Inter-Communion with Protestants

[liturgyluver]

The German Evangelisch Kirche (EKD)is a United/Lutheran/Reformed federation of churches formed after the Prussian Union forced the separate Lutheran and Reformed churches to join together. They have full altar and pulpit fellowship with each other despite denominational differences (similar to the ELCA having full fellowship with the Episcopal church here in the USA). The SELK in Germany is similar to the LCMS church here. Despite the fact that both churches have “evangelisch” in their names, there are some fairly big differences in practice and doctrine.

Another motley crew

A Catholic friend of mine once went to a SELK service in Germany and said the service seemed much “higher” than catholism in the way the Eucharist was celebrated!

 

[CutlerB]

A Catholic friend of mine once went to a SELK service in Germany and said the service seemed much “higher” than catholism in the way the Eucharist was celebrated!

Which I would not find hard to believe from what I have seen in Masses here.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

You’re right about baptists, but I was thinking more about the Christian context in Germany as this is what the article was about. In the German context, evangelical means the protestant church also known as the EKD (Evangelical Church in Germany (Deutschland) which is a federation of Lutheran and Reformed denominations and which does not have a symbolic view of the Eucharist.

What I originally commented on was a person upset that more respect wasn’t shown to other denominations’ communion. It didn’t seem like they were concerned with this particular church, but the fact that someone was calling protestant communion grape juice and crackers. I was just pointing out that a majority do use that and are perfectly fine with calling it as they actually see it: grape juice and crackers. I don’t care what protestants use, it isn’t what I receive at Mass.

 

[liturgyluver]

What I originally commented on was a person upset that more respect wasn’t shown to other denominations’ communion. It didn’t seem like they were concerned with this particular church, but the fact that someone was calling protestant communion grape juice and crackers. I was just pointing out that a majority do use that and are perfectly fine with calling it as they actually see it: grape juice and crackers. I don’t care what protestants use, it isn’t what I receive at Mass.

I understand what you are saying, but I would still take issue that a majority use grape juice and crackers. Even if you include the pentecostal churches - which are outside tradition of manstream protestantism - it would be a significant minority. If you just include the mainstream denominations - Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, - it would be a smaller minority. The poster who challenged this was correctly inferring that many protestants would be upset by this description of how they see the Eucharist - and this is about mutual respect to our fellow Christians.

 

[liturgyluver]

Which I would not find hard to believe from what I have seen in Masses here.

Oh dear! And from what I have seen German Catholic masses are conducted more reverently than they are in most places in the world.

 

[CutlerB]

Oh dear! And from what I have seen German Catholic masses are conducted more reverently than they are in most places in the world.

I wasn’t making a general statement, since I haven’t been to many German Masses. However, many of those I have seen, were awkward at one point or another.

 

[Contarini]

That is not necessarily a throw away comment, many Protestant churches deny the sacrificial nature of the Holy Communion/Last supper and as such don’t feel bound to use grape wine and wheat bread to “do this in memorial of Him”. In fact grape juice and crackers are perfectly acceptable symbolic reference points for many modern protestant groups.

Right, but not these Protestants. In context, the remark was a poorly informed caricature.

Lutherans believe in the Real Presence. The “Evangelical” church in Germany is a united coalition of regional churches including both Lutheran and Reformed churches. But even the Reformed hold to a stronger view of the Presence and treat communion much more reverently than the typical American evangelical church with which folks on this forum are familiar.

The OP is ambiguous because it could be taken in two ways:

1. A mutual recognition of each other’s orders and sacraments, such as Catholics look for with the Eastern churches and Protestants typically work toward with each other. This is indeed unlikely or impossible given the lack of valid orders on the Protestant side.
2. A corporate reunion in which the Catholic Church would supply what was deficient in Protestant orders. This would require some humility on the Protestant side and a good deal of graciousness and flexibility on the Catholic side, but it’s possible.

However, the same questions apply to doctrine as well. Possibility 1 (mutual recognition) is perhaps not totally impossible, but it’s pretty hard to imagine–could the Catholic Church really come to interpret the Protestant confessions in an orthodox sense? And even if this happened, would the Protestant churches be able to get their members on board with this interpretation? (This is a problem in Anglican-Catholic dialogue.) The worry on the Catholic side would be that even if some ecumenists on the Protestant side put a Catholic interpretation on the Confessions, reunion on this basis might include a large number of folks who didn’t accept this interpretation. And I think it’s a huge stretch to imagine an honest interpretation of the Confessions that wouldn’t contradict Catholic doctrine. The “Tract 90” interpretation of the 39 Articles is dubious enough. Lutheran and confessional Reformed churches have much more detailed statements.

So I think there would have to be some kind of corporate repentance in which the Protestants repudiated elements of their heritage. And that isn’t going to happen on any sizeable scale, barring a miracle or some other radical and unforeseeable development.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Oh dear! And from what I have seen German Catholic masses are conducted more reverently than they are in most places in the world.

It’s regional, just as it is in the U.S. As in the U.S., areas that are traditionally Catholic (like Bavaria) look quite different from “diaspora” regions (in the German context, this means areas where people settled after WWII, having been displaced from their original regions–lots of Catholics were displaced in this way, and in my experience these diaspora Catholics tend to be more liberal both doctrinally and liturgically).

Edwin

 

[twf]

I understand what you are saying, but I would still take issue that a majority use grape juice and crackers. Even if you include the pentecostal churches - which are outside tradition of manstream protestantism - it would be a significant minority. If you just include the mainstream denominations - Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, - it would be a smaller minority. The poster who challenged this was correctly inferring that many protestants would be upset by this description of how they see the Eucharist - and this is about mutual respect to our fellow Christians.

I think you are being overly optimistic here. In Germany or Europe in general you are probabky correxct… but If you factor in the rest of the world, especially Africa and Latin America, I would imagine Pentecostalism and Evangelicalism (in the low church American sense of the term) would have far more practicing adherents than the so called “mainline” churches.

 

[CutlerB]

It’s regional, just as it is in the U.S. As in the U.S., areas that are traditionally Catholic (like Bavaria) look quite different from “diaspora” regions (in the German context, this means areas where people settled after WWII, having been displaced from their original regions–lots of Catholics were displaced in this way, and in my experience these diaspora Catholics tend to be more liberal both doctrinally and liturgically).

Edwin

I live in the Catholic diaspora of Northern Germany. Bavaria will be quite different, absolutely.

 

[GKC]

Right, but not these Protestants. In context, the remark was a poorly informed caricature.

Lutherans believe in the Real Presence. The “Evangelical” church in Germany is a united coalition of regional churches including both Lutheran and Reformed churches. But even the Reformed hold to a stronger view of the Presence and treat communion much more reverently than the typical American evangelical church with which folks on this forum are familiar.

The OP is ambiguous because it could be taken in two ways:

1. A mutual recognition of each other’s orders and sacraments, such as Catholics look for with the Eastern churches and Protestants typically work toward with each other. This is indeed unlikely or impossible given the lack of valid orders on the Protestant side.
2. A corporate reunion in which the Catholic Church would supply what was deficient in Protestant orders. This would require some humility on the Protestant side and a good deal of graciousness and flexibility on the Catholic side, but it’s possible.

However, the same questions apply to doctrine as well. Possibility 1 (mutual recognition) is perhaps not totally impossible, but it’s pretty hard to imagine–could the Catholic Church really come to interpret the Protestant confessions in an orthodox sense? And even if this happened, would the Protestant churches be able to get their members on board with this interpretation? (This is a problem in Anglican-Catholic dialogue.) The worry on the Catholic side would be that even if some ecumenists on the Protestant side put a Catholic interpretation on the Confessions, reunion on this basis might include a large number of folks who didn’t accept this interpretation. And I think it’s a huge stretch to imagine an honest interpretation of the Confessions that wouldn’t contradict Catholic doctrine. The “Tract 90” interpretation of the 39 Articles is dubious enough. Lutheran and confessional Reformed churches have much more detailed statements.

So I think there would have to be some kind of corporate repentance in which the Protestants repudiated elements of their heritage. And that isn’t going to happen on any sizeable scale, barring a miracle or some other radical and unforeseeable development.

Edwin

But the Articles are not confessional for Anglicans, generally.

Just making my usual point.

GKC

 

[JamesTheJust]

Hopefully not the Swedish Lutheran church. Archbishop Jackelen is their new head.

It is not only Jackelén’s motto and her unwillingness to put Jesus ahead of Muhammed that has evoked strong feelings among many committed Christians. During her questioning in Uppsala, the new archbishop also said that the Church of Sweden has more in common with other religions than with other Christian churches, that the Virgin Birth must be understood metaphorically, that hell doesn’t exist and that the Biblical texts should not be taken as truth.

.
d-intl.com/2013/10/15/swedish-archbishop-prefers-allah/?lang=en

Now this is just plain depressing. The extent to which some Protestant denominations have fallen from the faith truly saddens me sometimes. It just goes to show what happens when one makes oneself the ultimate authority, and all boundaries and rules disappear.

 

[KendraDZ1902]

I understand what you are saying, but I would still take issue that a majority use grape juice and crackers. Even if you include the pentecostal churches - which are outside tradition of manstream protestantism - it would be a significant minority. If you just include the mainstream denominations - Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, - it would be a smaller minority. The poster who challenged this was correctly inferring that many protestants would be upset by this description of how they see the Eucharist - and this is about mutual respect to our fellow Christians.

Churches that view communion as symbol and their number of members:
Baptists:100 million, Anabaptists:5 million, Modern Protestantism (including Pentecostalism, Assemblies of God, and the like) 429 million. Non-denominational: 80 million.

Protestant churches that view communion as not a symbol:
Lutheran: 75 million Methodists:75 million. Reformed Churches (I’m not sure what they are but I will include them with these) 75 million Presbyterian: 45 million.

Clearly, more protestants view it as a symbol. So, stereotypically speaking and statistically speaking, protestants communion is grape juice and crackers and they view it symbolically.

The great Wikipedia gave me my numbers. It was the easiest way since they have a “list of Christian denominations by numbers” thing.

 

[Contarini]

But the Articles are not confessional for Anglicans, generally.

Just making my usual point.

GKC

Right. My point was simply that the Articles are fairly brief and non-polemical, and yet reconciling them with Catholic doctrine is quite a stretch. It would be much harder to do so with the Continental confessions.

Edwin

 

[liturgyluver]

It’s regional, just as it is in the U.S. As in the U.S., areas that are traditionally Catholic (like Bavaria) look quite different from “diaspora” regions (in the German context, this means areas where people settled after WWII, having been displaced from their original regions–lots of Catholics were displaced in this way, and in my experience these diaspora Catholics tend to be more liberal both doctrinally and liturgically).

Edwin

I have been to mass all over Germany and haven’t really noticed a significant difference liturgically, apart from the Bavarian churches where High Mass often uses great polyphonic settings. I have noticed that the liturgical texts and hymns are alamost always contained in the same books and also that German catholics really sing well.

 

[Contarini]

I have been to mass all over Germany and haven’t really noticed a significant difference liturgically, apart from the Bavarian churches where High Mass often uses great polyphonic settings. I have noticed that the liturgical texts and hymns are alamost always contained in the same books and also that German catholics really sing well.

Yes, the music is definitely better in Bavaria. Some of it of course is just that there are more Catholics, so there’s a broader range. The “Theatinerkirche” in Munich had probably the best (Western Rite) Catholic liturgy I’ve ever experienced and the best preaching as well. (The Theatine Order no longer exists, I believe–at any rate, the church is now run by Dominicans.)

Maybe Bavarian Catholics would have invited me to receive communion with them, too, if I’d given them the chance. Catholics in Niedersachsen (specifically Wolfenbuttel) certainly did.

Edwin

 

[liturgyluver]

Yes, the music is definitely better in Bavaria. Some of it of course is just that there are more Catholics, so there’s a broader range. The “Theatinerkirche” in Munich had probably the best (Western Rite) Catholic liturgy I’ve ever experienced and the best preaching as well. (The Theatine Order no longer exists, I believe–at any rate, the church is now run by Dominicans.)

Maybe Bavarian Catholics would have invited me to receive communion with them, too, if I’d given them the chance. Catholics in Niedersachsen (specifically Wolfenbuttel) certainly did.

Edwin

Thanks Edwin - Next time I visit Munich I will pay that Church a visit. I know based on experience that in practice in Germany (and in France too) Catholics often invite all Christans to receive - though I know they are not supposed to.

 

[liturgyluver]

Churches that view communion as symbol and their number of members:
Baptists:100 million, Anabaptists:5 million, Modern Protestantism (including Pentecostalism, Assemblies of God, and the like) 429 million. Non-denominational: 80 million.

Protestant churches that view communion as not a symbol:
Lutheran: 75 million Methodists:75 million. Reformed Churches (I’m not sure what they are but I will include them with these) 75 million Presbyterian: 45 million.

Clearly, more protestants view it as a symbol. So, stereotypically speaking and statistically speaking, protestants communion is grape juice and crackers and they view it symbolically.

The great Wikipedia gave me my numbers. It was the easiest way since they have a “list of Christian denominations by numbers” thing.

You missed out 85 million Anglicans but what is a few million between friends, eh

 

[Contarini]

Thanks Edwin - Next time I visit Munich I will pay that Church a visit. I know based on experience that in practice in Germany (and in France too) Catholics often invite all Christans to receive - though I know they are not supposed to.

If you’re a single male, you should be warned, though: a good friend of mine attended that church regularly while living in Munich and he’s now a Dominican himself

Edwin

 

[believerdoc]

no it won’t.

Catholics have Valid Holy Orders and the Real True Presence with Adoration and Benediction. (Orthodox also have the True Presence and Valid Holy Orders but I do not know how their Benediction/Adoration works if they have it)

I know that many protestant churches just serve grape juice and crackers. They do not take Jesus’ last supper seriously.

I must take offense to this statement. First we do use grape juice in place of fermented wine but we do not use crackers; we use a small piece of unleavened bread much like would have been employed at the original Last Supper. Secondly to say that we do not take the Lord’s Supper seriously is insulting. We celebrate the ordinance EVERY SUNDAY with deep reverence, respect, and in memory and in honor of our Lord Jesus. While we believe much differently than you it is counter productive to be so insulting to those that do not share your beliefs in a forum that is suppose to compare and contrast beliefs not ridicule them.