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a1prieto
Guest
Are there any places in the Bible that reference prayer to the dead, Mary or saints, to intercede for us?
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Trishie
Guest
Regarding asking Mary to intercede for us, the early Church accepted that is very evident because the gospel of St John makes a point of telling us of the successful intercession of Mary at the Wedding feast of Cana. See my signature.
If I can ask to intercede for me or anyone else, why can we not also ask the intercession of more holy persons than we are, the saints in heaven. Biblical basis for asking others to intercede with and for us
Jesus said, “if two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be granted by my Father in heaven.” [Matthew 18:19]
“Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” James 5:16
If I can ask to intercede for me or anyone else, why can we not also ask the intercession of more holy persons than we are, the saints in heaven. Biblical basis for asking others to intercede with and for us
Jesus said, “if two of you on earth agree to ask anything at all, it will be granted by my Father in heaven.” [Matthew 18:19]
“Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.” James 5:16
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Are Mary and the saints dead? Or are they alive in Christ?
Before Jesus broke the bonds of death, heaven was closed to all, even the just. Though the just were ‘at peace’ even then, knowing of their coming salvation.
But after Jesus, we are told in the Bible that we will live in Christ.
That we will be one with Him.
Now how could we be both ‘dead’ and ‘alive in Christ’ at the same time?
In Revelation we are told of the prayers of the elders in heaven. Now, obviously they must be dead people (they aren’t saints, and they are in heaven, not on earth). Now, what would they pray for for themselves? They wouldn’t need to pray for anything for themselves --they’re in heaven. So --for whom would they pray? For those on earth.
Doesn’t take much of a stretch to think then if they pray for us, we can pray to them. Especially if we know that, historically speaking, prayer NEVER was ‘limited’ to ‘communication to ONLY God’.
As for intercessors, there is only one Mediator between God and us --and that’s Jesus. But that doesn’t mean we can’t intercede for each other as well. All prayer (even our own ‘secular’ communications’) has its ultimate start and aim in God. After all, without God we would never exist to communicate, and without God, we could do nothing, so in that sense every thought and action we make is made either FOR God (doing good) or AGAINST God (doing evil), even if WE never even ‘think’ of God as we think and do those actions.
Remember, Christ also told us to “call no man father”. . .but later in his epistles St. PAUL refers to HIMSELF as a father many times to his readers. UM, if Christ literally meant what Scripture says, then we would only call our female parents ‘mother’ and refer to the male parent as ‘hey you’. . .
It is a mistake to try to treat Scripture as though it contained every word and teaching Christ ever uttered, and the exact meaning thereof, and so if something is not explicitly stated as being ‘in the Bible’ then it can’t be ‘true teaching.’ Catholics are not ‘Bible only’ Christians, remember.
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fred_conty
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I haven’t see anywhere in the bible it says “don’t pray to mary or the saints”.
Our tradition created the bible not the other way around.
Just a thought.
Our tradition created the bible not the other way around.
Just a thought.
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R_C
Guest
Consider what the Lord reveals in Job 42:8:
Consider the most wonderful example, that of the Blessed Virgin, whom we honor with hyperdulia, that is, a veneration greater than that offered to all the saints: do you think there’s some difference between the Lord receiving a prayer from you and the Lord receiving your prayer from the immaculate hands of His Mother, the Blessed Virgin?
The Lord accepts the intercession of his righteous servant on behalf of the sinner. And as for whether the righteous (righteous = holy = saint) are dead or alive, remember the words of Christ:
Thus, the intercession of the righteous, living servants is gladly accepted by the Lord on our behalf, just like the intercession of the righteous, living Job was accepted. It is not to the righteous servant that we pray to, nor is the righteous servant who forgives our sins and listens to our prayers. No, our prayers are for God, for God alone, but instead of presenting it ourselves, we ask the righteous servant to present our prayers on our behalf.
Consider the most wonderful example, that of the Blessed Virgin, whom we honor with hyperdulia, that is, a veneration greater than that offered to all the saints: do you think there’s some difference between the Lord receiving a prayer from you and the Lord receiving your prayer from the immaculate hands of His Mother, the Blessed Virgin?
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Cachonga
Guest
Just to give my 2 cents worth, I would first point out that those who have left this life to go to Heaven are described as being asleep in the Lord (see 1 Cor 15, 1 Thes 4 and 2 Peter 3 for a few Scripture references). Job’s friends were told to ask Job to pray for them, but Job had not “fallen asleep” before God told them to do this (and Job had to be living here on Earth in order to make the sacrifice for his friends, right?). And let’s take a closer look at Matt 18:19
Trishie:
While it’s true that we can pray for each other (and we have been commanded to do so), there is nothing that indicates this applies to anyone who is “asleep”. One last question - how loud do you have to pray to be heard by someone who is “asleep in the Lord”? I remember that Jesus called in a loud voice for Lazarus to come forth (and He’s God incarnate!).
I notice it say, “if two of you on earth” (emphasis mine). Do you think those who are “asleep in the Lord” are still “on Earth”? Could you please tell me which church document would back up such a claim? As far as the Elders found in Revelation, who are these guys? If I’m going to pray to someone besides God, I’d like a name. Is one of them Mary? How about Peter, or Paul? Maybe Abraham is one of them. We’re not told, and I believe for a very good reason, namely, don’t pray to anyone EXCEPT God!
While it’s true that we can pray for each other (and we have been commanded to do so), there is nothing that indicates this applies to anyone who is “asleep”. One last question - how loud do you have to pray to be heard by someone who is “asleep in the Lord”? I remember that Jesus called in a loud voice for Lazarus to come forth (and He’s God incarnate!).
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onemangang
Guest
** Raphael? **
Tobit 12:5 So** Tobiah called Raphael **and said, “Take as your wages half of all that you have brought back, and farewell!”
Tobit 12:6** Raphael called the two of them aside** privately and said to them: “Bless God and give him thanks before all the living for the good things he has done for you, by blessing and extolling his name in song. Proclaim before all with due honor the deeds of God, and do not be slack in thanking him
Tobit 12:12** Now when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and likewise whenever you used to bury the dead.***
Tobit 12:15** I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”**
Looks like **St. Raphael the arch-angel **said he intercedes in Tobit!
Tobit 12:5 So** Tobiah called Raphael **and said, “Take as your wages half of all that you have brought back, and farewell!”
Tobit 12:6** Raphael called the two of them aside** privately and said to them: “Bless God and give him thanks before all the living for the good things he has done for you, by blessing and extolling his name in song. Proclaim before all with due honor the deeds of God, and do not be slack in thanking him
Tobit 12:12** Now when you, Tobit, and Sarah prayed, it was I who presented the record of your prayer before the Glory of the Lord; and likewise whenever you used to bury the dead.***
Tobit 12:15** I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand and serve before the Glory of the Lord.”**
Looks like **St. Raphael the arch-angel **said he intercedes in Tobit!
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stevekehl
Guest
If the saints in heaven are interceding for people how does that fit with verses that there is no more sadness or pain in heaven? Surely the saints feel sadness, pain worry, concern when people ask them to pray for their troubles. Also, if 10 people are praying to one saint at the same time, can that saint discern all the prayers at once?
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Cachonga
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First of all, I don’t find any place in Scripture where an angel is called a saint. Angels are messengers of God, and regularly come and go between Earth and Heaven (remember Jacob’s dream of the ladder to Heaven, and it was an angel that told Cornelius to send for Peter - angels do not (apparently) preach the Gospel).
Next, I don’t see where Tobit prayed to anyone but God. Raphael took his prayers and offerings to God, but, again, he;s an angel, and that’s pretty much what they do. And, let’s not forget, Raphael was disguised as a man during this time, so Tobit interacted with him the same way we would interact with another human being, so I find nothing here to even hint at praying to people who are asleep in Christ.
Lastly (though, admittedly, more a personal note than anything else), I do not consider the deuterocanonical books, including Tobit, to be inspired Scripture.Be that as it may, I do believe my previous comments sufficiently answer the assertions being made.
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MollyMac
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I know this is not what the tread is about, but the above red statement is quite untrue. Tradition did not “create the bible”. That would be like saying, 'The world created God."
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MollyMac
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I have always pondered this. There is absolutly nothing in the Scriptures that proves this doctrine. No verses whatsoever. If a Saint is able to discern the prayers of 10 or 100’s of Catholics -I’ve been on Prayer Intentions- then that would assume they have some sort of omnipotence/omniscience. I find the Bible to be silent on this. I realize that Revelation 5:8 is used, but never once does the verse, or any other, say the creatures and elders have the knowledge of what the prayers of the saints are. You would have to read into that passage something that is clearly not there. When I combine that with Jesus’ words in Matthew 6:9-“Pray then like this: Our Father,” I come to the realization that I should pray to the truine God only.
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onemangang
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First of all, people in heaven are not bound by the same linear time as we are here on earth!
Second, looks like you have to reconcile your view with what the bible says in Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, **I saw underthe altarthe souls of those who had been slainbecause of the word of Godand the testimony they had maintained.10They called out in a loud voice, “How long,*Sovereign Lord,holy and true,until you judge the inhabitants of the earthand avenge our blood?”11Then each of them was given a white robe,and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e
]*were killed just as they had been.
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onemangang
Guest
I don’t see anywhere in the bible it says trinity, or free will either, that doesn’t meen the Trinity, and free will are untrue!
Is Raphael interceeding by taking the prayers and offerings to God?
You not believing the the Deuterocanoniacal are inspired, doesn’t make them any less inspired.
So do you think that for more than 1500 years that people were just unable to discern that the deutero’s were uninspired?
What makes you superior in discernment to them?
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R_C
Guest
Do you not know what the virtue of holy indifference is? And do you not know that Christ said that His followers would be able to do His works and even greater works with faith? Surely the imperfections of our flesh limit our faith (we have seen this happen even to the very apostles chosen by Christ), but in the presence of God, with a perfect faith, why would the saints not be able to intercede for many throughout the ages? After all, eternity is outside of time and space…it is not November 2012, in heaven…it simply is. These are great mysteries that we barely are able to express, and such arguments do not even scratch the walls of the majestic, centuries-old building of Sacred Tradition. However, the doors of that building are open to all, even to those who not yet accept those teachings…do enter, and start going through a few of those books. You cannot read them all…nobody can…but God Himself will guide your hands in the choice if you seek the truth, for it is written: seek and you shall find…you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.
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onemangang
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St. Michael the archangel intercedes on behalf of Israel, even if you negate that he was asked for intercession, and the prophet Daniel prayed to God ALONE for help, you still can’t get past the fact that the prayers to God ALONE, are heard and acted upon by the Angels in heaven by God’s commision!
So, the same lame argument of how can the Saints hear our prayers if they are not omniscient, or omnipresent, can be turned in on itself.
Are the Angels omniscient, or omnipresent? Then how do they hear prayers of the faithful in the millions, being prayed at the same time?
So, the same lame argument of how can the Saints hear our prayers if they are not omniscient, or omnipresent, can be turned in on itself.
Are the Angels omniscient, or omnipresent? Then how do they hear prayers of the faithful in the millions, being prayed at the same time?
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Evan
Guest
Saint is an English rendering of the Latin word Sanctus. Like Sanctus Lucus (holy Luke) would be Saint Luke.
Mark 8:38: If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels
Acts 10:22: The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.”
Rev 14:10: they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb
Of course in the Canon of Saints you will find St Michael, St Raphael, St Gabriel. Angels all.
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Ruthie_again
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The OP, a1prieto, asked,
(Cachonga, that’s why the book of Tobit in particular was tossed out by the Protestants: because it supports the idea of prayer to the saints.)
And Cachonga asked,
Cachonga also said, as many others have done,
Tobit 12:12-15, quoted above by OneManGang, is not a direct reference, but is indirect. If St. Raphael can carry our prayers to God, why can’t someone else? And why can’t we ask him, or someone else, to pray for us?
(Cachonga, that’s why the book of Tobit in particular was tossed out by the Protestants: because it supports the idea of prayer to the saints.)
And Cachonga asked,
Here are four examples of people whose mortal remains are on earth, yet they are alive with God:
Abraham, Issac, and Jacob must be living, since Jesus just said so. (To say otherwise is to take the second sentence out of context.) But they are also dead. See Gen. 49 for the tomb of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. And Moses appeared in the Transfiguration, but was buried in 2Ki 2:5-6.
Cachonga also said, as many others have done,
As has been pointed out many times in many threads, when we “pray” to Mary and the saints, we ask them to pray for us, to intercede for us. (The last line of the Hail Mary is “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us to the Lord our God…” (The other two lines are Lk 1:28 + 42, with names added.) Have you never prayed for anyone, or asked someone to pray for you? Same thing. One of the meanings of “pray” is to ask a favor. thefreedictionary.com/pray
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Cachonga
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These can be found very clearly within the Scriptures, but that’s not the topic.
I would say he’s “interceding” in the same way the UPS guy “intercedes” by delivering a package. Furthermore, the Scripture makes a distinction between Angels and Saints .
I would point out that the topic is not whether or not the deuterocanonical books are Scripture, so I won’t go down that rabbit trail. Next, I would hope people can see that, even though I don’t accept Tobit as Scripture, I am still responding to claims made from this source, not just saying, “It’s not Scripture, so it doesn’t matter”.
I believe if you read this account in Daniel you will find that Michael was helping Gabriel get through to Daniel with a message from God. Daniel was praying directly to God, the Angels were acting on orders from God, and what we see clearly is Angels functioning as God created them to function.
Excuse me, but where in Scripture do you find any Angel taking prayers to God from more than one person? I suppose a single Angel could take a bunch of prayers from people that pray in a group (like a prayer meeting or church service), but I’m unaware of anywhere in Scripture where an Angel takes prayers to God from more than one person at a time. I do find mention of multiple Angels going to and from Earth, and we know from Scripture that our Guarding Angel sees the face of God. In light of this, I don’t find any relevance to your question about Angels being omniscient or omnipresent.
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Cachonga
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The problem I have is that the Scriptures make a distinction between Saints and Angels, and we do find Angels doing specific jobs within Scripture (acting as messengers or conducting military like actions for example). Angels do not preach the Gospel (remember how Cornelius heard the Gospel?) or partake of any of the sacraments of the Church. Saints and Angels are NOT the same!
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Cachonga
Guest
Ruthie again:
I don’t see how this answers the question. Let’s not forget that Elijah also appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration, and he isn’t buried anywhere on Earth. Plus, what does the location of the physical body have to do with the question? You don’t have to go to the tomb of St. Peter to pray to him (or have I missed something?). You may want to explain and/or rephrase your response.
Again, the Angel was disguised as a human, and Tobit interacted with him in the same way we would interact with a coworker. Because he was an Angel, he was able to take Tobits prayer to God (because that’s what Angels do). Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where a real Saint (not an Angel who is called a saint) ever took someone’s prayer to God? Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where someone prayed to an Angel to interceed for them (keep in mind, Raphael doesn’t count because he was disguised as a human, and it’s already been pointed out that Tobit interacted with him as we would interact with any human)?
Another topic for another thread.
I don’t see how this answers the question. Let’s not forget that Elijah also appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration, and he isn’t buried anywhere on Earth. Plus, what does the location of the physical body have to do with the question? You don’t have to go to the tomb of St. Peter to pray to him (or have I missed something?). You may want to explain and/or rephrase your response.
I can ask my Pastor to pray for me, but if he was to go on a vacation with his wife and not take his phone, computer, or any other communication device, how would I ask him for prayer while he’s gone? We’re both in the Body of Christ. The fact is, I would not be able to communicate my need to him while he’s gone simply because he’s in a different place. Mary, Peter, Paul, and other real Saints (not Angels who are called saints) you may want to pray to, are in Heaven (in spite of where their body may be buried), which is a different place than Earth. Scripture gives no indication that communication is possible with these people (with the possible exception of the “Witch of Endor” incident, but that involes witchcraft and necromancy, which even the Catholic Church condemns).
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