes to actually do it…they may be prevented or they may even repent…but they have still committed (all things being equal) a mortal sin if they had full knowledge and deliberate consent.
Catholic Moral Theology will tell you that this is not a “fantasy or self-delusion” but is reality. This is simply the case. Not just some persons opinion.
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Bookcat
Guest
Summary from Catechism:
1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.
1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.
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Bookcat
Guest
Look …
Lets say a person has the thoughts …the temptations to steal $5000 from ones employer…and one is actually tempted strongly and proposals of how one could easily get away with it tonight occur to one…the money is there…one knows no one will miss it…you will not get caught…etc …
But one does not. One later …in a more calmer state think…“did I commit a mortal sin of deciding to steal that money?”…??? One is not sure…
Well from the fact that one could have easily have done the action of stealing…and gotten away with it…and from the fact that one did not. One can take such as a “sign” that one seems not to have had full knowledge and complete consent…otherwise in that situation one would have done it right then.
So I will agree that it is true that at one can perhaps take as a “sign” that one did not give full consent or have full knowledge --from the fact that you could easily done the thing one was tempted to…but did not. This is can be at times a “sign” in certain circumstances to help one judge… if one did not have the knowledge and consent needed…
Also the “compulsive thought” from OCD and the like that some suffer from (see Jimmy’s post above) is also is a different matter…
Or I can decide with full knowledge to and deliberate consent to steal the money…I freely will to do this…even though I know it is gravely sinful. Such is mortal sin.
It is clear that one CAN commit a mortal sin in an interior way alone…in ones will. And that one need not “act” on it in order to commit a mortal sin.
The fact that one did not carry something to action per se does not mean one did not commit a mortal sin. If I decide to go steal $10,000 with full knowledge and complete consent…making a “personal choice”…that is already a mortal sin …even if I do not do it. ( I am “afraid of getting caught” etc)
Lets say a person has the thoughts …the temptations to steal $5000 from ones employer…and one is actually tempted strongly and proposals of how one could easily get away with it tonight occur to one…the money is there…one knows no one will miss it…you will not get caught…etc …
But one does not. One later …in a more calmer state think…“did I commit a mortal sin of deciding to steal that money?”…??? One is not sure…
Well from the fact that one could have easily have done the action of stealing…and gotten away with it…and from the fact that one did not. One can take such as a “sign” that one seems not to have had full knowledge and complete consent…otherwise in that situation one would have done it right then.
So I will agree that it is true that at one can perhaps take as a “sign” that one did not give full consent or have full knowledge --from the fact that you could easily done the thing one was tempted to…but did not. This is can be at times a “sign” in certain circumstances to help one judge… if one did not have the knowledge and consent needed…
Also the “compulsive thought” from OCD and the like that some suffer from (see Jimmy’s post above) is also is a different matter…
Or I can decide with full knowledge to and deliberate consent to steal the money…I freely will to do this…even though I know it is gravely sinful. Such is mortal sin.
It is clear that one CAN commit a mortal sin in an interior way alone…in ones will. And that one need not “act” on it in order to commit a mortal sin.
The fact that one did not carry something to action per se does not mean one did not commit a mortal sin. If I decide to go steal $10,000 with full knowledge and complete consent…making a “personal choice”…that is already a mortal sin …even if I do not do it. ( I am “afraid of getting caught” etc)
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fbl9
Guest
thoughtfulone…it is by the choosing to think about an act that is sinful.
All mortal sins are mortal because they destroy charity. Love thy neighbourUsing the “road rage” had a hard day at work and you have someone that needs to take their foot off the big pedal and put it on the skinny pedal in front of you.You miss your turn and then get cut off,in frustration you think people like outa be… (harmful thing)
- you think to yourself no i would want that to happen to that person, forgive my anger Lord. And you continue on your way home.
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Bookcat
Guest
(re-written a bit…and spelling fixed )
Look …
Lets say a person has the thoughts …the temptations to steal $5000 from ones employer…and one is actually tempted strongly and proposals of how one could easily get away with it tonight occur to one…the money is there…one knows no one will miss it…you will not get caught…etc …
But one does not. One later …in a more calmer state thinks…“did I commit a mortal sin of deciding to steal that money…did it really decide…etc?”…??? One is not sure…
Well from the fact that one could have easily have done the action of stealing…and gotten away with it…and from the fact that one did not. One can take such as one “sign” that one seems not to have had full knowledge and complete consent…otherwise in that situation one would have done it right then.
So I will agree that it is true that at one can perhaps take as one “sign” that one did not give full consent or have full knowledge --from the fact that you could easily done the thing one was tempted to…but did not. This is can be at times one “sign” in certain circumstances to help one judge… if one did not have the knowledge and consent needed…
Also the “compulsive thought” from OCD and the like that some suffer from (see Jimmy’s post above) is also is a different matter…
Or I can decide with full knowledge to and deliberate consent to steal the money…I freely will to do this…even though I know it is gravely sinful. Such is mortal sin.
It is clear that one CAN commit a mortal sin in an interior way alone…in ones will. And that one need not “act” on it in order to commit a mortal sin.
The fact that one did not carry something to action per se does not mean one did not commit a mortal sin. If I decide to go steal $10,000 with full knowledge and complete consent…making a “personal choice”…that is already a mortal sin …even if I do not do it. ( I am “afraid of getting caught” etc)
)Look …
Lets say a person has the thoughts …the temptations to steal $5000 from ones employer…and one is actually tempted strongly and proposals of how one could easily get away with it tonight occur to one…the money is there…one knows no one will miss it…you will not get caught…etc …
But one does not. One later …in a more calmer state thinks…“did I commit a mortal sin of deciding to steal that money…did it really decide…etc?”…??? One is not sure…
Well from the fact that one could have easily have done the action of stealing…and gotten away with it…and from the fact that one did not. One can take such as one “sign” that one seems not to have had full knowledge and complete consent…otherwise in that situation one would have done it right then.
So I will agree that it is true that at one can perhaps take as one “sign” that one did not give full consent or have full knowledge --from the fact that you could easily done the thing one was tempted to…but did not. This is can be at times one “sign” in certain circumstances to help one judge… if one did not have the knowledge and consent needed…
Also the “compulsive thought” from OCD and the like that some suffer from (see Jimmy’s post above) is also is a different matter…
Or I can decide with full knowledge to and deliberate consent to steal the money…I freely will to do this…even though I know it is gravely sinful. Such is mortal sin.
It is clear that one CAN commit a mortal sin in an interior way alone…in ones will. And that one need not “act” on it in order to commit a mortal sin.
The fact that one did not carry something to action per se does not mean one did not commit a mortal sin. If I decide to go steal $10,000 with full knowledge and complete consent…making a “personal choice”…that is already a mortal sin …even if I do not do it. ( I am “afraid of getting caught” etc)
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
I will agree that when planning a murder or some such thing, one may be able to commit a serious interior sin, although, honestly, I think God’s mercy is such that someone will not spend eternity in hell for something they didn’t do if that person doesn’t confess it to a priest, and I still see the passage in Matthew as referring to looking at a woman lustfully as a stumble and not a fall.
However, I will never be convinced that “deciding” not to attend mass and then going anyway is still a mortal sin.
The Law is there to prevent a total breakdown of society. Follow the Law and society wins. It is a blueprint for how we as selfish, sinful people can coexist peacefully and serve God who loves us. When we commit an interior sin, it certainly pre-disposes us to go even further next time and commit an outward one, but society remains intact, and we are still trying our best to serve God (so long as we reject sinful thoughts and don’t put them into action), even if we stumble in thought. God knows this. Just the fact that a person repents in his mind and heart shows his love for God and I don’t see this person burning in hell.
However, I will never be convinced that “deciding” not to attend mass and then going anyway is still a mortal sin.
The Law is there to prevent a total breakdown of society. Follow the Law and society wins. It is a blueprint for how we as selfish, sinful people can coexist peacefully and serve God who loves us. When we commit an interior sin, it certainly pre-disposes us to go even further next time and commit an outward one, but society remains intact, and we are still trying our best to serve God (so long as we reject sinful thoughts and don’t put them into action), even if we stumble in thought. God knows this. Just the fact that a person repents in his mind and heart shows his love for God and I don’t see this person burning in hell.
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fbl9
Guest
Thank you Bookcat for your explaining. Now i will be guarding my thoughts much more closely now.What you have showed me is just what i needed.
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fbl9
Guest
in situation one the person realised that the thought of outa be (harmful thing) was wrong to think of doing, thus not giving full consent.
in situation two the person did commit sin because they consented to the thought of doing harm.
IOW it’s not the first thought it’s what follows the first thought that determines the degree of consent.
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
It’s not a serious sin unless you have stopped debating about it and are sure that you would commit the sin given the chance. Just thinking about killing someone is not a mortal sin.
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Bookcat
Guest
B
Bookcat
Guest
If one realizes that one should stop thinking about it…that it a grave matter to continue…but goes ahead and with full knowledge and deliberate consent (the consent needs of course to be complete consent) and continues to think about it…yes such can be a mortal sin.
In interior sins too…to commit a moral sin one needs not only grave matter but full knowledge and complete consent.
Temptations can be very long and return often…such does not mean ANY sin has occurred.
Also a person with scrupulosity or scruples to one degree or another can be in a different boat to. Such readers need to remember this. And follow the directives of their confessor etc…they are usually told to steer by “certainty” and basically ignore the doubts…(but each can ask their confessor)
(all things being equal…remember “temptation”… can be strong and repeated…and emotions can move us in a way that limits our full consent…or obsessive thoughts etc can bother a person…)
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Bookcat
Guest
This too can help:
The classic stages of temptation when we are tempted are:
(one can either consent fully and thus engage in things willingly …or not consent and perhaps thus grow in virtue…following Christ!)
Now it can often happen that one begins to “partially consent” but then rejects it and thus does not give full consent.
When one is tempted…
**Some signs that one lacked consent or gave only perhaps “partial consent” not full consent and thus did not commit mortal sin in these kinds of temptations **
In the end …if there is still doubt that one consented:
if the person is lax …one can urge confession for it is likely they consented otherwise it would not bother them…
for the delicate conscience or the scrupulous or one with scruples…they may as a practical approach rule out full consent for if they would have fully consented…it can be said that would likely know it. (one can ask their confessor if this applies to them)
(Based on A Tanquery… he bases things on S. Augustine…but much of this is simply repeated in various places…for it is the basics in judging such)
The classic stages of temptation when we are tempted are:
- Suggestion (the evil is proposed to us in some way) this can be quite attractive …can be thoughts that happen, ideas, proposals etc.
- Pleasure (a kind of automatic pleasure can happen from the suggestion) this pleasure can just happen…one is not “trying to have it” not wanting it…this is just a reaction…or the proposal ‘is attractive’ etc
(one can either consent fully and thus engage in things willingly …or not consent and perhaps thus grow in virtue…following Christ!)
Now it can often happen that one begins to “partially consent” but then rejects it and thus does not give full consent.
When one is tempted…
**Some signs that one lacked consent or gave only perhaps “partial consent” not full consent and thus did not commit mortal sin in these kinds of temptations **
- If even though there was some instinctive pleasure or attaction …we do not want it…we are unhappy or horrified about the evil…or struggle to not be overcome …we turn to God in Prayer --these are some signs of no consent (if of course we stay in this stage…and do not later consent)
- If one hesitates for a moment but then does not want to sin and so rejects it and does not give full consent (thus a fault against prudence)
- If one resists but the resistance is half hearted…one does resist but it is weak or slow…but in the end one rejects it…such would seem to be half consent and thus venial
In the end …if there is still doubt that one consented:
if the person is lax …one can urge confession for it is likely they consented otherwise it would not bother them…
for the delicate conscience or the scrupulous or one with scruples…they may as a practical approach rule out full consent for if they would have fully consented…it can be said that would likely know it. (one can ask their confessor if this applies to them)
(Based on A Tanquery… he bases things on S. Augustine…but much of this is simply repeated in various places…for it is the basics in judging such)
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Thoughtfulone
Guest
From the theologians I have read, it is not a grave sin to dwell on oneself committing a grave sin (so a murder fantasy is venial). It is only grave if one intends to act that sin out, and this for serious sins such as murder and adultery. I have never heard anyone discuss the whole missing mass scenario, but honestly, missing mass is so far below murder and adultery on the sinfulness scale, that I just don’t believe for a second that deciding not to go and then changing one’s mind is a mortal sin that eternally separates one from God. It just doesn’t extrapolate that far. I’ll ask a priest though.
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