Intercession of Mark

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TobiasRaph

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I’m a new “convert” from the Protestant realm, and a Catholic friend gave me a souvenir from a the cathedral in DC. It’s a coin with a picture of St. Mark and on the other side an inscription that reads

“St. Mark, the evangelist, Grant us the strength to live by your example, The wisdom to know the difference, and the belief to make a difference.”

Now coming from a Protestant background and defending the Catholic faith, I may be a little hyper aware of (and overthinking) the distinction between asking God for the strength and not St. Mark.

Am I wrong in thinking the inscription is worded incorrectly? Is this fuel for anti-catholic fire?
 
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It’s worded a little weirdly, but not really in a way that ought to be problematic vis-a-vis the intercession of the saints. Liturgical prayer for the feast days of saints makes constant reference to receiving strength and wisdom and faith from the example and intercession of the saints.

-Fr ACEGC
 
Maybe not problematic for your or me. But if my Protestant friend saw this on my shelf, or someone found this coin laying around. How could they not think Catholics pray to Mark as the granter of strength, wisdom, and belief.
 
Then why are we making more work for ourselves by circulating material that supports Protestant claims that we worship the saints, or pray directly to them for spiritual gifts?
 
Don’t overthink it. If people assume wrongly based on their ideological biases, that’s on them. If we avoided the things about which people could get the wrong idea, we’d never do anything. But they might get the wrong idea about us doing nothing, and so we’d have to do something, about which they’d get the wrong idea, etc.

In short, we don’t do what we do or say what we say or believe what we believe because we ran it by others. We do what we do in an effort to live the truth. We know the Saints intercede for us, and if someone has a question about that, we can answer it, and if they won’t be convinced, so be it. Pray for them.
 
I can apply your logic to a commentary, vlog or blog. When someone misspeaks and we know what they mean. And I agree, we shouldn’t hold back doing what’s right in fear that someone might misinterpret our intentions. But is it too much to ask to take a little bit of care in a case like this? Would you sell this if you owned a gift shop?

You have me pegged for overthinking things. But in my situation, I’m surrounded by protestants. I’m the only Catholic in my family and within my group of friends, so I’ve had a lot of explaining to do. And simple little coins like this make it harder.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statement “We do what we do in an effort to live the truth”. I just shake my head disappointedly when I wonder how many people have come across items like this that read a false statement that only certain people know what it’s supposed to mean. The eunuch on the other had was reading divine truth, but needed help to grasp it.

I know it’s a small simple coin with a Catholic target audience. And I’m not saying we all need to be theologians. I’m just uncomfortable with the lackadaisical handling of commonly misunderstood practices.

I want to thank you for taking the time to engage me in this discussion. I really appreciate it.

Found a link to the coin:
https://www.catholicshop.com/Religi...Mcpt67plGbFq2p6GxTauQ2VLENpEzJ-xoCh60QAvD_BwE
 
I ask people to do and give things to me all the time. I don’t explicitly acknowledge that everything they do and give ultimately comes from God or is done by His power, even though it does. I don’t see why it is different with the Saints, especially given their glorified nature which allows them to do and give even more.

Here is what the Church teaches:

Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium
Until the Lord shall come in His majesty, and all the angels with Him (266) and death being destroyed, all things are subject to Him,(277) some of His disciples are exiles on earth, some having died are purified, and others are in glory beholding “clearly God Himself triune and one, as He is”;(1*) but all in various ways and degrees are in communion in the same charity of God and neighbor and all sing the same hymn of glory to our God. For all who are in Christ, having His Spirit, form one Church and cleave together in Him.(268) Therefore the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who have gone to sleep in the peace of Christ is not in the least weakened or interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the perpetual faith of the Church, is strengthened by communication of spiritual goods.(2*) For by reason of the fact that those in heaven are more closely united with Christ, they establish the whole Church more firmly in holiness, lend nobility to the worship which the Church offers to God here on earth and in many ways contribute to its greater edification.(269)(3*) For after they have been received into their heavenly home and are present to the Lord,(270) through Him and with Him and in Him they do not cease to intercede with the Father for us,(4*) showing forth the merits which they won on earth through the one Mediator between God and man,(271) serving God in all things and filling up in their flesh those things which are lacking of the sufferings of Christ for His Body which is the Church.(272)(5*) Thus by their brotherly interest our weakness is greatly strengthened.
…
Nor is it by the title of example only that we cherish the memory of those in heaven, but still more in order that the union of the whole Church may be strengthened in the Spirit by the practice of fraternal charity.(277) For just as Christian communion among wayfarers brings us closer to Christ, so our companionship with the saints joins us to Christ, from Whom as from its Fountain and Head issues every grace and the very life of the people of God.(13*) It is supremely fitting, therefore, that we love those friends and coheirs of Jesus Christ, who are also our brothers and extraordinary benefactors, that we render due thanks to God for them (14*) and “suppliantly invoke them and have recourse to their prayers, their power and help in obtaining benefits from God through His Son, Jesus Christ, who is our Redeemer and Saviour.”(15*) For every genuine testimony of love shown by us to those in heaven, by its very nature tends toward and terminates in Christ who is the “crown of all saints,”(16*) and through Him, in God Who is wonderful in his saints and is magnified in them.(17*)
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TobiasRaph said:
Then why are we making more work for ourselves by circulating material that supports Protestant claims that we worship the saints, or pray directly to them for spiritual gifts?
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We do pray to saints.
Are we supposed to be afraid that our Protestant friends might “mind”?
 
You’d pray directly to St. Mark that he’d grant you strength, wisdom and belief?
 
Genesis315 said:
It is supremely fitting, therefore, that we love those friends and coheirs of Jesus Christ, who are also our brothers and extraordinary benefactors, that we render due thanks to God for them (14*) and “suppliantly invoke them and have recourse to their prayers, their power and help in obtaining benefits from God through His Son, Jesus Christ, who is our Redeemer and Saviour.”
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Thank you for your response. This helps my understanding even more, even though I’ve read many articles and watched many videos on this practice. This, for some reason, made things click for me.

I find this to be common in my journey. On the surface many Catholic practices seem idolatrous and heretical, but the more you dig the more truth you uncover.
 
TobiasRaph said:
“St. Mark, the evangelist, Grant us the strength to live by your example, The wisdom to know the difference, and the belief to make a difference.”
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A saint would “grant” one something by praying to God that He would grant the something.

I’m with you, however: I don’t like how it’s worded, either. Another problem with the prayer is, frankly, it doesn’t make sense. “The wisdom to know the difference”: what difference?

So, yes, I think it’s worded poorly. Overall, too, it just seems trite.

Moreover, there is simply no need to defend something just because Catholics have done it, or sell it, or buy it, or talk about it, or whatever. Catholics aren’t perfect, and their ideas, and the execution of them, are not foolproof. Unfortunately, cheap, tawdry, and sometimes downright superstitious gewgaws have plagued the Catholic Church for centuries.

Come to think of it, this “prayer” does not jibe with my experience of how Catholics write, speak, and pray about these things: I suspect, therefore, that it’s a poor translation from some other language.
 
This prayer is an odd echo of the Serenity Prayer from Reformed theologian Reinhold Niebuhr:
God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change,
the courage to change the things we can,
and the wisdom to know the difference
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This is popular in 12 step groups, so that puts a different spin on it. Still seems alittle obscure.
 
What most protestants fail to realize is that Catholicity does not remove anything from the Power of GOD but rather fully accepts the fact that HE allows us and the Saints in Heaven to participate in HIS plan.
We are not robots, HE loves us to a degree that we can never fully grasp.
When we ask someone for prayers of petition to GOD (not someone in Heaven) and HE grants the request. What weight does that “intercessory prayer” has, how is that understood by protestants?
It makes no difference with a Saint in Heaven. Everything is ultimately under GOD’s control.
But HE allows us to participate ACTIVELY, not as mere watchers. In fact I would posit to you that HE WANTS us to be fully engaged with HIS will, plan, love.
Peace!
 
Catholics understand that saints simply intercede on our behalf.

Catholics are also going to comprise the vast majority of people who get a souvenir coin from a Catholic cathedral. Protestants do not rush to get these souvenirs. You yourself are a convert.

If some Protestant did lay hands on such a coin and he wondered about it, the appropriate thing for him to do would be to ask a Catholic to explain it, just as you did here, rather than make a presumption or just go on a tirade without even discussing it.

As a Catholic, I don’t think it’s necessary for Catholics to word every souvenir, medal, prayer book, or other sacramental, or web page either, so that the wording will be explained in great detail for, or otherwise not raise questions in the mind of, any non-Catholic happening by.
 
Ever see the goofballs on YouTube? Always trying to alter or avoid the laws of physics. In a way, bible-based Christians are like those YouTubers. They are trying to avoid God’s laws as revealed by His Church to a certain extent. Trying to reinvent the faith. Epic fail.

In truth, it is they who have the problem. The Catholic Church has not, will not and cannot change. After 1,500 years of Christianity, the Communion of Saints was suddenly rejected by the reformers and those raised in such traditions with much shallower theology see problems everywhere. They are theological dog-paddlers staring into the deep end of the pool. The problem, sadly, is theirs for lack of understanding.

Now, as to your faith. Learn it, know it, live it. Tell them calmly and charitably. Do not expect them to believe you or agree with you. Expect them to criticize you and possibly ostracize you. That is the price of seeking truth.
 
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